Mastermind of Munich Olympics massacre dead

[Mitlov]

Abu Daoud, who masterminded the kidnapping and murder at 11 athletes at the Munich Olympics in 1972 has passed away.

Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say, particularly because he never apologized for or recanted from his actions.

I think it's a real shame that Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of the more moderate of the two main Palestinian factions, chose to eulogize him as follows:

He is missed. He was one of the leading figures of Fatah and spent his life in resistance [against the occupation] and sincere work as well as physical sacrifice for his people's just causes

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/03/munich.mastermind.dead/index.html?iref=NS1

I would have hoped that one of the things we could all agree on, regardless of how everyone feels about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is that killing an Olympic athlete because you don't like the politics of the country they're representing is WRONG. I had hoped that, if nothing else, would be common ground.

Oh well.

 

[nomix]

While I detest the actions of "Black september" in Munich, I do think it's hard to understand how it would play to demonise a person like Daoud for a Palestinian politician.

Whatever he did, he did it in a time when the exact same brutality was commonplace in the occupied territories, on a day to day basis, and while the victims were not as high profile as the Olympians, and make no mistake, I do detest that terrorist action, but it's really no moral distinction, civilians are civilians.

We are talking about a conflict where every big or biggish leader during the last 60 years have either been unknown, or unbelivable dicks and bastards, on both sides. Where was the demonising of Ariel Sharon when he died? Did Olmert attack him for the Shatila and Sabra massacre? For his decades of hard line, "hard hand" policies?

No. And I wouldn't expect him to do so either. This is too complicated for easy answers, that's my point.

 

[laxmax613]

Where was the demonising of Ariel Sharon when he died? Did Olmert attack him for the Shatila and Sabra massacre? For his decades of hard line, "hard hand" policies?

These are two uncomparable situations. I think the Sabra and Shatila massacres were terrible events, but to compare Daoud's involvement in the Munich Olympics attack to Sharon during the Lebanon war is simply wrong. someone, who, perhaps on purpose, disregarded the consequences of actions is not the same as someone who actively takes a role in the planning of murder.

 

[Mitlov]

Two parenthetical phrases condemning the massacre of Olympic athletes out of four paragraphs explaining their massacre and the praising eulogy for the mastermind (in 2010, by the most "moderate" Palestinian leader out there).

When Sharon died, did you spend two parenthetical phrases condemning him and four paragraphs condemning random Palestinians? (I'm not saying that I think Sharon is equivalent to Abu Daoud).

These are two uncomparable situations. I think the Sabra and Shatila massacres were terrible events, but to compare Daoud's involvement in the Munich Olympics attack to Sharon during the Lebanon war is simply wrong. someone, who, perhaps on purpose, disregarded the consequences of actions is not the same as someone who actively takes a role in the planning of murder.

No joke. The Sabra and Shatila massacres were carried out by Lebanese troops in Lebanon during the middle of a bloody Lebanese civil war, not by troops acting under Sharon's command. The Munich massacre was organized and ordered by Abu Daoud.

EDIT: I had thought that Sharon had died in 2006; turns out he's just been in a coma since then. When he does pass away, some Israelis will eulogize him, some will condemn him, and some will do something in between. Israel has never been lacking in self-criticism, something I see profoundly lacking in Palestinian politics.

 

[AiR]

What Sharon is still around? Waste of good electricity.

 

[nomix]

These are two uncomparable situations. I think the Sabra and Shatila massacres were terrible events, but to compare Daoud's involvement in the Munich Olympics attack to Sharon during the Lebanon war is simply wrong. someone, who, perhaps on purpose, disregarded the consequences of actions is not the same as someone who actively takes a role in the planning of murder.

Wrong schmong, to be honest, the entire demeanor of the IDF in Lebanon duiring the invation/occupation was so moronicly horrific, that I really think the two are morally equal on their own. Sharon was responsible for the Shatila and Sabra massacres, he could easily have stopped it, but he didn't.

Two parenthetical phrases condemning the massacre of Olympic athletes out of four paragraphs explaining their massacre and the praising eulogy for the mastermind (in 2010, by the most "moderate" Palestinian leader out there).

Let's talk about another Israeli leader, then. Menachim Begin was one of the key leaders of Irgun, Irgun was a terrorist organization who actively attacked Palestinian civilians. And British troops and officials, but we'll ignore that as the British were occupants during the 30s and 40s. Did the leaders of Israel condemn him for his terrorist activities when he died in 1992? They might have, so far, I haven't been able to find anything.

