Clarkson's Patriotism and Anti-Americanism...

Does Clarkson dis-like us Americans I think not. He has made several trips over here and in one episode he was really enjoying his time in a tire shop ?This is the most fun I have ever had in a tire shop?. He unfavorable remarks about things American normally roll right off of me and I find them humorous. The one exception would be his remarks about New Orleans and how do we sleep at night knowing the condition of the city at that time. I will not take the time to dwell on that as this not the forum for it. I did notice that during the Big Stig?s showing in Florida (another case of American stereotyping) that they did not use an U.S. Flag to start the race as it would be totally unacceptable and disrespectful to do so. The norm on their track or location is to us the Union Jack to start the race with it being swung down to in fact touch the ground. In one episode James May actually casually cast the flag out of his way.
The running joke about American cars is there turning ability. This has never been a big deal to U.S. Car makers as U.S. roads are normally very straight and not general carved out of old cattle trails and chariot ruts. In places with a lot of curves recommended Speed Limits and Posted Speed Limits generally keep vehicles will with in there handling capabilities. That is way we can build muscle cars that are well in reach of the normal working class to afford. We even build useless muscle trucks such as the Ford F150 Lightning. In this town of thousands of 4WD F150s I have only seen one Lightning as they are pointless and ain?t getting you down to the fishing hole.
I think in general Clarkson mocks every nation in some form or other. He makes fun of the Germans let drives a German built car for his daily community and he loves the VW GTI. He always has something to say about the Italians yet in his words ?You cannot be a true motorhead without ever owning an Alfa Romeo?. Lastly he does like the Corvette ZR-1 if for any reason it is fun to drive and relatively cheap.
 
they did not use an U.S. Flag to start the race as it would be totally unacceptable and disrespectful to do so. The norm on their track or location is to us the Union Jack to start the race with it being swung down to in fact touch the ground. In one episode James May actually casually cast the flag out of his way.
I doubt this was a deliberate act of respect, more likely they didn't have a flag.

It does however sum up the difference nicely, burn an American flag and they all want to come and kill, burn a British flag and we'll laugh at you for going out and buying a flag with your own money only to set fire to it.

Americans guard their patriotism fiercely in ways which make them look insecure to the rest of the world.
 
Burn a British flag and we'll laugh at you for going out and buying a flag with your own money only to set fire to it.

Americans guard their patriotism fiercely in ways which make them look insecure to the rest of the world.

Wise, wise words...
Although...

Americans guard their patriotism fiercely in ways which show their insecurity to the rest of the world.

Fixed that one.
 
The US is a country that 1) came to its world primacy pretty recently and 2) hasn't really been knocked off its pedestal since then, local setbacks like Vietnam notwithstanding. For a country, it hasn't had the time or perspective to learn humility. Some older powers like France, China, and Russia are still as prickly as the US despite having had more time to know better. The (broad) sense of perspective that the British, Germans, and maybe the Dutch have is probably rare among nations.
 
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Opinions?

You cannot fault the man for loving his country. Maybe he thinks things from his country are best, maybe not. He is entitled to think that way, as he should. He is proud of where he lives and wants it to be the best. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I don't him bashing Americans or our cars. He is an entertainer, he will play things up to get a response, one way or another. He may honestly find plenty of faults and reasons why he doesn't like American cars or others, and that's because he has his own likes and dislikes, as we all do. We all know the show would be immensely less popular and no one would care what he has to say if he just gave factual information about a car. "This one has a 5L V8 and 335 tires while this one has a twin turbo V6 and AWD. Let's race them.....this car won. Next topic." That would be dreadful. We watch because we want to compare our opinion to his; we get on this very site to compare our opinion to others, it's what makes the world go 'round.

When he drove the Corvette ZR1 ...He absolutely loved it as a driving machine, and liked the fact that it's a cheap thrill. But still pointed out that the build quality is aweful ... Which it factually is.

[mandatorycorvettedefense]I beg to differ. I've been in a number of luxury cars, from all 3 big Germans as well as some offering from Lexus. My lasting thoughts were, "nice, but unnecessary." I've also been in a C6 or two, and I find it to be a nice place to be. Not everyone needs lots of luxury to be happy. I haven't gotten to trash around a C6 so my opinion might change, but I didn't find the seats as displeasing as everyone makes them out to be. I actually got to sit in a CTS-V2 just a few weeks ago, that is borderline not-necessary to me. Don't get me wrong, I want a car that is built well, but I don't need the best since my wants are apread around in other places. So factually, it isn't awful (to all of us, just to some). [/mandatorycorvettedefense]

It's also a tad sensitive sometimes..

