I have had a bit of an internal struggle, but I just have to answer, otherwise this'll just keep me occupied all day. It'll be my last comment, this argument is plain ridiculous, even if you don't realize it. I probably didn't adress all points and created numerous new ones, but I just don't have the time to make this perfectly coherent. I wish I did.
Bad Bowtie; said:
Answer me this: If someone, so full of hate, devoted their whole life to killing the people of your country and then created a plan to follow through on that by forming a worldwide organization just to slaughter as many citizens of your country as possible, would you just want them to sit in the typical jail cell for the rest of their life? Or maybe you'd just go by German standards and think he was rehabilitated after a certain amount of years?
Others have said the same, and I will say it as well. Yes, absolutely and wholeheartedly would I have preferred him to go through the justice process, with all the humiliation, pain and suffering that goes along with it, especially in your country. There are some things that are far worse than death. But then again, your beliefs say that he goes to hell, so how could you understand this. Unless you don't believe in hell, but I'm just going to assume you follow the mainstream ideas. Given that you are a Chevy fan and patriot and some of your replies, I don't think this is far fetched. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Death is an easy and absolute answer, so is walking away from a conversation. To take a slice from our history, Hitler knew this as well, so he killed himself to not be captured by the Russians. They would have killed him in the end anyways, but who knows what they would have done beforehand.
Another thing you probably don't get, given your penchant to believe things are just created, is that there are no such things as random supervillains popping up around the globe, wanting to watch the world burn, more specifically your part of it. Every human is the culmination of his existence, of his experiences. People don't just believe something out of nowhere, it always has an origin, a reason. Terrorists see plenty of reasons, because you have done and still supply enough. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an uneducated, poor Afghan or Iraqi, who sees people dying for no discernable reason all the time. Your country went to war with a whole culture based on one attack. A tragedy, sure, but imagine that happening all the time. And no couch and internet to understand what is happening. Absolutely no wonder they start hating the West.
Another thing you don't seem to understand is reading things carefully. Nobody ever claims that all people can be rehabilitated, the same as some just can't be reasoned with. Some people need to be removed from society for good, but if you can do this without exterminating that existence, why wouldn't you. Maybe there is still a role for them to play, even if it is just giving interviews and helping people understand their actions. Imagine Osama behind bars, as a source for you to really understand the problem. Not just his porn collection, which was a big hit for your country as well.
Bad Bowtie; said:
An absolutely excellent example in differences is also a very recent one, the terrible fate that has befallen Japan. When everything went wrong there, people calmly stood in a line for hours on end for food, clothes, etc. while over here, there is a sizable chunk of the population that in the same situation would be out looting for hours on end. It's pathetic and disgusting, but that just goes to show difference in culture.
Ever heard of cultural relativism? It's fine if East Asian cultures number their houses by the order they were built in, but don't excuse looting with it just being your culture. Doesn't that sadden you, that you have a culture of looting, if no armed police are around? Sorry to say this, but what the fuck is that? Time for a rethink, maybe?
Bad Bowtie; said:
More to the point, capital punishment is something that will show the difference in culture as well. Personally, as a Christian (Catholic), I think capital punishment has it's place in our society. However, I can totally see why others would disagree. There are certain people that are just too much of a danger to society to be let out. Sometimes, rotting in prison just isn't enough. The way I see it, in most cases it should be like this: Kill once, 25 years at the least. Kill twice, you kiss your freedom goodbye forever. You either rot in your cell, or depending upon severity, your life = over. That's another thing, lethal injection is too expensive. Bullets, on the other hand, are very cheap.
So you are more of an old testament christan. That's cool. Religion is so maluable and undefined nowadays, I guess you can combine even the most contradicting believes without worry. To the point, you said it yourself, some people are just too dangerous to be set free. But I don't see that as a reason to end them, just to confine them. But that is more expensive, so bullets it is. Severity of "punishment" increases with the severity of crime is a given. Noone argues that. But punishment has its useful limits. You can't oversolve a problem, once the criminal is gone he/she is gone. Be that by locking them away, rehabilitating them, or is this case their struggle ceasing to exist. Or a combination.
Bad Bowtie; said:
Would you really want a serial rapist/killer walking the streets? Sociopaths and manipulative people can easily get past the "I swear I'm no longer a danger to society" test.
Here we have that oversimplification again. Don't be stupid. I know, because I have lived a bit longer than that, what 15 or 20 years can do to you. People always change, unless they are in the same environment. If you were in jail for that time, I think you would change a fair bit. I'm sure I would. Humans have survived because of that trait, reacting to their environment. Your test "idea" I won't even comment.
Bad Bowtie; said:
What that really comes down to is the mindset of your society as a whole. Germans and Europeans are very different from Americans. For political reasons (and the price of gas), I could not live in Europe. As we all know, there are people who feel the exact opposite, and couldn't live here. I can respect that, as they should my views.
