WikiLeaks strikes again -- U.S. diplomacy stripped naked

1. Ok, better analogy- "If I had some matches right now, I'd burn down your business". You were threatening to incapacitate the virtual "shop-front" of this organisation.

Fair enough. However, if I had the capability to do it I still would. No one is benefitting from this site's nonsense. If anything it has made the jobs of those employed by the government a bigger pain in the ass. Now gov'ts will spend more money a closer-knit security and confidentiality due to stupid and mindless organizations like these.

2. Seriously? Sweden would issue an arrest warrant for you, your the authorities that preside over the jurisdiction you are currently in will then arrest you. An extradition hearing will be held, and if there is a prima facie case you will be extradited to Sweden to face the charges there. Does sound familiar...?

According to US law, the request for extradition must be reviewed by the Justice Department's Office of International Affairs then the US Attorney Office, and finally by the Secretary of State. So if I were to commit such an act, how do you think these offices will rule? In the eyes of the gov't, I'd be doing them a huge favor, why would they release me to Sweden?

3. There is a legal distinction between the theft and the leaking of property (theft is the taking of property, with no intention of returning it. Leaking is where copies of a document are taken. The originals stay where they are, somebody has just illegally obtained and disseminated copies.) Hence why wikileaks (or any other person/organisation possessing the leaked documents for that matter) can be charged with possession of stolen property. By your definition, we should be charging every person who downloaded the cables (including major news agencies) with possession of stolen property)

Movies and music get "leaked" all the time they are never physically taken yet the copyright laws allow hollywood and the RIAA track people down charge them to the full extent of copyright law.

Oh yeah, and as others have said, even if something is marked as confidential/secret/whatever, it is still under the ownership of the people. Only access to it is restricted. Again, this is why the documents cannot be regarded as stolen if the people who technically own them took them. Hence the need for criminal law regarding leaking the documents.

This country already has its laundry list of laws regarding confidential documents and the end of the day if you take a document without permission you will be tried and arrested.

4. The reason the site/Assange cannot be charged with treason has been stated over and over. Assange is an Australian citizen, not American. You can only commit treason against the country you are a citizen of. And I'm not even sure if organisations can be accused of treason in the first place (and no way would Wikileaks be a US-based organisation)

Yes, I understand that. It is unfortunate that he cannot be charged with any real crime but that is the harsh reality of the situation. I don't agree with the US for making up a crime to have him arrested but their needs to be some action so this doesn't happen again.

5. Yeah, the US is going to put one hacker's interests over that of a fair judicial system, international fairness, the wishes of the prosecutors, etc. There is also a little thing (at least, I hope the US has this- works wonders in Aus) called the separation of powers- the judicial system is completely separate from the legislative system. The government has no control over the courts, the judges or their rulings. In other words, the only thing the government could do for you if you were charged is try and fight having to arrest you (which I doubt would happen-way people are talking at the moment it seems like Sweden and the US have an extradition treaty in place) or give you a good lawyer. They don't have the power to wave a wand and make the charges go away. Or at least I hope all of that is true, somebody clues up on US law feel free to correct me if there is no separation of powers in the US.

Haven't you heard of presidential pardons?

Very few countries could give a shit about international "fairness" especially when it involves the best interests of said country. Also no country would be able to trace my attempt at shutting the site down, so all of this is null.

Wikileaks has given those that have viewed and downloaded the cables a loaded gun and now the world will have to depend on the ethics of these citizens and hope nothing negative will come from this. But, knowing how people in this world behave and where their true ethics lie I can't say that I'm optimistic about the out come.

On top of all this, I feel sorry for all future and current employees of the US gov't as the added bureaucracy due to this bullshit will suck big time.
 
In a Hollywood movie, if someone accidentally hears one word they get taken out... how long until this guy gets taken out.
 
No one is benefitting from this site's nonsense.

Wikileaks made it easier to understand who did what behind the scenes of the Loveparade accident. Seeing how experts got paid tens of thousands for their "opinion" while planning, how they fiddled with the allowable visitor numbers, etc - all that makes it easier to punish the guilty and hopefully avoid similar things happening again.

Publishing details of corruption in Kenia may help the people there fight it - after all, you can't fight something you don't know about.

Leaking Swiss bank details helps prosecute tax evaders.

I could go on for days.


Movies and music get "leaked" all the time they are never physically taken yet the copyright laws allow hollywood and the RIAA track people down charge them to the full extent of copyright law.

Work of the government is not protected by copyright laws.

