Random Thoughts... [Automotive Edition]

[katwalk]

There is honestly nothing I like about the mini more than any other car that size and they are more money to buy, run, and repair.

 

[Pry]

Ok, so you probably don't like driving too much.
I like to drive just for fun and I've never driven a FWD car that was more fun to drive than my Cooper S was.

 

[captain_70s]

Ok, so you probably don't like driving too much.
I like to drive just for fun and I've never driven a FWD car that was more fun to drive than my Cooper S was.

The thing is, I bet there are cars out there that are as fun as the Mini to drive, the Mini is overpriced. Like most retro inspired cars you pay a little bit extra for the badge.

 

[Spectre]

The thing is, I bet there are cars out there that are as fun as the Mini to drive, the Mini is overpriced. Like most retro inspired cars you pay a little bit extra for the badge.

It's BMW, you pay a lot extra for the badge.

 

[captain_70s]

It's BMW, you pay a lot extra for the badge.

And the parts and servicing!

I can't say the Mini is a bad car, because I don't think it is, but you can get cars just as good for less money. I have the same opinion of the original Mini, I find the idea of paying ?8000 for a 1960s shopping car disgusting!

 

[Pry]

The thing is, I bet there are cars out there that are as fun as the Mini to drive, the Mini is overpriced. Like most retro inspired cars you pay a little bit extra for the badge.

Some sporty little Renaults may be in the same category for fun. Larger, more powerful cars like a Focus RS may be faster but not neccesarily more fun in everyday traffic.

 

[katwalk]

Ok, so you probably don't like driving too much.
I like to drive just for fun and I've never driven a FWD car that was more fun to drive than my Cooper S was.

I don't like a car so I don't like driving? Wow. I also find it hilarious that I got that comment about a mini when I also turned down a miata, which has a base msrp that is actually $590 cheaper than a cooper s.
If I am buying a car with things I don't want I think I will take the miata as even if a mini IS the most fun FWD car ever that doesn't mean it is as fun as shit in the same price range.

 

[Evel]

I don't know if the Bug is able to wait it out until 2012, but seeing as you liked the Focus RS, maybe the upcoming Focus ST would interest you?

 

[Leadfoot866]

Went to a field to help my brother's friend try to test their DIY gas turbine.

Had to wait a little while because they got hung up in traffic (it was rush hour). While I waited, I got the crazy idea to do some light off-roading ( if you could actually call it that. It was just a really muddy and broken dirt trail) in the Cavalier. Made it about halfway up the hill before the mud decided "NO, this is as far as you go you asshole!"

Maybe I'll try again in the summer when it's warm and dry.

Probably the most fun I've had in the Cavalier, which is now has a nice coat of mud running along the bottom.

- Dan

P.S. I want a truck now...

 

[CAPT_Howdy]

No, the US market EuroVan was desperately underpowered to the point that it was unsafe. It was 'won't climb a mountain pass with four people and luggage if there's the slightest headwind' underpowered.

Anyone who lived in CA and got stuck behind one toiling up the Grapevine or the Cajon Pass can testify to this - the noise, the smoke, the fact that despite the driver clearly having the pedal mashed down a far as it would go it was only going 25mph in a 60 and was still losing speed...

I always thought that the EuroVan's lack of success in the US market had less to do with it being underpowered (Being underpowered didn't seem to hurt the T1-T3/Vanagon models any) than the fact that it was overpriced. VW tried to price it competitively, but in order to do that they had to remove a lot of equipment that was standard in US minivans. Also, where the Caravan & Voyager were low enough to fit in the average suburban garage, the EuroVan had to stay in the driveway. It also drove more like a full size van (Even after adding the 201hp VR6 in 2001) and less like a car - another key selling point for the Chrysler minivans.

Volkswagen had 7 years to respond to the Chrysler minivans (And closer to home, the Renault Espace) and they decided to go their own way. But unfortunately what worked in 1953 did not work in 1993.

 

[katwalk]

I don't know if the Bug is able to wait it out until 2012, but seeing as you liked the Focus RS, maybe the upcoming Focus ST would interest you?