The gas prices? Armchair-fucking-mentality. Anybody could live in any western culture without problems. Most of Asia as well. Maybe you don't like certain aspects of it, but other than ideological bullshit, we're basically the same. I could live in the States, but I like Europe because it's tightly knit. I like flying two hours and having the choice of London, Paris, Vienna, Berlin, Rome, Warsaw etc. Its actually the reason I went back to Germany. And on that point:
Bad Bowtie; said:
The differences you speak of from crossing the pond are rooted in the fact that you are not an American and did not experience what we did in the same fashion. It's a giant mindfuck to think someone despises your country so much that you want to kill everyone in it. I couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks about us celebrating the death of Osama, because 9/11 was not on their soil. If you live in the US and find issue with the celebration, that's a different story, since you are an American. I've wanted blood since the minute I saw the first plane hit the towers. I can forgive a lot, even murderers, but I cannot forgive someone like that. God bless the soldier(s) who put that shiny piece of metal through that piece of shit's dome and may they live the rest of their lives riding that high.
This one got me a bit emotional.
I lived in Canada for 6 years, starting August 2001. Ottawa 2 years, Halifax 4. I was very fortunate to be in a private boarding school in the middle of the diplomatic residence area (Ashbury College, if you want to look it up). I remember almost every minute of that September 11th. I remember how one Russian student came into our PE class, and told us a plane had flown into one of the WTC towers. We were like, yeah right. 30 mins later, things started getting serious. People were crying everywhere, watching screens in disbelief, trying to reach their parents on an overloaded cellphone network. I remember the catatonic girl who had lost her parents an hour ago. And I will never forget. There was no culture difference, EVERYONE was just... trying to hold together. I was as close as 99.9% of Americans to the disasters, and I felt their pain, every last bit of it. I also met my first great love on that day, so I also remember some positives.
What I also remember is the hate that started spewing out after Bush's adress to the nations, and how they started generalizing a whole culture right from the start. I remember a middle eastern student who was curb stomped shortly after, because of the way he looked. 3 weeks hospital for him. The school orchestra (which I was a part of) went to NY in February 2002 to play in Carnegie Hall, so unlike most US citizens I actually stood right by the big, gaping hole that was left. I still feel the little hole that picture left in me. Was interrupted by an offer for a $5 Rolex though. NY for you.
And in light of all that:
Bad Bowtie; said:
Osama deserved to die, and though it might sound sick to you, I had a smile on my face when I saw that Osama had been killed, as millions of other Americans did. It was one of those moments you will remember where you were forever. At least be man enough and declare war in the usual way rather than being a coward and targeting civilians while hiding in your cave. Osama was a piece of fuck not deserving of the same air that any good citizen of America, or for that matter the world, breathes. If he was to be brought in, I would have wanted him tortured to no end. I'm sorry our way of life disgusts you, but that does not mean you have the right to take thousands of lives because you disagree with us.
Osama deserved to be brought to justice. And I give you a smile, I give you feelings of relief or even happiness. That's all perfectly fine. After 10 years of fighting, conquest and searching, you finally got your prize, so good for you.
But dancing on the street? USA USA, as if this was some kind of sports event. You didn't win. But beneath all that, I know what group mentality is like, lies the core problem, which is signified by a picture:
Other than you supporting one and not the other, so your ethnocentric viewpoint, there is no difference. None. And neither is there a difference between people dancing in the streets yelling Allah Allah after terrorist attacks, which you condemn heavily, and what you did. None. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but everyone not taking part sure does.
What you are doing is exactly the same that causes your blood to boil when the other guys do it, perpetuating hatred. And it is just the same with the "an eye for an eye" philosophy, it just perpetuates a bad situation. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Gandhi
Final comments:
You know why America as a whole is doing not so well right now and your people want to go back to the past? It's not because the world changed, or that things are more difficult now than they were before. It's because you are not doing what is right anymore, but what is easy. That's what made the US great, doing things because they were difficult and would lead to greater things. Solving your debt crisis demands some tough choices, which you are unwilling or unable to make. Generalizing is easy, so all Muslims bad. Faith is easy. Immigrants are bad is easy. Celebrity gossip is easy. Getting fat is easy. Polling is easy. Saying "Majority rules" is easy. "Eye for an eye" is easy.
Upholding your values of justice and forgiveness is hard when your "enemy" doesn't follow them. Very hard. If someone was to kill a person I cared about in front of me, I don't assume to know what would happen. Maybe my anger and hate would win over me. But that would be a mighty personal failure, and I try my hardest not to fail myself. Serving justice to a murderer is hard. Allowing for the possibility of change and encouraging it I find easy, but I guess it can be hard. Caring for a person that doesn't care for you is hard. Being good is hard.
You may say that I'm just some elitist, pansy-assed socialist, because I don't yell "Fuck yeah!" everytime someone pulls out a gun. Or that I'm doomed and unworthy anyways, because I don't believe in ludicrous fairytails. I've had my fair share of fights and pain (emo. & phys.), feared for my life, fired numerous guns (Desert Eagle .50 AE hurts like a bitch), I had 10 years of religion classes and evangelical kindergarten before that. I've been to over 20 different countries, not just on the beach. 18 years of education. I've been through the process long enough, I've seen all the sides and I think I'm on the right track to be a good human being.