Wikileaks has given those that have viewed and downloaded the cables a loaded gun and now the world will have to depend on the ethics of these citizens and hope nothing negative will come from this. But, knowing how people in this world behave and where their true ethics lie I can't say that I'm optimistic about the out come.

I have viewed and downloaded cables, there was no gun. In fact, if you want to get rid of guns, ...
 
People benefit from the stories of the journalists who actually formulate proper opinions they understand the ethical code not everyone that has access to this website and its information can say the same thing.

Work of the government is not protected by copyright laws.

Guess what's going to change in the near future...

I have viewed and downloaded cables, there was no gun. In fact, if you want to get rid of guns, ...

A loaded gun, in the philosophical tense.
 
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People benefit from the stories of the journalists who actually formulate proper opinions they understand the ethical code not everyone that has access to this website does.

Without wikileaks they would have less material to write about.
Also, having less understanding or not having "proper opinions" (whatever that is) should not affect your access to information.

Guess what's going to change in the near future...

Idunno... all I know is, title 17 ?105 of the US Copyright Act isn't going to change. After all, if someone violates his contract in respect to not leaking material, is a measly copyright violation going to stop him?
Also, the people would be outraged. Things like the Freedom of Information Act would clash with government work being copyrighted.

A loaded gun, in the philosophical tense.

I know. There was no such thing.
 
Fair enough. However, if I had the capability to do it I still would. No one is benefitting from this site's nonsense. If anything it has made the jobs of those employed by the government a bigger pain in the ass. Now gov'ts will spend more money a closer-knit security and confidentiality due to stupid and mindless organizations like these.

I would say i have. I have learnt more about the party I formerly supported, and I didn't like what i heard and read. Greater transparency has hence benfitted me.

According to US law, the request for extradition must be reviewed by the Justice Department's Office of International Affairs then the US Attorney Office, and finally by the Secretary of State. So if I were to commit such an act, how do you think these offices will rule? In the eyes of the gov't, I'd be doing them a huge favor, why would they release me to Sweden?

It shouldn't matter whether or not you are doing them a favour, the issue should be whether or not there is neough evidence to suggest that you have committed a crime in that jurisdiction. Discretion such as that is left for the judges at the actual trial normally.

Movies and music get "leaked" all the time they are never physically taken yet the copyright laws allow hollywood and the RIAA track people down charge them to the full extent of copyright law.

addressed this in a later post. That sort of propery is privately owned, and as such copyright law can apply. Copyright cannot be applied to gov't documents as they are the property of the citizens of that country.

This country already has its laundry list of laws regarding confidential documents and the end of the day if you take a document without permission you will be tried and arrested.

Fully agree with that (as long as the person receives a fair and transparent trial). However, Wikileaks has not actually been the one procuring the documents from their original source (i.e. the ones taking them from the gov't) and leaking them to an organisation. At least, as far as we know (and if it does turn out that Wikileaks had a direct hand in getting the documents from the gov't, I will definitely not support them any further)

Yes, I understand that. It is unfortunate that he cannot be charged with any real crime but that is the harsh reality of the situation. I don't agree with the US for making up a crime to have him arrested but their needs to be some action so this doesn't happen again.

There are talk of him being tried under espionage laws, but that seems sketchy at best. As long as no deaths can be directly attributed to the leaks and he/Wikileaks is not directly involved in taking the documents, he hasn't done anything legally wrong IMO. Morally is another kettle of fish of course.

Haven't you heard of presidential pardons?

No, not in the US specifically sorry (the only place I know of having those before that was Indonesia, Australia doesn't have any such system)

Very few countries could give a shit about international "fairness" especially when it involves the best interests of said country. Also no country would be able to trace my attempt at shutting the site down, so all of this is null.

You don't know what technology the gov't has access to, so you can't say that with any confidence sorry.

Wikileaks has given those that have viewed and downloaded the cables a loaded gun and now the world will have to depend on the ethics of these citizens and hope nothing negative will come from this. But, knowing how people in this world behave and where their true ethics lie I can't say that I'm optimistic about the out come.

On top of all this, I feel sorry for all future and current employees of the US gov't as the added bureaucracy due to this bullshit will suck big time.

Not sure I agree with this one sorry. Many people worldwide will not hear of this, and the ones that do will most likely be getting the condensed, user-friendly media version.