I am annoyed at how little info I can find on this. Sounds like a great candidate as I have spent half the day whining about how I want a sporty focus :lol:

 

[Evel]

I am annoyed at how little info I can find on this. Sounds like a great candidate as I have spent half the day whining about how I want a sporty focus :lol:

I wrote up an article about the car last September over here, should provide you with plenty of details.

 

[narf]

Power's important in that stereotypical American way Alone, the power seems adequate..but compared to the vans closest to Eurovan's size at it's launch here it was outnumbered:

93 Eurovan: 108 horsepower
93 Grand Caravan/Grand Voyager: 142 horsepower minimum...you could get up to 162 hp depending on engine
93 Previa: 135 horsepower
93 Aerostar: 145 horsepower minimum...you could get a 160 hp engine
93 Safari/Astro: 165 horsepower minimum...you could get a 200 hp engine

And yet, ours worked fine with 57hp of pure naturally aspirated 1.7 diesel goodness. Worked in the alps as well, also on skiing vacation in Norway (with chains, obviously). If you're worried about snow/off-road capabiltiy there's always the Syncro:

https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2011/04/06/dyn010_original_599_449_jpeg_2585886_f8b005aaae7e9cc5f401373a78dde414.jpg

It wasn't until 96 that the driver's side sliding door was thrust into the mainstream by Chrysler. Since they were the leader in minivans at the time (arguably still am) buyers expected at least the option of that door. Ford was caught flat footed by the driver's sliding door's absence and fought back with a "king door" on the Windstar, where the drivers seat could tip/slide forward like a coupe for 2nd row access. They claimed it allowed parents to control street side access, but it was a flop. GM was just plain lucky, having designed the U-body vans (Venture/Sintra, etc..) for global sales.

Ours was a 5/6-seater, so there never was any problem acessing any seat. The sixth seat was optional, and only bolted in when needed / unbolted when the space was needed. If this is your entrance to the three back seats, who needs another door?

https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2011/04/06/2009022709513049a7a9927d8bb.jpg

You can see the additional cupholder and ashtray to the right of the foldaway table, this is where the sixth seat would be if bolted in.

In fact, we rarely used the front doors. Open the big sliding door, everyone piles in, go.

Toolless removal is important in this segment here, esp in the late 90s - early 2000's era that later Eurovan's competed in. The van that MotorWeek reviewed in 2002 was a GLS with traditional seating and no camping package....so the third row should have been removable without tools.

Yeah, I see lots of people proud of their smart foldaway/removeable seats. Do they ever remove the seats?

Did we ever feel the need to remove any seat (apart from the sixth optional one)?
With the engine in the back, folding the rear bench gave a wonderful space for large flat stuff such as furniture. Leaving the bench up gave a nice space in the middle and back for bulky stuff.
With the front-engined models I see some point in removing the rear bench though because the old engine bay becomes much more usable that way.

https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2011/04/06/volkswagen_multivan_2418824_3_orig.jpg

Haha that sounds awesome...and no..I won't dare ask the price!

If you must know... the 2l biturbo diesel Multivan starts at 48000? over here. Jeremy had its predecessor, larger capacity but only one turbo and six horsepower less.
You can get one for 60000? without any extras specced yet, that'd be the 2l biturbo diesel 7-speed DSG *deep breath* 4MOTION Multivan Highline... after checking a lot of optional extras you're fast approaching 90000?

Volkswagen had 7 years to respond to the Chrysler minivans (And closer to home, the Renault Espace) and they decided to go their own way. But unfortunately what worked in 1953 did not work in 1993.

Closer to home, responding to the Espace worked well enough. There's the T5 if you want a boxy jack of all trades. There's the Sharan if you want a large family van (US: "minivan"). There's the Touran if you want a mid-sized family van. There's the Caddy Life if you want a small family van. Some Caddy models even come with a tent that's integrated into the boot lid.

https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2011/04/06/cdp0026.jpg

 

[Pry]

I don't like a car so I don't like driving? Wow. I also find it hilarious that I got that comment about a mini when I also turned down a miata, which has a base msrp that is actually $590 cheaper than a cooper s.
If I am buying a car with things I don't want I think I will take the miata as even if a mini IS the most fun FWD car ever that doesn't mean it is as fun as shit in the same price range.

