What happens when you refuse to pose for TSA or be sexually molested to fly.

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I called the :tease: smiley idiotic, and the correction stupid, not you.
Gee you make mistakes too, oh my god, you must be human. :tease:
 
There is a difference between posting facts, and claiming that we are too busy raping you to keep the flights secure. Keeping this simple: I've been through all the screening in multiple airports. They don't grope you. They don't rape you. They don't molest you. The full-body scans don't show your genitals. And the machines work.

TSOs are trained the same way, at every class. Nearly all of them follow the training, and perform their job correctly. Those few complaints you see about improper screening are due to human error-- where the operator/TSO screws up. The agency as a whole didn't fuck up-- that PERSON did.

There are over 28,000 flights per day in the United States. Lets say with 75% capacity on all those flights, we have 1.5 million people flying per DAY. Now how many problems do you see per day about TSOs? Taking a totally random number here, but say there were 1500 complaints that day about how people feel they were treated while going through a security checkpoint, and complained to the media. While that number sounds amazingly large, that represents a 0.01% problem rate with screenings. The actual rate of problems is much less than that, so don't take that as an official number.

So what is my point? You are taking the very FEW problems that occur and blowing them out of proportion.

Also, I'm going to call bullshit on this one:

WRONG.
http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/structure/editorial_0644.shtm
http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/structure/
Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties.
I will even quote it, JUST FOR YOU;

http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/structure/editorial_0373.shtm
That is the primary agency under DHS, TSA has their own;
http://www.tsa.gov/research/civilrights/index.shtm

I originally wrote the above this morning, and after reading your additional postings today, my respect for you is gone. Calling us rapists and molesters is absolutely unacceptable. I will not reply to your deluded posts any further, and have placed you on my permanent ignore list on the forums.

It's unfortunate that you put me on ignore, because I would love to have a conversation with you of all people.

The office of Civil Rights looks like it oversees much more than just TSA, and I'm still concerned over the allegations from members of the public of their complaints being ignored. So maybe TSA needs an agency that is specific to TSA that takes a more active approach to policing TSA.
If you've been watching this thread, why didn't you bring this up earlier? I would hope that by now you would realize that when I'm presented with conflicting factual information (such as the backscatter radiation levels), I will concede the point.

The big questions that remain are civil rights (specifically the rights of Americans to travel freely within the US and the 4th Amendment), and the damaging psychological effects of current TSA policy on abuse victims.

Note, that I didn't call you a molester or a rapist, I said that to an abuse victim or a child what TSA does can cause severe psychological problems for people who have been victims. The body-search, which is far more invasive than a standard law-enforcement pat-down, does feel like molestation and there are more than a few reports of passengers being groped and there are quotes and articles in this thread that specify that TSA agents run their hands up the inner leg until they feel genitals. I don't know how you define groping, but that qualifies for me and for most other people.

I understand your anger. There are many people who are angry at TSA over how they are treated and the lack of responsiveness regarding complaints. There are many who have serious concerns, not with TSA's adherence to their admittedly amorphous policy, but with the overall implementation and disregard for any semblance of privacy or security of one's possessions (not that big a deal in terms of scanning, but it becomes problematic with the many allegations of theft from checked bags and personal items at checkpoints, including jewelry) and ones person (which is a big deal).

I get that you have loyalty to your employer, but you need to understand that many people are pissed off at TSA and your numbers about the problems are out of date because the policies that are causing the problems only went into effect in October.

I'm sorry that you feel the need to take out your frustrations regarding this issue on me, but I am not the problem and I am certainly not the only person who has these concerns. When major Child Advocacy groups are opposed to your agency's policies it might be time to reexamine whether or not they are still acting in the best interest of this nation.
 
It's unfortunate that you put me on ignore, because I would love to have a conversation with you of all people.

The office of Civil Rights looks like it oversees much more than just TSA,
so?

and I'm still concerned over the allegations from members of the public of their complaints being ignored. So maybe TSA needs an agency that is specific to TSA that takes a more active approach to policing TSA.

so taking the complaints and then doing...