I think you wrote "a tad" when you meant to write "ultra." :mrgreen:

One can discuss, if all his remarks and comments are tasteful or appropriate but one thing is absolutely clear: When it comes to it, he is the harshest critic of his own country, too. No need to tell him what's wrong with Britain today.

And that is what many, who bash or criticize him, ignore or simply blind out.

Great post. I cut most of it because this was the most on topic bit. I wholeheartedly agree.

On the topic of "Britain's lost glory," I see America going down that road as we speak. At one point, "Made in America" meant it was the best (at least in our minds :p), but now we are going down a path where others' can match are quality, or dare I say it, even beat it (soundly).

Most people have mis-interoperated the e-type ending. He wasn't being patriotic or saying that Britain makes the best stuff. He was saying that we like to think we do but we're in fact a bit crap ("as good as we THINK we are" with the big show of "patriotism", followed by the car failing to start). He was making fun of British engineering.

Exactly on point. And that is a key thing that people (mostly Americans) seem to miss, the fact that he can laugh at himself and his country.


I enjoyed both the ZR1 appearances on TopGear. My only complaint with the second showing, the proper review against the Audi R8, was that they tried to type-cast the car as an overpowered monster that is near impossible to drive in a straight line. It contradicted the earlier episode with the ZR1 quite a bit. They even type-cast the Audi R8 as the sensible, stable, and easy to drive supercar of the pair. But when the Stig did his power laps in both cars, it was the Audi R8 that was getting out of shape, while the ZR1 was looking very stable and controlled. But then Clarkson tried to explain that away as only a professional racing driver could handle a ZR1 like that, but apparently not the R8 for some unexplained reason. Alittle too much fake hollywood entertainment nonsense for my liking.

That's because it is. (see bold) AWD, and an engine that is more about finesse than brute force makes it that. In the ZR1, you have a 6.2L V8, which has a PD blower on top. That means torque early, often, and everywhere. The instant power makes it a handful and couple that with being RWD VERY, VERY hard to drive anywhere close to it's potential. Take magazine tests for example, how often does the ZR1 get beat by the GTR, or sometimes a couple of other cars? Most of those guys have very little skill, and knowing that the huge amount of power can and will overcome grip so quickly scares them into driving slower. Does that mean the car is worse, or performance in 2nd rate? No, it means you have to be on your game to get the best out of it. When true racing drivers take it out, it almost always will take the same GTR and most other offerings from the super/hypercar elite.

The ZR1 is just another American car that happens to be wearing a fancy suit, but underneath he's still got his wifebeater and Chevrolet boxers on, and scratches his butt when people aren't looking. It is exactly what Americans are looking for: one hell of a hoot. It has 638hp, and people are still looking for more. Why? To make it handle better? No, the majority of Americans aren't into that. What they are looking for is something to put a giant, stupid smile on their face.

Have you been in a car with an enormous amount of horsepower like that? My friend's old Cobra made ~675hp to the wheels on the spray, and even on a drag radial it was hard to keep pointed straight, even though some think it's quite easy. The ZR1 is the same way, only on street tires, it amplifies the problem. That the beauty of the ZR1 though, it has insane amounts of power, but can be as docile as the base vette or any other car in the Chevy lineup when driven normally. Jeremy didn't get to go all out with it for the Western roadtrip; sure he slid it around a few corners and clipped a few apexs, but he was still reserved because they were on the street. On the track, he is at home and knows how to attack it, and in a car like that, it can show a completely different face.

I think the British in general like to think we're quietly brilliant but fear we may be a bit crap. At least we have a sense of humour about it though and don't fly off the handle when someone insults us, in fact we enjoy it and join in. Jeremy does that very well. In the same way that we can mock our siblings but if other people do it we get feisty with them... or perhaps that's just me? Also I don't think making fun of somewhere means you hate it, quite the reverse.

Perfectly said. It's only alright to poke fun at a family if you are a part of it. I expect Brits (and others) to defend their country and think it's got some greatness to it, and would not fault someone for thinking as such.

Fixed that one.

No, he had it right the first time. Patriotism here is different than elsewhere, mostly because of how our country was born. We had to fight for our independence, and to top it off, we had to fight the best in the world. We had to defend it on more than one occasion once it was won as well. Our first few decades all add up to why it is indeed a fiercely guarded thing here. The way we do it, makes us look insecure because we are seen as less "civilized" than Europeans. Most here still believe we are the best in the world, which is a topic for another day, but right or wrong...that's how it is here.
 