When Sharon died, did you spend two parenthetical phrases condemning him and four paragraphs condemning random Palestinians? (I'm not saying that I think Sharon is equivalent to Abu Daoud).

I might. But as you found out (and I forgot, sorry), he's not dead yet. I rarely condemn Israelis without condemning Palestinians at the same time, as they were usually both fucking up at the same time. I talked about Begin, but he wasn't the only one, by a long standard, Palestinian terrorists were acting like fucking bastards in the same time. But you have to understand Middle East Politics, you never ever break with history unless you want big trouble. It's not about Palestinians particularily LIKING what Daoud did, but they will see it as caving to Israelis. And yes, that's sick and fucking annoying (if it wasn't like this, a lot more could be achieved, which makes it a bummer), but there's little to do.

No joke. The Sabra and Shatila massacres were carried out by Lebanese troops in Lebanon during the middle of a bloody Lebanese civil war, not by troops acting under Sharon's command. The Munich massacre was organized and ordered by Abu Daoud.

The Sabra and Shatila massacres were carried out by a Christian militia force with IDF/Mossad handlers, witnesses in the aftermath said their Israeli handlers told them to "go into the camps and "get" the PLO". To say it was the result of random shit in a civil war is tempting, but it's not correct. Sharon carries grave responsibility for his actions in Lebanon, that includes this massacre. And that's before we start talking about what the SLA and colonel Haddad's actions in Southern Lebanon during the 80s. And the SLA were financed and supplied actively and adviced actively by, hold your breath, the IDF.

EDIT: I had thought that Sharon had died in 2006; turns out he's just been in a coma since then. When he does pass away, some Israelis will eulogize him, some will condemn him, and some will do something in between. Israel has never been lacking in self-criticism, something I see profoundly lacking in Palestinian politics.

Will Netanyahu condemn him for his crimes in Lebanon? I really don't think so. It will make him look like a pussy to the extreme right wing of Israeli politics and voters. And while the left side doesn't need them that much, Netanyahu does.

 

[Mitlov]

Nomix,

Two points.

First, this thread isn't about Sharon. It isn't about Begin. It's about Abu Daoud and the Palestinian leadership who still, to this day, praise his murder of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics as "resistance and sincere work as well as physical sacrifice for his people's just causes." For all the wars of the 20th century--it's rare that there isn't a war going on somewhere when the Olympic Games are held--I think that's the ONLY time that Olympic athletes have been murdered at the Games as terrorism as part of such a war. If you started a thread about Menachem Begin, and I said "never mind him, here's a page on Abu Daoud and two pages on Hamas suicide bombings and here's a description of the Sbarro bombing," etc etc etc, I think you'd fairly accuse me of derailing and redirecting the thread away from its topic.

Second, I've noticed that you seem to hold Palestinian leadership to a standard of "doing only what they can do without upsetting their constituents," whereas you hold Israeli leadership to "unilaterally doing EVERYTHING that might eventually need to be achieved before a long-lasting peace is established." You expect Israel to conduct an immediate, unilateral withdrawal of every settlement because that probably would be one of the pieces of a two-state solution, but you don't even except Palestinian leadership to condemn (or even stop actively praising) a brazen mass-murder of athletes at the Olympic Games. I think we can all agree that renouncing terrorism against civilians is going to be part of any successful two-state solution; why don't you demand that Palestinian leadership renounce such terrorism right here and now?

 

[nomix]

Mitlov,

If you were to take up Daoud in a thread about Sharon's crimes, I'd welcome it. I'm sick and tired of people JUST condemening Arafat or JUST condemning Sharon. It's futile and stupid, and gets us nowhere. Well, of course, there's an obvious question of wether or not condemnation is in itself constructive in any way, but people want it, so why not?

Sharon, Begin, Ben Gurion and Meir. Arafat, Abu Al Houl, Daoud and Salameh. They ALL behaved like brutal, moronic bullies, and the region is hurting because of it. I don't give a rats ass if you tell me that Arafat was a SOB. Cause he was. But I do mind if you're uneasy about saying the same about most Israeli leaders in the last six decades. Because most of them have been ruthless bastards, at least by humanitarian standards.

As for wether or not I think Israel should do a lot, and the Palestinians shouldn't do anything, that's not a correct represenation of my views.