I understand what you are talking about there (i.e. terrorist groups getting the cables), but so far nothing specifically bad for anybody seems to have been released IMO. As has been said already, most of the stuff in the "critical infrastructure" cable can be found with an easy google search. And judging by the comments of one of the Australian factories, the list is out of date. And as is said here, one of the reasons why these cables are being released so slowly (apart from trying to grab headlines for as long as possible) is most likely to allow data that could result in danger/deaths for people is being censored. As I've said before, these people aren't stupid. They want the money and positive headlines to keep flowing in. They release anything to put lives in danger, and both of those will stop and be replaced by bad publicity and calls for some actually justifiable arrests.
 
^ Why do you even bother arguing with that guy? He obviously hasn't read anything more indepth with regards to the leaked documents and is formulating his opinions by taking everything at face value.

Here is a 7,000 word essay, supported by facts, saying there is no real evidence that the government needs secrecy to operate for our greater good (as opposed to their own self-interest) and also that knowing more about what the government does is never a bad thing.

https://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/20...defense-of-diplomatic-secrecy-and-east-timor/
Quoting just the conclusion here:
I don?t know how to highly to value that proof; I?m not sure whether Wikileaks just adds to a store of knowledge that we already have or if it represents something new. But the idea that it?s a bad thing to know more about the how the governments that act in our names actually behave is laughable, and the idea that impeding their ability to act secretly prevents them from advancing the cause of justice and human rights, it seems to me, is utterly without merit. There may be a human rights argument against what Wikileaks does; it may be that they?ve been sloppy in the data they?ve released. But given how many times I?ve seen that charge laid at their feet, and how completely unsupported by any credible evidence it has been, without exception, I?m not willing to give people like Gilmore the benefit of the doubt. If anyone has actual examples of a time when government secrecy was used for something other than exerting force in support of self-interest, I?d like to hear it. But until then, I?m going to continue to assume, as usual, that the only check on the amorality of the state is a moral citizenry. And the only way that citizens can act as a check on the state?s amorality is when they know what their government is doing. Hiding cables from the public does the opposite of accomplishing that.
 
It's too bad no one accepted my challenge. But I was half expecting that. People are much too entangled in their personal dogfights. It seems like they prefer to lose themselves in details and trivilialities, instead of discussing the point this is all about: Freedom of information and who decides what the people are allowed to know?
 
If I can comment on your question, personally I believe that information should be free, besides from copyrighted information, which isn't the case of the leaks mind you. Also I think that nobody (not a single person or a group) should be deciding what information should be people allowed to know, because anybody with that kind of authority will be very tempted to misuse this great power. After all, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely:clarkson:.

So, are you going to tell us who is the author of the text? I haven't googled it on purpose, you know.
 
It's too bad no one accepted my challenge. But I was half expecting that. People are much too entangled in their personal dogfights. It seems like they prefer to lose themselves in details and trivilialities, instead of discussing the point this is all about: Freedom of information and who decides what the people are allowed to know?

You'd probably get a better response starting a new thread instead of trying to get people to respond in this one.
 
One can also use Flattr to donate to Wikileaks.

Guardian said:
The oil giant Shell claimed it had inserted staff into all the main ministries of the Nigerian government, giving it access to politicians' every move in the oil-rich Niger Delta, according to a leaked US diplomatic cable.

The company's top executive in Nigeria told US diplomats that Shell had seconded employees to every relevant department and so knew "everything that was being done in those ministries". She boasted that the Nigerian government had "forgotten" about the extent of Shell's infiltration and was unaware of how much the company knew about its deliberations.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-cables-shell-nigeria-spying

Cellos88 will argue that this knowledge is not beneficial to the people of Nigeria, I'd like him to motivate why.
 
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In a Hollywood movie, if someone accidentally hears one word they get taken out... how long until this guy gets taken out.

Wouldn't happen. Not with the US. Perhaps with Iran, Israel, France or Saudi Arabia, but not the US.
 
I have been hearing that you guys think of Wikileaks as a Journalistic organization. The Washington correspondent for The New York Times does not believe that to be the case. He gives a compelling argument.
A couple of quotes from the NPR interview with David Sanger.
"This was never an easy decision to publish national security information," he says. "I think at the end of this process, what we did was responsible, it was legal and it was important for a democratic society."

Here is something that I find very interesting, and very opposite of what you guys are saying in this thread. David Sanger thinks that these documents show how America has been very straight forward with what they say and what they do.
Do you consider Julian Assange a journalist?

Mr. SANGER: I don't, and the reason is that I believe what journalists do is not only dig out information but filter it, explain it, put it in context, do those things that you've come to expect of the New York Times and other great American newspapers and other media organizations for many decades. That's a very different thing from simply downloading a computer system and throwing it out onto the World Wide Web.