The US is a country that 1) came to its world primacy pretty recently and 2) hasn't really been knocked off its pedestal since then, local setbacks like Vietnam notwithstanding. For a country, it hasn't had the time or perspective to learn humility. Some older powers like France, China, and Russia are still as prickly as the US despite having had more time to know better. The (broad) sense of perspective that the British, Germans, and maybe the Dutch have is probably rare among nations.

A+ post, though I would say the pedestal is getting wobbly...or maybe that others are very close to sharing it.
 
My lasting thoughts were, nice, but unnecessary. I don't need the best

First, on a side note, I'd like to thank you for your lengthy and as-best-as-possible exhaustive input. In fact, I'd like to thank everyone.
However I see responding to some of your statements as a better expression of my gratitude.

[About the first quote - Although this is completely off-topic - I'll be brief] Unnecessity, of course, is an extremely subjective judgement. On that basis, I struggle not to dismiss the aforesaid as an arguement in favour of the Corvette. To my relatively young mind, a car which offers what everybody wouldn't mind having is far better than one that offers less than what all might want. Philosophical? Maybe.


No, he had it right the first time. Patriotism here is different than elsewhere, mostly because of how our country was born. We had to fight for our independence, and to top it off, we had to fight the best in the world. We had to defend it on more than one occasion once it was won as well. Our first few decades all add up to why it is indeed a fiercely guarded thing here. The way we do it, makes us look insecure because we are seen as less "civilized" than Europeans. Most here still believe we are the best in the world, which is a topic for another day, but right or wrong...that's how it is here.

I would like the stress the primordiality of distinguishing the Definition of patriotism inside a given community, from its actual manifestations. The definition of patriotism is the same anywhere in the world... It's our actual interpretations of it, based on our understandings, that make one patriotism differ from another.
Though, I don't really see why you disagree with my slight fix.... You said you DID think America appears as insecure but didn't say if it actual was, or not.
It seems to me, both countries are not that different... Judging from MacGuffin's milestone post and yours. It just appears they're both basking in their long gone glory, rather than operating to change their reality. I do sympathize with that retro-pride. I do! But in no way should it be a criterion for gauging a country's current success, nor for evaluating its current status.
 
The US is a country that 1) came to its world primacy pretty recently and 2) hasn't really been knocked off its pedestal since then, local setbacks like Vietnam notwithstanding. For a country, it hasn't had the time or perspective to learn humility. Some older powers like France, China, and Russia are still as prickly as the US despite having had more time to know better. The (broad) sense of perspective that the British, Germans, and maybe the Dutch have is probably rare among nations.

Great post. I cut most of it because this was the most on topic bit. I wholeheartedly agree.

On the topic of "Britain's lost glory," I see America going down that road as we speak. At one point, "Made in America" meant it was the best (at least in our minds :p), but now we are going down a path where others' can match are quality, or dare I say it, even beat it (soundly).

It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. What the US population lack in my eyes, is cultural and mental exchange with the rest of the world.

Maybe a bit off topic but there is some serious internationalization of the youth going on here in Europe, which I find remarkable and very desirable. Yesterday I saw a documentary of the Dutch university of Maastricht. They teach in English there and the student body but also the teachers are a wild mix from all over Europe. I think what people in the USA lack most, is mental and cultural exchange with foreigners. Without that kind of exchange, it's very hard to reflect on yourself and see your own flaws.

I therefore deeply urge every American's to get out of the country and learn about the world. It's a necessity for the future really.
 
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Not to move this post away from its original idea (Clarkson and Patriotism), but I agree that the way that America suddenly rose to power probably gave us a bit of a big head. And no wonder! We were far from the most powerful nation on earth prior to WWII, but in less than 5 years we were the most powerful by far. This of course was due mostly to lucky geography, huge amounts of natural resources, and a tremendous industrial base. FIVE YEARS! How long did it take Britain, France or any of the other European powers to reach their peak? Decades? Centuries? And America was never truly an imperial power with colonies around the world.

But all nations diminish in time. And since the rise of technology makes the world actually (or seem to) advance faster, America is a country on the decline apparently. But the decline won't come quickly because those three things that made us great are (more or less) still in existence. So are we proud of ourselves? Sure. Are we insecure in our defense of our flag? Um, we don't think so. I guess our flag means more to us than, say, the Union Jack does to many Brits. To each his own. I'm sure a brief search would find something that Brits are 'insecure' about that we Americans think is silly, like that whole royal family thing. You Brits may think we really like all those royal weddings and such, but we really see it as just another episode of Jersey Shore. Just sayin'.

As for this topic's original idea, I think Clarkson is patriotic but he is hardly the Brit equivalent of the "Ugly American." I imagine his feelings aren't too far off from the mass of British opinion, though I have no data to back this up
 
First, on a side note, I'd like to thank you for your lengthy and as-best-as-possible exhaustive input. In fact, I'd like to thank everyone.
However I see responding to some of your statements as a better expression of my gratitude.