Note, that I didn't call you a molester or a rapist,

"What happens when you refuse to pose for TSA or be sexually molested to fly"

https://pic.armedcats.net/b/bl/blind_io/2010/11/15/zB7xt.png
Can I get this on a shirt? Please?

Among the other things you've called them like unqualified, untrained idiots and "polyester-clad monkeys". Doesn't sound much like you'd want to entertain a talk with a TSA agent in the least. If you really do, then here's a tip: acting like a dick by calling people names and insulting them isn't going to land you a conversation. Unless you're Bill O Reilly

613823_85f73f2e04_o.jpg





I don't know how you define groping, but that qualifies for me and for most other people.

Yeah, when you ignore the context and intent behind the action you can also say your doctor gropes/rapes/sexually assaults/molests you as well if you didn't want to see him that day.

I understand your anger. There are many people who are angry at TSA over how they are treated and the lack of responsiveness regarding complaints.

Such is the nature of complaints and people doing the complaining.

I'm sorry that you feel the need to take out your frustrations regarding this issue on me, but I am not the problem and I am certainly not the only person who has these concerns. When major Child Advocacy groups are opposed to your agency's policies it might be time to reexamine whether or not they are still acting in the best interest of this nation.

Child Advocacy groups are opposed to alot of things from GTA IV to vaccinations. Citing their objections as a whole doesn't really help your case
 
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First off: The Office of Civil rights is over all of Homeland security, for an agency the size of TSA it seems like it would be prudent to have a dedicated agency to handle passenger complaints and allegations of malfeasance in a more timely manner.

I'm not talking about parents up in arms over a video game or a movie, I'm talking about a group of clinicians who work with victims of child abuse and child rape. To equate the two is not only ignorant, it's malicious.

As for the context and comparing TSA to a doctor's visit: I go to my doctor willingly. I don't have to submit to a physical exam in order to drive my car or cross state lines. Also, my doctor is a doctor, he went to medical school and is a highly trained professional who is bound by the laws of confidentiality. I get to pick my own doctor (or pick the insurance that lets me go to the doctor I want). None of this applies to TSA. When TSA get the same amount of training as other xray technicians and medical professionals then we can talk about comparing them to a doctor.

It is not the nature of people with legitimate complaints to be upset over being ignored, unless the agency is ignoring them. That is one of the major problems is that unless someone posts a viral video online TSA doesn't seem to give a damn.

Let me try to explain this a different way with a bit of psychoeducation. The postmodernist schools of thought highlight the absence of an absolute truth. The client's perception of reality is reality for that person. Let's go with the best case scenario and assume altruism on the part of all TSA agents. In this case the TSA agent likely perceives the situation as him being a patriot on the front lines performing a dangerous and challenging task to keep people safe from the specter of international terrorism; his actions are for the good of society and the good of the individual.

I see the TSA agent as a symbol of by ever-eroding civil rights, I resent his presence and what he represents and I don't want him rummaging through my bag, touching me or viewing scans of my body or any other persons. To me he is the knee-jerk reaction to an amorphous and poorly defined threat and stands before me as a reminder that the attacks on 9/11 succeeded in causing long-term disruptions to our way of life.

To a sexual abuse or rape survivor, the TSA agent represents absolute authority. S/he has total control of the situation, much like the abuser did. The agent dictates what does and does not happen in the situation and has control over your body. The TSA agent represents helplessness and powerlessness. The act of physically screening the survivor is a reenactment of the abuse, not only because of where the TSA agent can touch the survivor, but the fact that the survivor is utterly powerless to stop them. The survivor likely feels a great deal of shame or anger as a result.

So in the eyes of the survivor, what TSA does is molestation or sexual assault, despite the TSA agent's differing perception. It doesn't matter what TSA thinks or the agent's perception because the survivor will suffer the effects of revictimization regardless of the agent's internal processes. This is one of the fundamental reasons I am against TSA's current standards and practices.

Quiky could offer some useful information here, such as how passenger complaints are handled internally and whether or not a note from an MFT or other mental health provider would be honored as a way to get out of physical screening, as has been claimed in this thread.

