Miata Beaters

Really? That is interesting because a friend of mine who used to drive one said it was terrible at getting sideways because of the helical.
AP1s (and to a lesser degree AP2s, as well) are known for being unforgiving and snap-oversteering at the limit.


Some may consider me a murdering sycopath, but if I ever get to the point of considering the purchase of a Miata, there are a few cars I would cross shop, including a 3rd Gen Camaro IROC-Z. Cheap, and can be made to handle. Then there's the Fox-body Mustang 5.0, which yes, is mostly a drag car, but can also be modified to handle. Otherwise, RX-7, Mark III Supra, older BMW 3-series, or an Alfa Romeo Spider.
I will eat my tires if an Iroc-Z or a Fox body with no weight reduction, street legal tires, and reasonable suspension modifications (ie you cant rip everything out and completely redesign the geometry) manages to keep up with me through a tight corner.
 
I will eat my tires if an Iroc-Z or a Fox body with no weight reduction, street legal tires, and reasonable suspension modifications (ie you cant rip everything out and completely redesign the geometry) manages to keep up with me through a tight corner.

But what about a whole track? :p

Second the RX-8, having driven an NC, they feel quite similar. I think I preferred the NC but for my only car I have to concede the usefulness of rear seats.
 
AP1s (and to a lesser degree AP2s, as well) are known for being unforgiving and snap-oversteering at the limit.



I will eat my tires if an Iroc-Z or a Fox body with no weight reduction, street legal tires, and reasonable suspension modifications (ie you cant rip everything out and completely redesign the geometry) manages to keep up with me through a tight corner.

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These had their own bespoke IRS from the factory.
 
But what about a whole track? :p
They aren't very fast stock so sure, I'll go up against a stock motor IROC-Z or Fox-body.


These had their own bespoke IRS from the factory.
As much as I love the Terminator, its handling leaves much to be desired. However, I will admit that you can make that thing corner pretty damn quickly. That said, we were talking about fox-bodies before :p
 
That said, we were talking about fox-bodies before :p

It is a Fox body underneath. In fact the IRS will bolt right onto any Fox from '79-'04 without any modification.
 
It is a Fox body underneath. In fact the IRS will bolt right onto any Fox from '79-'04 without any modification.
I said reasonable suspension modifications :p Taking a live axle out in favor of IRS is pretty extensive in my book
 
I said reasonable suspension modifications :p Taking a live axle out in favor of IRS is pretty extensive in my book

Twenty bolts is extensive????

Also, if you start out with a Terminator, by swapping out the suspension bushings (no more than many Miata owners do) you can get massive handling improvements.
 
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Twenty bolts is extensive????
I don't care how many bolts it is, it's drastically altering the entire suspension setup of the car. That is extensive.

You know what, I'll up the ante - even with stock IRS swapped in, a fox body on stock-width street legal tires and with no weight reduction will not keep up with my Miata in a tight corner or an autocross course.
 
I don't care how many bolts it is, it's drastically altering the entire suspension setup of the car. That is extensive.

You know what, I'll up the ante - even with stock IRS swapped in, a fox body on stock-width street legal tires and with no weight reduction will not keep up with my Miata in a tight corner or an autocross course.

A Terminator Cobra is a Fox-body, and I am pretty sure it will whomp your Miata in a corner.

Edit: The Miata's handling prowess is unquestioned, but the Cobra's handling isn't terrible and it has very wide tires plus about FOUR HUNDRED horsepower to make up for deficiencies.
 
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A Terminator Cobra is a Fox-body, and I am pretty sure it will whomp your Miata in a corner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fox_platform
You were saying?


Edit: The Miata's handling prowess is unquestioned, but the Cobra's handling isn't terrible and it has very wide tires plus about FOUR HUNDRED horsepower to make up for deficiencies.
Yep, wide tires... and a whole lot of weight. And poor weight distribution. And 400hp? Yep, that's why I said autocross and tight corner :p Oh, and it's also why I said fox-body (referring specifically to the 5.0 because that's the one that was mentioned in this thread first).
 

Anyone who's worked on an SN95 knows that it's just a revised Fox. It's still a Fox, just some of the problems were removed (as is obvious if you check out the parts catalogs) and Ford fixed the chassis flex with subframe connectors on the Cobras.

Also, your own wiki link notes that the SN95 *is* a Fox (click the Ford SN-95 platform link on the right and see where it takes you.) So yes, the Terminator is a Fox-body. The first non-Fox Mustang after 79 is the 05-up S197. It's just like the X300 Jaguars are really modified XJ40 platforms - sure they have a different code, but it's still an XJ40 chassis.

