PhD or not to PhD, that is the question

otispunkmeyer

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So im still looking for credible ways out of my current situation at my company.

ive been on site out in south africa for the past nearly 2 months, which has been much fun despite spending the majority of my time stuck in a sweaty cabin doing check sheets in excel or being a general secretary. what time i have been on the turbine floor has been either to watch or maybe unpack a box or two. i cant say ive learned too much about how powerstation turbines are built up because ive missed most of the major stuff. disappointing really.

never mind, an avenue has opened up. Whilst the only job i can seem to get my hooks in to with a local consultancy is still on the cards (they just landed a ?1m deal with the Chinese to built a special test rig). They are undecided on whether they need more engineers and i have begun to think PhD. I will keep reminding them that im here and willing to drop everything to come work for them.

I fired off a few mails to lecturers who i know, and who know me, whom i found thoroughly interesting and enjoyable to see if they had any interesting PhD's going. in an amazing coincidence, my favorite IC engines lecturer got back saying he was looking for a good candidate to do one of his PhD's in devising a plasma cleaning device for Diesel Particulate Filter Regeneration.

its gonna involve lots of testing on engines, X-Rays, Laser measurements a healthy dose of physics and a lot of electronics, its a very practical PhD, not a lot of time spent developing theory. physics and electronics are my 2 best strengths! its being done in conjunction with caterpillar and a local company called 3D X-Ray. its sounds very promising and its enticing me to say yes every day.

ill still need to go through interviews though, but as the guys know me already and know what im like, i figure i might have a head start. and they always say they want more "home" students to do the PhD's.

so its 3 years, starts on ?15k tax free rising to 17k tax free by the end of the final year. money wise this appears to be a substantial cut in my income, but a)being tax exempt and b) uni being 3 minutes bike ride away means once the dust is settled with bills and not having to own my car (i can share the wifes,and it is costing me ?250/mo to get to work) ill actually be better off than staying at Alstom for another 3 years. And it may well open up great job prospects with the 2 companies involved.

i need to man up and make a decision, i know myself that i become very indecisive with big decisions. do PhD's do anything for your future career? or will i be playing catch up because i decided to do something interesting for 3 years? should i hold out for a job that might materialise at this consultancy? i do not know!!!! gah!
 
A PhD is imminent for me, as well (within the next few years, looking like). I think you need to ask yourself HOW necessary the advanced degree would be for your future career goals. How sure are you about what you want to do with your life (I didn't REALLY know at 24...).

I don't know too much about your industry and the precise value it puts on the possession of a doctorate, but I do know you ought to do one for the right reasons and because you have a passion for a specific area of study. In my case, I have a long-time, "original" area of inquiry that I've already explored in a second undergrad and then my Master's, and I do need one (as I'm being told by TV/media universities; I have already taught production at the uni level, but am looking to become/retire a professor after some more time in the trenches).

But, don't for a second do one because of the shite that is today's job industry. Just got to ride that out. I have friends with two and three degrees whose job search isn't being made any easier. Do one because you're invested in a specific area of study, and want to contribute knowledge to the field. Do one because you love research. If you're seriously considering teaching in the future, as I am, definitely do one.
 
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This sounds like a no-lose situation for Otis, unless for some reason you have to quit your current job before knowing for sure you have gotten into the PhD.
 
A friend of mine who studied engineering (and finished with the equvalent of a Master) used to tell me that in Engineering a Doctor(title) would only be usefull if you want to a) study/teach at university yourself or b) want to start your own buisness.

Don?t really know if that?s true or not ... or how this alpies to your specific field.
 
A friend of mine who studied engineering (and finished with the equvalent of a Master) used to tell me that in Engineering a Doctor(title) would only be usefull if you want to a) study/teach at university yourself or b) want to start your own buisness.

Don?t really know if that?s true or not ... or how this alpies to your specific field.

THIS. If I wanted to work in production alone for the rest of my life, getting a PhD would be silly. Make sure you talk to a bunch of people in the field, and ask their advice on how much more of an attractive candidate someone with a PhD would be. And, keep in mind, the last thing you want to do is take three years away from work, only to end up branding yourself as overqualified. That's on par with being underqualified in certain industries, IMHO.
 