Do I think Israel should start dismantling the settlements tomorrow? Of course. Firstly, it will be good for Israel. Secondly, right is right. The occupation is illegal. The settlements are also illegal. I don't give a rats ass why they do it, but they should dismantle them tomorrow, no matter what they get for it. It's not like it's Israel giving something that belongs to Israel to the Palestinians. It's the Israelis leaving something that doesn't belong to them.

Do I think all Palestinians factions should stop any and all attacks on Israeli civilians, settlers or not, tomorrow? Yes, of course. Firstly, it would be good for them, every killed civilian in Israel is destructive to the Palestinian cause, much in the same way as every single settlement is destructive for Israel's national security. Secondly, attacking civilians is wrong. It's morally degraded and a disgrace. I don't care why do stop it. Right is right, and targeting civilians is not right, it's wrong. It's not like stopping the attacks would be stopping something reasonable, it would be stopping something that is, can you guess? WRONG.

Make me Israeli PM, and I'll work every hour of every day to get rid of the settlements until they are just that, gone. Make me leader of the Hamas, and I'll jail anyone who as much as think about sending a rocket towards Sderot.

I do demand it. Why don't you demand the dismantlement of the illegal, imoral and contraproductive Israeli settlements RIGHT NOW?

 

[Mitlov]

I've probably spent as much energy saying that the settlements are counterproductive and should be removed as you've spent condemning the mass-murder of Olympic athletes and the praise thereof by modern Palestinian leadership. Which is to say some, but not much.

I've got no problem saying that all the people you listed are assholes. No problem at all. But not all assholes are equally bad. Bernard Madoff and Osama Bin Laden are both assholes, but they don't belong in the same sentence. And I've got a big problem once you start implying moral equivalency between (1) mass-murdering Olympic athletes and/or applauding their murder, and (2) building houses on the wrong side of some line on some map.

 

[nomix]

I've probably spent as much energy saying that the settlements are counterproductive and should be removed as you've spent condemning the mass-murder of Olympic athletes and the praise thereof by modern Palestinian leadership. Which is to say some, but not much.

And I've got no problem with that, we all have our priorities, as long as we keep in mind that there no "good" side, that's as much as I'm willing to hope for. And I'll settle for it.

I've got no problem saying that all the people you listed are assholes. No problem at all. But not all assholes are equally bad. Bernard Madoff and Osama Bin Laden are both assholes, but they don't belong in the same sentence. And I've got a big problem once you start implying moral equivalency between (1) mass-murdering Olympic athletes and/or applauding their murder, and (2) building houses on the wrong side of some line on some map.

Daoud was bad. He was, however, not an Osama. I'm not implying moral equivalency. Not really. I've been pinned down on moral equivalency in this debate from the left and from the right. There's a reason for it. I won't say that the settlements are better than terrorism. And I won't say it's worse. Trying to judge what's best and worst is, in this context, again, futile.

And I'm not just talking about settlements. Pretty much every single Israeli PM since Ben Gurion has actively supported hard hand tactics, collective punishment, bulldozing houses, blockades of different sorts, torture of both Palestinian militants, but also of Palestinian political activists. Hard hand tactics have led to thousands of deaths, reckless use of inaccurate bombing in populated areas, shelling of refugee camps, allowing the growth and expansion of militias like the SLA with carte blanche to kill, mame, torture and harass anyone as they please. Armind, funding and supporting the same militias. Funding the Hamas to make shit for the PLO, treating Palestinian Israelis as second citizens (and while Israel is still the freest country for an arab, look at the differences between jewish Israelis and arab Israelis, the difference is there, and it's fucking wast), just to mention a few. Onto that comes decades of occupation, settlements and shitloads of trouble.

So, do I think the Palestinians aren't to blame? No fucking way. Do I think terrorism can be justified? No. Can it be explained? Yeah, but it's still not acceptable.

But no matter what, I think it is completely irrelevant who has done the most wrong. The history is too complex, too difficult, too disputed and too unsure. These two people have been through so much fucking shit over the years that it's damn near laughable to attempt to in ANY way decide who's worse.

And you haven't demanded that Israel remove their settlements today. Why not?

 

[tigger]

But no matter what, I think it is completely irrelevant who has done the most wrong. The history is too complex, too difficult, too disputed and too unsure. These two people have been through so much fucking shit over the years that it's damn near laughable to attempt to in ANY way decide who's worse.

Agreed. Daoud's death just means that one more of the assholes who have driven this conflict for decades is gone. I'm not surprised in the least that Abbas said what he did. Abbas is a prick too and I'll be just as happy when he's dead. Especially if that means someone more reasonable runs the Palestinian Authority.