I was referring to this:

There is honestly nothing I like about the mini more than any other car that size

If you think any other car that size is as much fun to drive as a Mini you're wrong, you can't drive or you're weird.

It's FWD and it isn't a convertible so it's an easier choice for the winter than a Miata.

 

[captain_70s]

I was referring to this:
If you think any other car that size is as much fun to drive as a Mini you're wrong, you can't drive or you're weird.

I do hope you have driven ever single Mini sized car ever built and tested them comprehensively and without discrimination to come to that conclusion. Because otherwise that comment is pretty insulting to everybody who would have a better car than a Mini, of which (I'm sorry to say) there are probably several...

 

[Pry]

I do hope you have driven ever single Mini sized car ever built and tested them comprehensively and without discrimination to come to that conclusion. Because otherwise that comment is pretty insulting to everybody who would have a better car than a Mini, of which (I'm sorry to say) there are probably several...

She said Any other car that size. Mini is more fun than most of them.

 

[CAPT_Howdy]

Closer to home, responding to the Espace worked well enough. There's the T5 if you want a boxy jack of all trades. There's the Sharan if you want a large family van (US: "minivan"). There's the Touran if you want a mid-sized family van. There's the Caddy Life if you want a small family van. Some Caddy models even come with a tent.

I liked the Sharan, and really wish Volkswagen had imported it. That would have been a much better alternative to the US minivans than the EuroVan, which was more like the full-sized American vans. But VW spent a lot of time and money federalizing the EuroVan, and had to recoup that investment.

On another note, I have got to stop looking at Craigslist until I actually get my severance check. Even after chopping my car budget down from $20,000 to $10,000 I'm still seeing a lot of cars I want. 2000 E39 540i 6 speed? Want. 2001 Jaguar XJR? Want. 2002 Cadillac DTS? Want. (Kinda) 1998 Jaguar XJ8 Vanden Plas? Want. 2000 Audi A6 4.2 Quattro? Want. 2002 VW New Beetle Turbo S? Want. (Help me!) 2002 Infiniti Q45? Definitely want. (I love cars that you don't see every day.) 2005 Kia Amanti? Wa- okay, I've gone mad now.

 

[katwalk]

She said Any other car that size. Mini is more fun than most of them.

I was referring to this:

If you think any other car that size is as much fun to drive as a Mini you're wrong, you can't drive or you're weird.

Are you paying attention to what you are saying? Yes, I said the mini doesn't do anything for me that any other car that size. That is probably wrong because toyota makes cars that size and they are clearly less desirable. You however said that if I think any car that size is as fun as a mini I am wrong and can't drive indicating you think the mini is the best car of that class as well. You know why I really hate minis? because of that fucking attitude that goes along with them. It's like the Apple of the car world. An expensive badge, some shiny bits and a different layout. Slightly better than the competition maybe but if you don't love it it is in no way worth the price.

 

[rickhamilton620]

And yet, ours worked fine with 57hp of pure naturally aspirated 1.7 diesel goodness. Worked in the alps as well, also on skiing vacation in Norway (with chains, obviously). If you're worried about snow/off-road capabiltiy there's always the Syncro:

*awesome Syncro*

mmm, Syncro goodness! :nods:

Remember though, diesel's have gobs of low down torque, gas engines don't fare as well. Overall, most Americans judge acceleration by the seat of the pants feeling as they leave the dealership parking lot on the test drive/pull away from stoplights, etc. It's one reason why the unusually heavy 1st gen USDM Kia Sedona has a ultra low first gear-It feels frisky in town but can lose steam on the highway when it's time to pass.

Ours was a 5/6-seater, so there never was any problem acessing any seat. The sixth seat was optional, and only bolted in when needed / unbolted when the space was needed. If this is your entrance to the three back seats, who needs another door?

*interior shot*

You can see the additional cupholder and ashtray to the right of the foldaway table, this is where the sixth seat would be if bolted in.

In fact, we rarely used the front doors. Open the big sliding door, everyone piles in, go.