A PhD is imminent for me, as well (within the next few years, looking like). I think you need to ask yourself HOW necessary the advanced degree would be for your future career goals. How sure are you about what you want to do with your life (I didn't REALLY know at 24...).

I don't know too much about your industry and the precise value it puts on the possession of a doctorate, but I do know you ought to do one for the right reasons and because you have a passion for a specific area of study. In my case, I have a long-time, "original" area of inquiry that I've already explored in a second undergrad and then my Master's, and I do need one (as I'm being told by TV/media universities; I have already taught production at the uni level, but am looking to become/retire a professor after some more time in the trenches).

But, don't for a second do one because of the shite that is today's job industry. Just got to ride that out. I have friends with two and three degrees whose job search isn't being made any easier. Do one because you're invested in a specific area of study, and want to contribute knowledge to the field. Do one because you love research. If you're seriously considering teaching in the future, as I am, definitely do one.

fair points, i honestly dont mind doing anything so long as its interesting and engaging. ill need a few more specifics on this project but its shaping up nicely it seems. i do engineering and a doctorate is looked upon highly, but i dunno, i wouldnt say not having one greatly disadvantages you in some way but in the right places doors will open....most of the guys at where i work currently, who have PhD's, they are all managers of some sort, fulfilling jobs with good pay. until i learn abit more, i cant really decide, but at the moment its that or a hopeful job in a consultancy and at the moment i dont favour one over the other. hopefully ill get my answers soon.
 
True, if you want to do a PhD to progress your career, then it's only really applicable to academia. It can help if you want to become a Technical Authority or similar in a particular field, but the problem with PhD's are that they end up being too specialised in one particular area. When potential employers look at your CV, they want to see relevant industrial experience, and don't really consider a PhD as that.

What it does show them, however, is that you are capable of managing your own project in a way, and also that you have your head screwed on. Finishing a PhD and joining the workforce might mean you start at a slightly higher position than a regular degree (i.e not a graduate), but that's not a guarantee. It depends on the topic, and it helps if you do parttime work at the same time.

I did a PhD and I really don't use it in my day to day work. I'm glad I did it because it's something that people can't take away from me, but I may have done it for the wrong reasons (couldn't be bothered going into fulltime work). I also worked parttime at the same time, which supplemented the scholarship, and meant that I gained additional experience which meant I was more easily employed later on.

You really should think about what industry you do want to end up in and if you do want to stay as an engineer, think about what career path you'd like to take. It's early days yet, so things do change, but if you want to move into management later, then maybe the PhD will not get you there.
 
I'm currently finishing up my PhD project... and I can tell you its nothing like a job. No 2 days are the same and you are guaranteed not to be stuck in a routine. But the hours you need to put in vary wildly (especially during your first year).. but it is amazingly rewarding and you will never look at the world in the same way ever again.
BUT, it is impossible to enjoy the whole PhD experience if it is just a calendar filler. If your long term interests are in research or development, then PhD is probably worth it (maybe even necessary). If not, 3-4 yrs of work experience elsewhere might serve you better than a PhD.
 
very fair points being made here, im talking to the careers advisor tomorrow over the phone at the university, see what she thinks of it. all i know is, i cant stay where i am for much longer. its actually ruining me, im sat doing meaningless, menial exercises, im not using anything ive learnt in the past 5 years and im almost terrified of the term "use it or lose it" (ie if you dont keep up with the things you learn, and do some of them everyday, it will all be for nought because you will forget). i dont want that to happen.

the HR team there dont seem to care, or are in fact too incompetent to care, and the management are always way to busy having meetings about having meetings to really sit down with you and come up with proper fulfilling work. My mentor there actually hasn't spoke to me since i got there, he is the hardest man to find, i cant go in his office because its only for people under NDA from the government and my emails go unanswered. so ive had enough, fuck em... it cost me too much of my mediocre grad salary to come and be miserable every week. my gf hates it because im actually now not the person i was when we first met.

i know some people will just say ride it out, but ill be honest an say why should i have to? i see no reason to sit and continue being miserable just waitin for something to change. it will never happen.


got a skype call on thursday with the PhD guys, guess i need to really ask them some difficult questions about what the PhD can do for me as opposed to what i will be doing for them. As i say this project is less about the theory, more about testing, design and production. its probably as close to industry experience as you can get without working or doing an Eng Doc. But still, the 3 years of work experience might be more useful.

i guess the key information that i keep forgetting about is the plan to move from the UK, to Australia before im 30. this is gonna be the killer i think.... ill be on the expat forums later today asking people if a PhD is going to be attractive to Oz employers, or whether the experience in industry counts for more. Knowing the Aussie's no-nonse, i think i know the answer.
 