Yep, wide tires... and a whole lot of weight. And poor weight distribution. And 400hp? Yep, that's why I said autocross and tight corner :p Oh, and it's also why I said fox-body (referring specifically to the 5.0 because that's the one that was mentioned in this thread first).

You said tight corner, yes. But there Miatas have to play the conservation of energy game where a Cobra can do slow-in-fast-out, depending on the exact corner. I won't comment on autocross as so much is variable on how the track is laid out - for example, the local SCCA asshats love laying out courses that ONLY a Miata or smaller can physically fit through (such fun things like a corner having a diameter smaller than my car's wheelbase, or a radius that just happens to be one foot narrower than my car.). Hardly a level playing field.

I will note that at the Streets Of Willow, stock NA and NB Miatas got beat regularly by stock Cobras in the tighter corners, if the Cobras are competently handled. Don't know about the NCs as I haven't looked in a while.

The point is that Miatas are great cars, but they aren't God cars, and there are cars that can beat them in corners. Their claim to fame is the same as the pre-fail MGB and all the other dear little British roadsters - fun cheap roadsters that handle very well.
 
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The Alfa will keep up with the Miata for about 30 seconds. Then it will either burst into flames or stop running for no apparent reason. :p
 
You said tight corner, yes. But there Miatas have to play the conservation of energy game where a Cobra can do slow-in-fast-out, depending on the exact corner.
Right, so the Miata will be quicker through the corner and yes, much slower in a straight line.


The point is that Miatas are great cars, but they aren't God cars, and there are cars that can beat them in corners.
There is no doubt about the fact that there are cars that will beat a Miata in a corner. It's just that the third generation Mustang (which is what was assumed when we started talking about the 5.0 fox-body) and the third generation Camaro are not such cars. They are heavy, have poor weight distribution, and poor suspension geometry.

And Miatas definitely are God cars. I mean like, oh my god, like totally!
:p
 
Bah, Miatas are too heavy. :p
 
Right, so the Miata will be quicker through the corner and yes, much slower in a straight line.

No, it might be faster (and not by much) from entrance to apex, but the Cobra will be much faster from apex to exit and will be faster overall because of that.

Besides, if I wanted to beat Miatas at their own game, I'd go get an E-Type and stomp all over them. Only a little more weight, longer wheelbase for better stability, and more than twice the horsepower. Not to mention, with a few bushing replacements, better handling and much better looks along with a much better soundtrack. :D
 
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No, it might be faster (and not by much) from entrance to apex, but the Cobra will be much faster from apex to exit and will be faster overall because of that.
We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.


Besides, if I wanted to beat Miatas at their own game, I'd go get an E-Type and stomp all over them. Only a little more weight, longer wheelbase for better stability, and more than twice the horsepower. Not to mention, with a few bushing replacements, much better handling and better looks. :D
Now that would be one hell of a matchup!
 
On a semi related note, Mustangs had a good run in the BTCC. Though that was at only well known race tracks and not empty parking lots with cones. :p
 
On a semi related note, Mustangs had a good run in the BTCC. Though that was at only well known race tracks and not empty parking lots with cones. :p

No doubts that autocross does improve car control skills, but I find it very hard to take autocross seriously as a barometer of a car's capabilities when your laptimes, or indeed your car's ability to fit on the course at all, is determined by where the jerks decide they want to put the cones that day. As far as I know there is yet to be a standardized course layout, so good luck with comparing results.

Now that would be one hell of a matchup!

Not really. I've seen it a handful of times and unless the operator sucks at driving the Jag wins every single time on a road course, even tight ones.

Put it to you this way. The E-Type used to routinely trounce the little British cars the Miata is derived from. The stock NA Miata isn't significantly faster than a Stag and it doesn't handle that much better than an Elan, and the 3.8L E-Type is still 2-plus seconds faster to sixty than the NA. The E-Type has the same perfect weight balance as a Miata, but a longer wheelbase for better stability (and the oh-so-annoying-to-LBC-and-Miata-owners-as-well-as-Paul-Newman characteristic tail-out corner entry), a better powerband (yay torque everywhere! yay twice the power!) while only having a little more weight and is, IMHO, actually easier to drive. Even Jeremy Clarkson can hustle one around a track easily and without spinning.

If it's E-Type vs NA/NB Miata, the E-Type still wins. Period. They were still winning SCCA races in the 70s and 80s long after they were out of production; a 4.2 beat Paul Newman and his factory backed BRE Datsun Z team in 1980 to take the SCCA C-Production national championship - a full five years after the next to last one rolled off the production line.
 
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AP1s (and to a lesser degree AP2s, as well) are known for being unforgiving and snap-oversteering at the limit.

Interesting... His biggest complaint was that it was hard to get it to go sideways in the first place. Though admittedly he was a shit drifter before and really started improving after he got the 240 and went to a couple of events.
 
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