Israel attacks humanitarian aid convoy in international waters

[AiR]

http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/

Thank you but I prefer it my way.


Hey fun news! Our swedish friends have been jailed! They're charged with illegally entering Israel! :lol:
So, they're on a ship in international waters, they're boarded by a foreign force, kidnapped and brought into Israel where they are jailed and accused of illegal entry!
That won't hold even in an israeli court!

Also Robert Fisk, arguably one of the most experienced middle east reporters in the world, has written a nice column on how western politicians are cowards.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...too-cowardly--to-help-save-lives-1987989.html

 

[Plissken]

what?

It is completely analagous to what the Israelis did. They stormed the boat.

The only reason i posted in this thread was seeing people react to this like the israeli put the peace activists in a line and shot them in the neck even if they basically had zero reliable facts of what exactly went down, and even after seeing the video and how it all wasn't so black and white. reminded me a lot of the news about police brutality i often see where rioting people throw rocks, bottles and whatever at the police and the police instantly get judged if they fire one rubber bullet back and the people taking part in the riot are made to be the innocent victims.

There is one problem with that - and trsut me fella, I work for the police, so I know exactly how you feel. But the known fact is that somewhere between eight and nineteen people are dead. And the side that was doing the attacking has claimed it was using paintball markers.

If you can't see the essential problem with this, then there is no hope. Because one side is lying.

 

[Nocturnal]

This depends on where you live.

I'm not sure I follow you, do you mean where in the UK, or where in the world? The British Armed Forces follow the same set of rules when it comes to intruders as the US, as I found when I worked (briefly) on a US station here in the UK. We're allowed to give a warning, escort off property, fire a warning shot only if absolutely necessary, and only return fire.

i got the impression since it was quoted

I actually quoted all of your post, but fair enough if you got the wrong end of the stick.

i was talking about the example situation in my earlier post, not in general. oh wait, i already said that in my previous post. besides, since there aren't much actual facts (reliable facts) out there, you can't say which of the kills were with reasonable force and which weren't.

Talking of reading previous posts, have you read any of mine in the last 7 pages which have effectively said that we're speculating through lack of facts?

i said that somewhere?

No, but you inferred that the Geneva Convention was meaningless through the fact that it has been broken in the past.

and please don't get me started on the "i know, i'm a soldier" bullshit.

I never intended in getting into a pissing contest with you, but as you should know, the discipline required in the military world is much higher than that in the world of a civilian. There's no accounting for experience in this thread frankly unless you were on board that ship yourself.

the 9 months i spent in the army were more than enough to see what kind of a kindergarten the army is. ironically one of the only things i did learn was how little sense the laws etc sometimes make if you were put in a real situation. spending that 9 months in the military police we trained situations where you had to think of how much force you use etc. another example situation: your unit is sent after an officer gone nuts who has already shot two of his own soldiers. you locate this officer (i mean locate physically, face to face) and he's holding a gun. you're not allowed to really do anything but to order him to put down his gun, because as long as he's not pointing it at you he's not threatening you with it. so all you can do is order him to put it down while he could point it at you and fire at you in a blink of an eye. a fair situation? i think in situations like this many would break the law.

Maybe they would, but that's not what we're debating here. The idea that ''most people would do it'' wouldn't save you in a court of law, where the fact would remain that you had broken it. I also hope the 'army kindergarten' jibe wasn't one directed at me. I don't serve in the US military, and I don't serve in the Army.

READ THIS BEFORE ANYONE POSTS BACK AT ME:
again, i'm not taking any sides so no need to post back at me with the "oh you think it was right to kill all these people" attitude.

Perhaps people got that idea from your posts effectively saying you'd have done the same thing, and that the activists deserved to be shot? Does anyone deserve to die?

 

[crookie]

Maybe they would, but that's not what we're debating here. The idea that ''most people would do it'' wouldn't save you in a court of law, where the fact would remain that you had broken it. I also hope the 'army kindergarten' jibe wasn't one directed at me. I don't serve in the US military, and I don't serve in the Army.

I don't know what we were debating, my point was you can't necessarily trust geneva convention when you attack an armed soldier, in a tough spot many will break it. i didn't say it's correct.
in finnish the word army means the whole deal, navy, air force, ground force etc. what's the actual word, defense forces or something?
the kindergarten comment wasn't specifically aimed at you, but what in some way concerns all armed forces in most countries (i think at least, haven't done that much research about it). all the silly formalities and useless crap that still exists in the armed forces in several countries, just because it's always been so (like the one exact way how you're supposed to wear all your military gear, being told how to fold your mattress correctly and whatever that makes a grown-up feel like a 10-year old). Sure this varies from country to country and i only assume it's a bit more relaxed in countries without mandatory service. part of what makes the finnish army feel like a kindergarten is that the service is mandatory yet there's basically zero chance of ever getting into action so training just feels completely useless.