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In Australia, there's no black/white answer. I could say that it isn't worthwhile, and most companies don't care if you have one or not, but at the same time, engineering managers in the company I work for sometimes have them. It's not going to help having a PhD about plasma cleaning devices in the oil and gas industry - it's just too specialised. Having said that, I don't know what career path you want for yourself down here, so you might be thinking of something completely different. If you want to work for a consultancy, then yes, it can move you up, but certainly not that far.

At the same time, be careful with workshop/physical test based PhDs. There is a tendency to waste a lot of time getting things built, and pretty soon two years have gone by with not much progress. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but there is a time limit to completing a PhD here (4 years with scholarship, 5 years without).
 
^ yeah it sounds specialised but there is a lot of general electronics and electronic control work going into it. now that is useful, its just what its applied to it specialised. we get three years , scholarship for all 3 years. after that its off your own back or if the work carried on for a good reason, maybe those involved grant the scholarship an extension
 
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its gonna involve lots of testing on engines, X-Rays, Laser measurements a healthy dose of physics and a lot of electronics, its a very practical PhD, not a lot of time spent developing theory. physics and electronics are my 2 best strengths! its being done in conjunction with caterpillar and a local company called 3D X-Ray. its sounds very promising and its enticing me to say yes every day.

They all say that until you actually start researching, then you realize a million things don't work/past data is crap/uni doesn't have enough funding to do the job properly. I'm doing a research project at the moment at uni and its easily the worst thing in the world. Its driven me to a suicidal rage quiet a few times already.

Its my opinion that you don't need a PhD in engineering unless you're interested in research as a permanent career. Most people in eng I've spoken to say a PhD in eng is a waste of money, and from my work experience I'd agree. If your company thinks a PhD is necessary for your work they're often willing to pay you to go do one anyway.

Everyone just has to ride out this tough economy. You should see what aerospace prospects are like in this country, and after wasting 4 years of my life in uni I've decided engineering isn't my best career choice anyway.
 
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^well yeah this is what im afraid of. i spent all of college doing maths, physics, electronics.... enjoyed it. spent 5 more years after that doing a masters in mechanical engineering, including industry placements.... enjoyed it. (tho i hated the work experience)

the funding is sorted, its all been paid for upfront by the parties involved, so funding shouldnt be a problem and the university dept has a very good track record, they have lots of kit. but thats only a few slices of the pie.

i enjoyed uni, but i havent enjoyed the working world of engineering...maybe im not supposed to, but to be honest i dont see why i cant have a job i enjoy. i hate endlessly toiling through spread sheets, so banking/finance is out. i hate wishy washy BS, so thats a lot of businessy type things out... and im finding engineering in the real world to be cripplingly dull. getting a bit worried that there's nothing im actually gonna enjoy! haha

though actually working on site/field work is quite fun, even if the jobs are duff....the people tend to be right good characters instead of the gormless drones working in the office who's weekend highlights consist of having a long chat with their next door neighbor and agonizing profusly over whether or not to buy a battered 2nd hand ford focus.

but, what the hell do you do if your an engineer who no longer wants to be bothered with engineering? what jobs can you get?
 