He's coming to this with a political motivation. As journalists at the Times and elsewhere, we are not. We are coming at this to explain the world. He was trying, just to use his own words, to embarrass the United States and make clear that America's actions are different than its rhetoric.

Well, in fact when you look through these documents, America's actions are pretty consistent with its rhetoric.

Here is the transcript.
Here is the main story
 
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It's too bad no one accepted my challenge. But I was half expecting that. People are much too entangled in their personal dogfights. It seems like they prefer to lose themselves in details and trivilialities, instead of discussing the point this is all about: Freedom of information and who decides what the people are allowed to know?

It is a very hard question to answer. I could make for an interesting discussion, but the way you approached it (with the quote you pulled out) feels nearly like trolling. I don't think that was your intention, but in the end, either you support full disclosure or you agree with Hitler. Not the greatest of choices.

I will try to address the issue, though. As I have mentioned before, the US government, specifically, is created as an employee of the public, and has a responsibility to inform the public of its doings and change them if the majority says to do so. As a nation, though, we want to be as strong on the world stage as possible in all aspects. Just like companies hold product details secret so that their competitors do not get an upper hand (See Coca-Cola), there are some things that governments need to keep to themselves so that others do not have the same advantage. This is mostly relevant in the diplomacy and military aspects. When the govt contracts the development of a highly sophisticated aircraft, it is with the intent of retaining military supremacy. If the details of this aircraft are not kept secret, it leaves them open to be used by any other nation, friend or foe. It also allows those other nations to learn the weaknesses and gain an advantage on the battlefield. In diplomacy, it is often necessary to feign a friendly face for the sake of progress and peace. I'm certain China does not have a good reputation in the White House, but it is necessary to at least be polite in the public forum so that no party is offended. The US and China being at odds is not good for the world. What the WH discusses within itself in regards to China is useful if kept secret.

To keep details such as those mentioned, it is unfortunately necessary to hold them secret from the nation's citizens, for if the citizens know the secrets, then non-citizens can know, which means other nations can know. To this point, everything has been of my personal opinion, which can be debated. But now I will address the main question, who decides what is secret.

When we elect a President and congressmen, we do so with the understanding that these people are responsible, intelligent, and working towards what is best for us. As a representative democracy, we are putting our trust in these few so as to create a streamlined government process, and in doing so, we are indirectly giving up the opportunity to personally and directly affect the govt process. Essentially, we are giving these people to make decisions for us. Because of this, it would be logical to assume we are giving them the ability to determine what is necessary to keep secret and what isn't. If we do not like what is being kept secret, then it is our duty as citizens to vote somebody into office that will make the topic public, and bring to justice those who keep illegal/unethical/immoral acts/programs secret from us. This is obviously a problem because, if it is secret, how would we ever know about it? One answer is that it is a trust issue. We must hold some level of trust in politicians, otherwise we shouldn't vote for them. Another answer as that we have trust in our fellow citizens who do get involved in govt as hired workers, who make public things that should be public (whistle blowing).

This is where Wikileaks and Private Bradley Manning. They did exactly that, made public what [they thought] should be public. What should be the issue of focus is whether any of the information leaked was helpful for the public to know (does it affect our view on what the govt is doing) and whether any of the information is damaging for people outside the US to know (military strategy, internal diplomatic cables, etc). IMO, the majority of the leak is unnecessary, unhelpful, and perhaps slightly damaging. Is it getting anyone killed? Probably not. Is it hurting diplomatic talks? Possibly. I find the leak irresponsible on Wikileaks side partly because Wikileaks is not a US institution. It should be up to citizens of the US to determine what other US citizens need to know. Obviously outsiders won't care what comes to light, it doesn't affect them poorly. The same cannot be said for US citizens.

TL;DR We put out trust in politicians by voting for them, we should trust them to do the right thing until we do not think they are, and then we vote them out. I applaud anyone who lets the public know of any wrongdoings withing govt, but look down upon those who let confidential information known just for the sake of leaking it. Julian Assange is irresponsible, and Bradley Manning should be investigated and brought to court to be tried by a jury of his peers.
 
I have been hearing that you guys think of Wikileaks as a Journalistic organization. The Washington correspondent for The New York Times does not believe that to be the case. He gives a compelling argument.

It's not up to the Washinton correspondent for the New York Times to decide what is and what is not a journalistic organization. It's not up to anyone to decide that about someone or any organization.

Edit: Oh, and as for political motivation in journalism, most journalists vote, and they have their opinions on politics. Some even have agendas.

You know what? Glenn Beck is a journalist. And it doesn't hurt me to say that.
 