Perhaps people got that idea from your posts effectively saying you'd have done the same thing, and that the activists deserved to be shot? Does anyone deserve to die?

i numerous times mentioned i was talking about an example scenario, and yes i might fire if someone attacked me with a knife intending to stab me. my point is this doesn't look like such a black and white slaughter some people make it out to be, and it looks like some of the activists might be to blame for the body count getting so big. still not taking sides because there isn't enough factual information available.

 

[tigger]

There is one problem with that - and trsut me fella, I work for the police, so I know exactly how you feel. But the known fact is that somewhere between eight and nineteen people are dead. And the side that was doing the attacking has claimed it was using paintball markers.

If you can't see the essential problem with this, then there is no hope. Because one side is lying.

According to an article (from the IDF?) that jetsetter posted earlier, the commandos were armed with paintball markers and pistols. Two commandos were shot, most likely with a pistol wrested from one of them (likely the commando who was thrown from the upper deck to the lower one). Both sides are spinning this hard though. The Israeli's omit the fact that their blockade is illegal in the first place. You can't illegally break an illegal blockade. But these "activists" seem to be full of shit as well. If the IDF had come on board that ship guns blazing there would be a lot more dead. And if their intent was outright murder, why didn't we see the same level of violence on the other ships?

There's no excuse for the Gaza blockade. The fact that my government refuses to condemn it disgusts me to no end. But as far as I'm concerned, the individuals on the Mavi Marmara have no one but themselves to blame for the violence. Would the Israeli's have been fair to them had they not resisted? Hell no, that's obvious. But they wouldn't be dead and it still would have cast a spotlight on the illegal blockade of Gaza.

 

[crookie]

It is completely analagous to what the Israelis did. They stormed the boat.

yes but doing resistance to the armed forces is a bit different than burglars. and not very many would try beating up burglars if they showed with handguns, you know someone's going to get hurt.

There is one problem with that - and trsut me fella, I work for the police, so I know exactly how you feel. But the known fact is that somewhere between eight and nineteen people are dead. And the side that was doing the attacking has claimed it was using paintball markers.

If you can't see the essential problem with this, then there is no hope. Because one side is lying.

sigh...i feel like i'm banging my head against a brick wall, i've tried to get my point across for several times now and apparently it's just not happening. i really can't be arsed to write it all again but it's in my previous posts. i don't know if someone has reading comprehension issues or if my english is that clumsy.
and i'm pretty sure there are two sides lying in this case, both trying to show themselves in the best light possible. i'm still waiting for more facts to come out.

 

[nomix]

The worst piece of shit spin so far:

Israel: Calling these guys terrorists
Boatpeople: That the Israelis shot into sleeping people

Fucking hell, both claims are so rediculous they remind me of daily broadcasts from Bagdad in 2005.

 

[Nocturnal]

in finnish the word army means the whole deal, navy, air force, ground force etc. what's the actual word, defense forces or something?

I think the term you're looking for is 'armed forces' (you actually used it further down in your post, too).

the kindergarten comment wasn't specifically aimed at you, but what in some way concerns all armed forces in most countries (i think at least, haven't done that much research about it). all the silly formalities and useless crap that still exists in the armed forces in several countries, just because it's always been so (like the one exact way how you're supposed to wear all your military gear, being told how to fold your mattress correctly and whatever that makes a grown-up feel like a 10-year old). Sure this varies from country to country and i only assume it's a bit more relaxed in countries without mandatory service. part of what makes the finnish army feel like a kindergarten is that the service is mandatory yet there's basically zero chance of ever getting into action so training just feels completely useless.

Ah I understand now, I didn't realise you guys still had National Service, and for what it's worth, I understand completely what you mean. I assume National Service in your country is there to effectively instil discipline, and most of our training is as you described, lots of seemingly pointless kit inspections, lots of seemingly pointless rules etc. They're there to promote discipline, cleanliness, communal living, and a lot of other traits desirable and necessary to the military. The unfortunate thing is, you can join the military at 16 years of age. They can't treat recruits differently to each other, or it would negate the team-work atmosphere they're trying to build. However, they can't treat the 16yr olds like adults, because they'll take advantage. That means everyone is treated like a child.

In many ways, basic training is akin to mild mind control and brainwashing.

i numerous times mentioned i was talking about an example scenario, and yes i might fire if someone attacked me with a knife intending to stab me. my point is this doesn't look like such a black and white slaughter some people make it out to be, and it looks like some of the activists might be to blame for the body count getting so big. still not taking sides because there isn't enough factual information available.

I think we're both effectively shooting at the same target here. I think there's a lot of lies from both sides here, but the IDF seem to be winning in the 'ridiculous propoganda' war for me at the moment.

 

[crookie]

The worst piece of shit spin so far:

Israel: Calling these guys terrorists
Boatpeople: That the Israelis shot into sleeping people

yeah and yet these people are pretty much the only ones who really know what went down, it's quite a puzzle trying to get the facts together..