[About the first quote - Although this is completely off-topic - I'll be brief] Unnecessity, of course, is an extremely subjective judgement. On that basis, I struggle not to dismiss the aforesaid as an arguement in favour of the Corvette. To my relatively young mind, a car which offers what everybody wouldn't mind having is far better than one that offers less than what all might want. Philosophical? Maybe.




I would like the stress the primordiality of distinguishing the Definition of patriotism inside a given community, from its actual manifestations. The definition of patriotism is the same anywhere in the world... It's our actual interpretations of it, based on our understandings, that make one patriotism differ from another.
Though, I don't really see why you disagree with my slight fix.... You said you DID think America appears as insecure but didn't say if it actual was, or not.
It seems to me, both countries are not that different... Judging from MacGuffin's milestone post and yours. It just appears they're both basking in their long gone glory, rather than operating to change their reality. I do sympathize with that retro-pride. I do! But in no way should it be a criterion for gauging a country's current success, nor for evaluating its current status.

I don't believe everyone is insecure so I did not state as such. What comes off as insecurity is just that brash defensive "don't fuck with the USA" attitude. America's glory is not long gone. As with everything in America, it came fast and it is going just as fast. Of course we are very similar to our odd-speaking cousins.

I think what people in the USA lack most, is mental and cultural exchange with foreigners. Without that kind of exchange, it's very hard to reflect on yourself and see your own flaws.

I therefore deeply urge every American's to get out of the country and learn about the world. It's a necessity for the future really.

Agreed, but you work getting those plane tickets down first, then we'll come over. The fiance and I would like to go to Europe for our honeymoon (packing away pennies as we speak) but it is quite a bit of money, and we could just as easily blow that in Vegas. :lol: Besides, it would get super expensive for what I want to do (couple days in the UK, couple in France and Italy...a day, maybe 2 in Germany).
 
I therefore deeply urge every American's to get out of the country and learn about the world. It's a necessity for the future really.

Now, I'm a rarity because I'm an American who's actually lived in a foreign country (hint: it's where I developed my hatred of BMWs). And, yeah, it is a good idea. But it goes directly against the American ethos. We are a nation of immigrants. Until the advent of PC, the cultural line here was assimilation. You contribute what's good about your ethnicity to the general body politic, then assimilate yourself into it. Exposure to other cultures in situ is diametrically opposed to the American ideal. We expect everyone to contribute to a common culture but not keep themselves separate from it. It's why we have an unspoken but definite problem with countries like Canada and Belgium.

This is why a number of Americans have a negative attitude toward Jeremy, especially when he starts prattling on about the flaws of American cars. We perceive a disconnect between what he expects from a car and what we expect from one. The American car is a key component of the American culture, and the way it's built is part of it. We look at our cars in a completely different manner from Jeremy, and are generally confused as to why he's prattling on. We tend to write it off as him not able or willing to understand our culture, which we generally believe is a Best of Breed of the entire world. That's why we like to export it, to enlighten the world on why it's that Best of Breed. Those who do not wish to understand it or adjust their expectations in its terms are either clueless or actively hostile.

We are the Red, White, and Blue Borg. You will be assimilated.
 
We expect everyone to contribute to a common culture but not keep themselves separate from it. That's why we like to export it, to enlighten the world on why it's that Best of Breed. Those who do not wish to understand it or adjust their expectations in its terms are either clueless or actively hostile.

We are the Red, White, and Blue Borg. You will be assimilated.

All jokes aside, that is correct. Excellent post Spie.
 
I think you wrote "a tad" when you meant to write "ultra."

I was being tactful. After all, Americans can be a tad sensitive:mrgreen:


Interesting thread.

I guess our flag means more to us than, say, the Union Jack does to many Brits.

The Union Jack (or, strictly, the Union Flag unless it's on a ship) is made up from the flags of three of the four nations which make up the United Kingdom and is, therefore, a massive bone of contention in itself. Patriotism isn't exactly rife in Britain, but it you will find it in Scotland, Wales, Ulster and - to a much lesser extent - England. This is a country in the throes of a massive identity crisis, and very ill at ease with itself.
 
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That's because it is. (see bold) AWD, and an engine that is more about finesse than brute force makes it that. In the ZR1, you have a 6.2L V8, which has a PD blower on top. That means torque early, often, and everywhere. The instant power makes it a handful and couple that with being RWD VERY, VERY hard to drive anywhere close to it's potential. Take magazine tests for example, how often does the ZR1 get beat by the GTR, or sometimes a couple of other cars? Most of those guys have very little skill, and knowing that the huge amount of power can and will overcome grip so quickly scares them into driving slower. Does that mean the car is worse, or performance in 2nd rate? No, it means you have to be on your game to get the best out of it. When true racing drivers take it out, it almost always will take the same GTR and most other offerings from the super/hypercar elite.