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In diplomacy, it is often necessary to feign a friendly face for the sake of progress and peace. I'm certain China does not have a good reputation in the White House, but it is necessary to at least be polite in the public forum so that no party is offended. The US and China being at odds is not good for the world. What the WH discusses within itself in regards to China is useful if kept secret.
To keep details such as those mentioned, it is unfortunately necessary to hold them secret from the nation's citizens, for if the citizens know the secrets, then non-citizens can know, which means other nations can know. To this point, everything has been of my personal opinion, which can be debated. But now I will address the main question, who decides what is secret.


The diplomacy you describe is not possible in a democracy/republic. The people decide how they act collectively on the world stage. How do we know if our representatives are ignoring us or fucking us over if a significant portion is made private?




When we elect a President and congressmen, we do so with the understanding that these people are responsible, intelligent, and working towards what is best for us. As a representative democracy, we are putting our trust in these few so as to create a streamlined government process, and in doing so, we are indirectly giving up the opportunity to personally and directly affect the govt process. Essentially, we are giving these people to make decisions for us. Because of this, it would be logical to assume we are giving them the ability to determine what is necessary to keep secret and what isn't. If we do not like what is being kept secret, then it is our duty as citizens to vote somebody into office that will make the topic public, and bring to justice those who keep illegal/unethical/immoral acts/programs secret from us. This is obviously a problem because, if it is secret, how would we ever know about it? One answer is that it is a trust issue. We must hold some level of trust in politicians, otherwise we shouldn't vote for them. Another answer as that we have trust in our fellow citizens who do get involved in govt as hired workers, who make public things that should be public (whistle blowing).

I do not blindly trust my representatives, they are human after all. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.


This is where Wikileaks and Private Bradley Manning. They did exactly that, made public what [they thought] should be public. What should be the issue of focus is whether any of the information leaked was helpful for the public to know (does it affect our view on what the govt is doing) and whether any of the information is damaging for people outside the US to know (military strategy, internal diplomatic cables, etc). IMO, the majority of the leak is unnecessary, unhelpful, and perhaps slightly damaging. Is it getting anyone killed? Probably not. Is it hurting diplomatic talks? Possibly. I find the leak irresponsible on Wikileaks side partly because Wikileaks is not a US institution. It should be up to citizens of the US to determine what other US citizens need to know. Obviously outsiders won't care what comes to light, it doesn't affect them poorly. The same cannot be said for US citizens.

The U.S. government has too many secrets, I as a citizen should be able to judge what they are doing. Dictators and oligarchs work in secret, free governments should not.
 
He's coming to this with a political motivation. As journalists at the Times and elsewhere, we are not.
Says the guy working for "Center for a New American Security", Council on Foreign Relations and Aspen Strategy, to name a few.

Center for a new american security mission statement said:
"develop strong, pragmatic and principled national security and defense policies that promote and protect American interests and values.
CFR meanwhile is a "interventionist think tank". Clearly a non-political kind of guy.
 
I like the reaction of Russia's Medvedev, who basically says "that's business at ususal in any nation's foreign affairs, including our own".

"We are not paranoid and we do not link Russian-American relations with any leaks, although the leaks are revealing. They show a full measure of cynicism of those evaluations and judgments that often prevail in the foreign policy of various states, in this case I am referring to the United States," Medvedev said.

The president added that the United States would also "get a lot of pleasure" from Russian diplomatic cable leaks.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20101203/161610366.html
 
^ Why do you even bother arguing with that guy? He obviously hasn't read anything more indepth with regards to the leaked documents and is formulating his opinions by taking everything at face value.

Why shouldn't she? Are my opinions too unpleasant for her to address? Is it difficult to understand that people have differing opinions on this issue? If you want to blow me off thats fine but understand that not everyone agrees with what is going on here and it's not because "we don't understand".

Here is a 7,000 word essay, supported by facts, saying there is no real evidence that the government needs secrecy to operate for our greater good (as opposed to their own self-interest) and also that knowing more about what the government does is never a bad thing.:

So would you mind telling me how WWII would have ended if the gov'ts of the Allies didn't work in secrecy? What about technological information? The details and plans for future nuclear plants held by the US's NRC are contained in confidential documents, should we release those to world? Should we let people know how to infiltrate the security systems of power plants, refineries, military bases, etc.? Where does it end? When can there be secrecy?

Confidential documents go beyond the cables of gov't diplomats, I will agree that a lot of them are bullshit and pointless but there are many that need to remain secret. The other issue with release documents is that of context, how can one ensure that a released document will be understood in the context of its information?
 
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