^well yeah this is what im afraid of. i spent all of college doing maths, physics, electronics.... enjoyed it. spent 5 more years after that doing a masters in mechanical engineering, including industry placements.... enjoyed it. (tho i hated the work experience)

the funding is sorted, its all been paid for upfront by the parties involved, so funding shouldnt be a problem and the university dept has a very good track record, they have lots of kit. but thats only a few slices of the pie.

i enjoyed uni, but i havent enjoyed the working world of engineering...maybe im not supposed to, but to be honest i dont see why i cant have a job i enjoy. i hate endlessly toiling through spread sheets, so banking/finance is out. i hate wishy washy BS, so thats a lot of businessy type things out... and im finding engineering in the real world to be cripplingly dull. getting a bit worried that there's nothing im actually gonna enjoy! haha

though actually working on site/field work is quite fun, even if the jobs are duff....the people tend to be right good characters instead of the gormless drones working in the office who's weekend highlights consist of having a long chat with their next door neighbor and agonizing profusly over whether or not to buy a battered 2nd hand ford focus.

but, what the hell do you do if your an engineer who no longer wants to be bothered with engineering? what jobs can you get?

Really? I can't stand most people in engineering. Most people in eng department at uni are fucken shy, anti-social types too scared to talk to others and have no sense of humor and life. Walking into the faculty office for me is like walking into a morgue.

I hate uni so much its not funny. All the subjects are run like a joke and yet I'm racking up a huge debt for this. Engineering just hasn't worked out for me at all if I'm honest, but I still have a bit of faith that once I work full-time things might pick up.

Yes, I'm majorly depressed at the moment.
 
Since it gives you a diluted taste of college life that's maybe a lot better than your job. But still you need a PhD only if you want to teach or something like that. Or if you have nothing to show of your life (that usually happens after midlife crisis)
 
What Hajj said. Seriuosly, most engineering people end up going into finance because the engineering mindset is excellent for investment analysis, etc.

I plan on making my way into the financial world. Its an interest I've nurtured on the side for a while now, and I think I'd like to take it up as a career. Maybe its just my personality and attributes, but I'm not the kind of person that can hold down a normal 9-5 job. For example, whilst many people can often continually chisel away at something I'm someone who has moment of insanely high productivity then slumps back down afterwards. I'm just not good at "conventional" jobs, so to speak.
 
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Really? I can't stand most people in engineering. Most people in eng department at uni are fucken shy, anti-social types too scared to talk to others and have no sense of humor and life. Walking into the faculty office for me is like walking into a morgue.

I hate uni so much its not funny. All the subjects are run like a joke and yet I'm racking up a huge debt for this. Engineering just hasn't worked out for me at all if I'm honest, but I still have a bit of faith that once I work full-time things might pick up.

Yes, I'm majorly depressed at the moment.

fuck lol, at uni all the engineers were friggin mental.... we had such a laugh. for a bunch of smart people, we're the dumbest people i know... i guess its all down to the people, but the guys in my year were all cool, everyone was friends, we had banter, jokes, epic nights out etc etc... had to of been the least boring people on campus, no one believed we were engineers the way we went on.

but at work, its completely as you describe your department.... its like walking into a hospital morgue. theres no camaraderie, no team spirit, no playful banter...just silence. happily this is directly at odds with similar engineering companies located in the north east. yes the industrial north east of the UK might be full of people called bill, with the consumption... but damn they know how to have a good time anytime. everyone knows everyone, all are up for a laugh... humour is probably the only thing that brings people through the day i suspect.

sounds like my uni and yours couldnt be more different. i had a blast doing engineering, all the lecturers are top of their fields, they know everything back to front, inside out, always willing to help and always teaching you the very latest things. you had to keep up, they wouldnt dumb it down, required a lot of leg work to get to an understanding sometimes, but it makes you all the better for it. the lecturers are also a proper bunch of characters...

just have to give the working world a chance, see if its any different from what you got now... if its not, dont stay. move on. ive given it one chance at alstom and its crap. ill be giving it another chance because i dont want to feel like the degree was a bit of a waste. b
 
What Hajj said. Seriuosly, most engineering people end up going into finance because the engineering mindset is excellent for investment analysis, etc.

I plan on making my way into the financial world. Its an interest I've nurtured on the side for a while now, and I think I'd like to take it up as a career. Maybe its just my personality and attributes, but I'm not the kind of person that can hold down a normal 9-5 job. For example, whilst many people can often continually chisel away at something I'm someone who has moment of insanely high productivity then slumps back down afterwards. I'm just not good at "conventional" jobs, so to speak.

id have to make sure i wasnt going to be chained to MS excel before i took that decision. i hate doing it at Alstom, there is no way im gonna like doing it at a bank, despite being paid 2-3 times as much
 
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