I think we're both effectively shooting at the same target here. I think there's a lot of lies from both sides here, but the IDF seem to be winning in the 'ridiculous propoganda' war for me at the moment.

international waters, gaza blockade etc...considering what they're starting with they're gonna need lots of propaganda to get anyones backing.


i'm interested why all the hassle happened on mavi marmara though, whether it was just random or whether there was something different with the ship, it's load, people on board or something.

 

[Plissken]

i'm interested why all the hassle happened on mavi marmara though, whether it was just random or whether there was something different with the ship, it's load, people on board or something.

At a guess, that had the most Turks on board and the least "others".

Guardian reports sabotage of the flotilla before it set off.

 

[jetsetter]

http://img130.imageshack.**/img130/6770/duh8282858.png
http://twitter.com/abumuqawama/status/15198644222

lol.

Also Robert Fisk, arguably one of the most experienced middle east reporters in the world, has written a nice column on how western politicians are cowards.

Don't get me started on Robert Fisk. I've read plenty of his articles and many of them are shit. I would say a good 90% of them consist of bitching at the United States, United Kingdom, or some other western power.

 

[nomix]

It looks like the helicopter is fishing with human bait.

:lol:

 

[Heathrow]

Does anyone have:
Nationalities, names and backgrounds of those killed?

Nationalities, names and backgrounds of those wounded?

Nationalities, names and backgrounds of those captured?

Nationalities, names and backgrounds of those already released? (An opposition MP from the Knesset and a former American Ambassador or Diplomat have already been released.)

The BBC has been interviewing some relatives of very innocent looking people involved in this incident. Good hearted na?ve idealists by the look of it, unaware of the realities of Middle Eastern politics and conflict.

Israel had better process and deport the aid workers pretty damn quick otherwise they are going get a bigger shitstorm.

 

[nomix]

I believe writer Henning Mankell (he's the writer of the Wallander-books) has been deported back to Sweden.

 

[DanRoM]

The German members of parliament are back at home as well (left with only the clothes they had on and their passports).

 

[Heathrow]

I believe writer Henning Mankell (he's the writer of the Wallander-books) has been deported back to Sweden.

Yes, I just heard more on the BBC, the Israelis quickly exited about 50 VIPs, but the good news is the they are releasing everyone within ?48 hours?.



<------ Wallander fan

 

[Cobol74]

How can you deport someone you kidnapped from international waters in the first place - you let them go from illegal detention do you not?

Why treat some as ViPs and others differently, they probably suspect that they are/may be terrorists.

Finally what if they find a real terrorist - do they keep him even though he has been kidnapped from the high seas?

Well we will get some of the answers soon. BBC reports say that most Israelis see nothing wrong with what has happened and are flabbergasted by the international reaction.

 

[nomix]

Yes, I just heard more on the BBC, the Israelis quickly exited about 50 VIPs, but the good news is the they are releasing everyone within ?48 hours?.

Yeah, the VIPs always need to be kept safe and cuddly.

<------ Wallander fan

If you like the general idea of Wallander, and the social realism in the Wallander books, and enjoy a good, fun read that puts you back in time.. you should read Sh?wall/Wal??'s books on Martin Beck. They started the whole thing about social realism in crime fiction (they're essentially to crime fiction what Ian Flemming was to spy novels). Great historical commentary, as they were both devoted maoists. It's great fun, just don't take it all as true, and you'll never regret reading them.

How can you deport someone you kidnapped from international waters in the first place - you let them go from illegal detention do you not?

Not to mention charge them with illegal entry to Israel, as they planned to do.

Why treat some as ViPs and others differently, they probably suspect that they are/may be terrorists.

They know they're not terrorists.

Finally what if they find a real terrorist - do they keep him even though he has been kidnapped from the high seas?

If they do, they will either keep him, use "creative methods" to interrogate him, or send him to the country where he came from, if that country can be trusted to punish terrorists.

Well we will get some of the answers soon. BBC reports say that most Israelis see nothing wrong with what has happened and are flabbergasted by the international reaction.

They're not used to this kind of attention, this is extreme, even for Israel. And let's keep in mind that most people who answered to such a poll would be limited to Israeli media.. In much the same way most Europeans are more or less misled from time to time by European media. Add that to a population that has been generally hardline for decades, and it's not suprising.

 

[Viper007Bond]

Via Fark:

Among the "humanitarian" aid found on the Gaza flotilla was a cache of therapeutic bullet-proof vests, medicinal gas masks, and prescription night-vision goggles

According the Jerusalem Post at least, so take it with a grain of salt. Still a funny headline though.

 

[Cobol74]

Bottom line - Israel is supposed to be a modern democracy with a healthy respect for the rule of law - Hamas et al are supposed to care not one jot about the rule of law and are directed by anti-Semitic hate. Trouble is Israel keeps not being what it purports to be 100% and keeps electing rather right wing PMs with lots of smarts who manipulate stuff very well usually.