Yeah, I understand all that, but like I said, it was the type-casting that bothered me. The whole segment felt like they decided before hand that the ZR1 would be impossible to handle and therefore needed to be sideways at all times. It looked like Clarkson put it in 2nd gear and buried the loud pedal into the carpet and never lifted off. At no point did it look like he made any attempt to drive it in a straight line. That's the part that bugged me, because I've heard a lot of good things about the ZR1's handling. Lots of grip and very controllable oversteer. Which the Stig demonstrated quite nicely. Clarkson has driven plenty of RWD cars with similar power, but never did he complain about losing rear traction half as much. With cars of that caliber, you really do have to pull your head out and use it.

On a more general note, it also bothers me that these tv shows always insist on turning off electronic aids. Sure, if they're good enough behind the wheel and the car isn't beyond their skill to drive, it's cool watching them turn all that stuff off and control the car completely themselves. But when they're faced with a car that they don't have enough skill to drive without electronic nannies, they still turn them off and talk shit about the car, blaming it for not being "good enough" for them to drive. If the car is too much for you, turn the electronic shit back on idiot, that's what it's there for, people like you. The ZR1 has an excellent set of electronic aids, from what I read, it makes the car much easier for mortals to drive fast without worrying about a fiery explosion followed by a quick painful death.
 
It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. What the US population lack in my eyes, is cultural and mental exchange with the rest of the world.

I therefore deeply urge every American's to get out of the country and learn about the world. It's a necessity for the future really.

Oh, stop! The US population has engaged in plenty of cultural and mental exchanges with the rest of the world. Look back less than 70 years to WWII for example. We learned about national socialism, exchanged gunfire with Germans and learned about their institutions like concentration camps and lebensunwertes Leben. I deeply urge all Germans, especially those under 40 years of age, to get out of the country and visit Auschwitz, Poland to learn about your recent past. It seems Germans have erased most of their recent history in Germany and one has to travel to Auschwitz to see a Nazi concentration camp the way it was.

I have been to England and Europe several times. In the '70s and '80s, I ran into Wehrmacht and SS veterans in bars in Munich and Vienna openly singing Nazi marching songs and throwing Nazi salutes. The real worry about the future was that the other patrons did not object.
 
Oh dear, the thread was going well until a wild Nazi rant appeared.
Attention Americans; you did not suffer from Naziism. I'm of Polish descent, 25% of my grandad's country's entire population was wiped out in front of him. That's suffering from Naziism.

I don't know what kind of funny bars you go to when you're in Europe mate, but every German I've been friends with carried some deep seated insecurity and guilt over their country's past. OT: I have a theory that's why Japanese and German porn is so fucked up. Some kind of national shame being translated into poop and vomit. I'm going to write a thesis on it.
 
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I wouldn't say JC is biased towards UK manufactures at all .In fact he has, in the past moaned about Rover, MG, Vauxhall, Morgan, Reliant, Bristol, Mini, Morris, Austin, Triumph and others I've probably forgotten about.
i'll probably believe you if he ever has a bad word to say about Aston Martin. (which he hasn't, they must be perfect!)
 
Oh dear, the thread was going well until a wild Nazi rant appeared.
Attention Americans; you did not suffer from Naziism. I'm of Polish descent, 25% of my grandad's country's entire population was wiped out in front of him. That's suffering from Naziism.

I don't know what kind of funny bars you go to when you're in Europe mate, but every German I've been friends with carried some deep seated insecurity and guilt over their country's past. OT: I have a theory that's why Japanese and German porn is so fucked up. Some kind of national shame being translated into poop and vomit. I'm going to write a thesis on it.

I'm of 100% Polish descent and I am offended when some snot-nosed German kid tells me I need to travel to learn about culture and how the rest of the world works when the Germans have actively been trying to erase their recent "culture" and history. Plus, I don't need to go back two generations to hear first hand stories what happened. My parents lived it.

MacGuffin writes it's very hard for American to see their flaws. I suggest no American flaw rises to the level of whatever German flaw allowed the people of Germany to elect Hitler and embrace genocide and world war.

Those "funny" bars were bars frequented by locals in upscale Munich and Vienna, not tourist bars.
 
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You may not realize it, Beech, but with your rants you have actually proved me right. Just telling you this in case you get banned soon.
 
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