I stand by my claim that what TSA is doing is unconstitutional and ineffective. A dedicated jihadist will get through existing security because no part of existing security actually detects bombs and TSA agents, to the best of my knowledge, are not trained to spot the subtle behaviors of a person planning an attack. Instead, they waste their time and ours by screening mentally disabled children and forcing the elderly or disabled to stand without their medical aids in a body scanner (see this thread for references). These techniques are ineffective.

TSA claims that they have a perfect record for deterring attacks simply because no domestic flight has been hijacked or attacked. We went years without an attack before 9/11, that doesn't meant that security was impermeable. TSA continues to miss their own test items and there is anecdotal evidence of test procedures being altered so that the test bag is known to the screener in advance. Even if these stories are false, TSA has been shown to miss up to 90% of test material. I know a number of people who have accidentally carried blades ranging from small pocket knives to large cooking knives onto a plane without being caught. Even Adam Savage pointed out that TSA missed two foot-long razor blades when he flew.

All this is elementary. My contention is that infringing on our civil rights is too high a price to pay for this security theater and the illusion of safety. People in this thread have tried to find ways around the civil rights argument ranging from falsely claiming that airports are private property so the constitution does not apply to parroting the TSA agent who said on video "you gave up a lot of your rights when you bought your ticket." That's interesting, because I don't believe that by buying an airline ticket I forfeit my inalienable rights.

I reject the idea that I much decide if I want to exercise my right to travel within my own nation or preserve my 4th Amendment right to have control over my own body. The "frisk" that TSA performs is incredibly invasive and far beyond what any law enforcement agency is allowed without arresting a person, and thus having to demonstrate probable cause.

I'm sorry if this offends TSA employees like Quiky, but TSA's policies and practices are not only offensive, I believe them to be illegal and unconstitutional. No where in the constitution does it say you have the right to not be offended, but since we are all part of the same community here I do apologize if I have offended anyone. The fact is that I feel very strongly about this issue and I am willing to make a fight of it. It angers me that so many people in this country don't seem to care that they are having their rights taken away and are not willing to fight to preserve them.
 
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Calling a group of people idiotic monkeys isn't making a fight of anything, its called being a douche.
 
Calling a group of people idiotic monkeys isn't making a fight of anything, its called being a douche.

You're right. I was angry and I apologize.
 
mpicco
Did you really just compare a doctor who goes under almost 10 years of training with a TSA agent?!

Not really, I was pointing out the importance of context and intention behind actions so everyone's not throwing the words "rape" and "molester" around. Plenty of doctors have been accused of sexually assaulting patients and its not an especially rare event, so how would you distinguish it if it was essentially the same kind of touching as one who was giving a particular exam (It'd be much more difficult if you only used some of the broader definitions of "sexual assault")? Its the intent and context behind the actions that are important so comparing a TSA agent to a rapist or even a train groper is just as offensive because he's just doing his job, not doing it for any of the reasons molesters and gropers do. Its a stupid and offensive argument.
 
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Not really, I was pointing out the importance of context and intention behind actions so everyone's not throwing the words "rape" and "molest" around. Plenty of doctors have been accused of sexually abusing patients and its not an especially rare event, so how would you distinguish it if it was essentially the same kind of touching as one who was giving a particular exam? Its the intent behind the actions that are important so comparing a TSA agent to a rapist or even a train groper is just as offensive because he's just doing his job, not doing it for any of the reasons molesters and gropers do. Its a stupid and offensive argument.

As I stated above, the intent doesn't matter to the survivor of rape or assault.

Also, you aren't prohibited from leaving a doctor's office.
 
As I stated above, the intent doesn't matter to the survivor of rape or assault.

Also, you aren't prohibited from leaving a doctor's office.

If you're a child you may be. And yes, you can leave the airport and afaik they're required to tell you that you're going to be subject to a body search so its not like a huge surprise. Also, I don't think these people need you to speak for them. There are alot of things some of these victims can no longer do and thats one of the reasons its tragic, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to overhaul the system on this relatively small minority's behalf. and please don't quote your statistics because they use broad definitions, aren't in perspective, and don't take into account those who would be fine being subject to the pat downs, though uncomfortable, so they can get on a flight and continue with their lives.
 
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So you are back to the "don't fly" argument.