Nice, digging your photos btw! Here in the state's there was always two seats in the second row...either rear facing on MV models (The ones with the table and stuff) or front facing on GLS trims. This matches most every other van sold here. The advantage of having a driver's side door here is that not only can larger families enter/exit the van faster, but parents no longer need to climb way into the van to strap a kid into a child seat if they're in the second row. Most families I knew with minivans, us included, put the younger kids in the 2nd row to keep an eye on them, and let the teens/older kids get in the third row.

I do agree though that if you'll use the camping features, having the configuration that you had is the best.

Yeah, I see lots of people proud of their smart foldaway/removeable seats. Do they ever remove the seats?

Did we ever feel the need to remove any seat (apart from the sixth optional one)?
With the engine in the back, folding the rear bench gave a wonderful space for large flat stuff such as furniture. Leaving the bench up gave a nice space in the middle and back for bulky stuff.
With the front-engined models I see some point in removing the rear bench though because the old engine bay becomes much more usable that way.

*storage space*

The advantage of having a fold away third row seat is that you don't need to think about where to put it- If you decide on a whim during a trip to pick up something (or if its bigger than you thought) you can simply pull two to three straps and bam...seat's gone! Same with the 2nd row on current and previous generation Chrysler vans:

When the seats are up, you get a deep storage well that's perfect for storing items that are bulky like strollers and sports bags. You can even get storage bins for the storage wells that allow for "two-tier" loading a la Eurovan:

http://img217.imageshack.**/img217/64/underfloorstorage.png


We removed the seats in our Grand Voyager many a time, each time was easy and w/out tools.

If you must know... the 2l biturbo diesel Multivan starts at 48000? over here. Jeremy had its predecessor, larger capacity but only one turbo and six horsepower less.
You can get one for 60000? without any extras specced yet, that'd be the 2l biturbo diesel 7-speed DSG *deep breath* 4MOTION Multivan Highline... after checking a lot of optional extras you're fast approaching 90000?

I'd love a Multivan PanAmericana: Off-roadable minivan?.....yes please!

Closer to home, responding to the Espace worked well enough. There's the T5 if you want a boxy jack of all trades. There's the Sharan if you want a large family van (US: "minivan"). There's the Touran if you want a mid-sized family van. There's the Caddy Life if you want a small family van. Some Caddy models even come with a tent that's integrated into the boot lid.

I wish they would have either given us a stretched Touran (better yet offer two sizes) or the refreshed Caddy Life and Caddy Maxi Life:

Make that third row slide fore and aft a bit for leg room and I think they would have had a winner, esp. with a TDI

Yep..its clear...I'm a van nerd...

I always thought that the EuroVan's lack of success in the US market had less to do with it being underpowered (Being underpowered didn't seem to hurt the T1-T3/Vanagon models any) than the fact that it was overpriced. VW tried to price it competitively, but in order to do that they had to remove a lot of equipment that was standard in US minivans. Also, where the Caravan & Voyager were low enough to fit in the average suburban garage, the EuroVan had to stay in the driveway. It also drove more like a full size van (Even after adding the 201hp VR6 in 2001) and less like a car - another key selling point for the Chrysler minivans.

Volkswagen had 7 years to respond to the Chrysler minivans (And closer to home, the Renault Espace) and they decided to go their own way. But unfortunately what worked in 1953 did not work in 1993.

At launch in 93, the Eurovan's pricetag actually undercut the competition. It was when they relaunched it in 99 that they screwed the pooch with the pricing: A base GLS started at 32k...that was upper mid trim Odyssey, T&C, and Sienna money. Only reason I could see this was because this launch was right when the whole "VW is premium" thing began, that and possibly exchange rate. In 2002, they adjusted pricing to a much more reasonable 25k, right in the thick of it with Odyssey and Sienna base trims.

 

[Hbriz]

Some sporty little Renaults may be in the same category for fun. Larger, more powerful cars like a Focus RS may be faster but not neccesarily more fun in everyday traffic.

Biased, me?

Anyway, on the Multivan talk, when I has a kid I was always so desperately jealous of a kid whos family had a T4 Caravelle. That thing was awesome. I would want to give my children the fun of having a big family bus like that... unfortunately I don't think I could let myself drive one.