A child at a doctor's office is under the care of the parent who makes decisions regarding the child's health. At a TSA checkpoint the TSA agents decide what to do to that child regardless of the parents' wishes.

The scenarios of a doctor's office and a TSA checkpoint are in no way analogous.
 
So you are back to the "don't fly" argument.

A child at a doctor's office is under the care of the parent who makes decisions regarding the child's health.

Doesn't stop the doctor from touching the child inappropriately. Especially if the parent is in the waiting room.

At a TSA checkpoint the TSA agents decide what to do to that child regardless of the parents' wishes.

The scenarios of a doctor's office and a TSA checkpoint are in no way analogous.

Yes they are. And the point about the analogy is to stop you calling these people child abusers. At least the parents can see the TSA agents and take the child away whereas the doctor can do whatever whilst the parents are in the waiting room and quell their suspicions by saying "I'm a doctor he/she is just overreacting". And stop telling people to stop with the don't fly argument just because you don't like it. Its a legitimate argument and choice of the patron.
 
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Doesn't stop the doctor from touching the child inappropriately. Especially if the parent is in the waiting room.

Yes they are. At least the parents can see the TSA agents and take the child away whereas the doctor can do whatever whilst the parents are in the waiting room and quell their suspicions by saying "I'm a doctor he/she is just overreacting". And stop telling people to stop with the don't fly argument just because you don't like it.

In what world is the child taken to a private doctor's office without the parent present? Not only is this incredibly unprofessional since the parent is the decision-maker and guardian, it's unethical.

I've worked in healthcare and mental health most my adult life and I have never seen this happen, either as a patient or as a provider. The only exception is adolescents with behavior problems who are sent to a residential treatment program, but the staff there do not perform medical procedures and are present as the child's representative for any hospitalization or doctor's visit - most of the time with the parent on speaker phone.

EDIT: For clarification, I'm talking about young children (similar to the ones we've seen in the videos posted here), not adolescents who do have a right to confidential care under the AMA ethics code, but are encouraged to involve their parents.
 
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In what world is the child taken to a private doctor's office without the parent present? Not only is this incredibly unprofessional since the parent is the decision-maker and guardian, it's unethical.

Hmm you've not been in an adolescent clinic where the child asks the parent to leave then ever have you?

I've worked in healthcare and mental health most my adult life and I have never seen this happen, either as a patient or as a provider.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argume...ment_from_incredulity_.2F_Lack_of_imagination

and its not just children sir, and TSA agents don't have nearly the authority or influence that a doctor has.
 
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See my edit. You were probably already responding when I realized my omission. I'm talking about young children, such as the ones shown in the videos that were previously posted.

I am glad that TSA has announced that kids under the age of 12 will no longer have to be physically screened for this very reason, but it still leaves the issue of adult survivors of rape and assault.
 
Look, I'll agree that Blind's argument for sexual crime victims is covering a minority of fliers, but he is just talking from his reality (IIRC, he is a psychologist / psychiatrist ... that lack of distinction is not an insult, just a shortage of knowledge on my part).

The 4th amendment should be reason enough, and them some, for the argument against the TSA.
 
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See my edit. You were probably already responding when I realized my omission. I'm talking about young children, such as the ones shown in the videos that were previously posted.

I am glad that TSA has announced that kids under the age of 12 will no longer have to be physically screened for this very reason, but it still leaves the issue of adult survivors of rape and assault.

You're right I hadn't done, but we're getting a bit off topic. my point still stands that just because something fits a weird black and white interpretation of someones defenition of molestation or assault, there are other variables involved before you get to accuse someone (let alone an entire government agency) of being a child molester or a rapist.
 
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Look, I'll agree that Blind's argument for sexual crime victims is covering a minority of fliers, but he's just talking from his reality (IIRC, he is a psychologist / psychiatrist ... that lack of distinction is not an insult, just a shortage of knowledge on my part).

The 4th amendment should be reason enough, and them some, for the argument against the TSA.

If people are willing to temporarily curtail their rights so they can board an aircraft and maybe feel a little bit safer doing so, then who are you to say they can't? I don't thing airport check-in is a big enough issue for most people to go up in arms and cry about their rights being violated.
 
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