Random Thoughts (Political Edition)

Straw poll - who was the best US president in 1900 - date?

I liked JFK (I forgive him his sausage adventures - not an attractive trait though) and FDR, but FDR was not good for Ukania actually, still he was very good for the US IMHO.
FDR for social security, for WW2 and for starting a practical approach towards a welfare state, Truman for being a lot smarter and a lot more savvy than anyone tought in his time. If the question was "greatest president", I think it would be hard to beat Taft, after hall, he weighed 300+ pounds. It's said he once rose on the tram to give his seat to two young ladies.

If the question was who was the best advertiser for Pepsi Cola, I'd have to say Ike.
 
It is a difficult question. T Roosevelt for, in layman's terms, getting shit done and pushing the US onto the international stage. Wilson, in my opinion, for being the seemingly sole voice of reason following WW1 with his 14 points that very well could have, if adopted, prevented WW2, as well his efforts with the Progressive Movement. FDR for the New Deal, Social Security, and handling of WW2. JFK's charisma was unmatched, and probably ranks in the top 3 most popular presidents ever during their terms (along with FDR and Washington), and we can thank him for getting the support for, in my opinion, the greatest ever human achievement (Apollo). Honorable mentions go to Ike and Truman.

Presidents following JFK get a bit murky though, possibly because history remembers more of their deeds in detail. Each have a reason to be applauded, yet also a reason to be downgraded. It seems most of the presidents between TR and JFK are looked at favorably (or at least not negatively) and then everybody after has serious character flaws.

In terms of later presidents, George Bush Sr (who I don't think is talked about enough) and Clinton would rank the highest to me.
 
I wouldn't really say that Taft or Hoover really gets very favorably judged. Taft was a damp squib after TR, and Hoover did nothing. Nothing what-so-ever.
 
I wouldn't really say that Taft or Hoover really gets very favorably judged. Taft was a damp squib after TR, and Hoover did nothing. Nothing what-so-ever.

That's why I added the parentheses. They aren't touted as great presidents, but history doesn't say anything bad about them either.
 
Hoover got SLUMS named after him. That's quite bad.
 
Hoover got SLUMS named after him. That's quite bad.

Yes, but modern history concedes that Hoover really cannot be blamed for the way things turned out, he just got stuck with the blame as he was president at the time. Kind of similar to recent events...

And Hoover, at the very least, got a dam and the largest construction project of the time named after him.
 
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Thanks guys - one or two names there I had not thought of - Wilson was good - no Hitler with his plan me thinks. And Truman was really rather good too - and a surprise. IKE was no where near as good, still built, up the US armed forces just in time.

Anyone got any other contenders? I think your guys have been, on the whole, not too bad, well until recently.
 
Yes, but modern history concedes that Hoover really cannot be blamed for the way things turned out, he just got stuck with the blame as he was president at the time. Kind of similar to recent events...

And Hoover, at the very least, got a dam and the largest construction project of the time named after him.
Fuck, forgot about the dam. I withdraw my last remark.

Thanks guys - one or two names there I had not thought of - Wilson was good - no Hitler with his plan me thinks. And Truman was really rather good too - and a surprise. IKE was no where near as good, still built, up the US armed forces just in time.

Anyone got any other contenders? I think your guys have been, on the whole, not too bad, well until recently.
Bit like you guys, really. You've had some really good (or at least noteworthy) PMs this century.

Lloyd George - A bloody force of nature. Temperamentful, autoritarian, bent as a banana and a nasty character who humped anything in a skirt. Still, he did manage to get things done.

Ramsay MacDonald - First Labour PM, hated by the Labour party.

Stanley Baldwin - Best known for not being known to anyone. Had the good grace to resign before most people realized he'd lain the seeds for Germany's unlimited rearmament. So he can't have been that stupid.

Winston Spencer Churchill - I won't bother.

Clement Attlee - You owe him a lot. Such as a scolding and hot temper. But also quite a bit of gratitude.

Harold MacMillan - Probably the last Tory PM to really base himself on proven Keynes instead of experimental economic science. I don't know why I'm ignoring sir Alec Douglas-Home, but never mind. Quite unflappable. Oh, and he once got a steam engine named after him. Awsome!

Maggie - Almost killed the British economy. Was lucky. Could have lost the Falklands War. Lucky. Could have lost the battle with another contemporary revolutionary, Scargill. Lucky. Might have been killed by the IRA. Quite lucky, and hard working. Might had won a fourth term. Unlucky. Poll tax was a disaster, and to some extent, she laid the seeds for a lot of the problems Britain is facing today. Still, she is a great lady.

I'd like to add Joe Chamberlain too, even if he was never PM. But he managed to wreck both the Tory party and the Liberal party. That's an achievement of sorts.
 
What was the problem congress had with Wilson and the 14 point post- WW1 plan?
 
What was the problem congress had with Wilson and the 14 point post- WW1 plan?

The US was largely isolationist at the time, so though the US technically supported the 14 Points, it was unwilling to take the lead on enacting them. Thus, with the European Allies out for German (metaphorical) blood, they were not adopted. That's the short of it.
 
Maggie - Almost killed the British economy. Was lucky. Could have lost the Falklands War. Lucky. Could have lost the battle with another contemporary revolutionary, Scargill. Lucky. Might have been killed by the IRA. Quite lucky, and hard working. Might had won a fourth term. Unlucky. Poll tax was a disaster, and to some extent, she laid the seeds for a lot of the problems Britain is facing today. Still, she is a great lady.
I like how you list all of the things Thatcher is reviled for, and then go on to say "she is a great lady" without any justification. :p
 
The US was largely isolationist at the time, so though the US technically supported the 14 Points, it was unwilling to take the lead on enacting them. Thus, with the European Allies out for German (metaphorical) blood, they were not adopted. That's the short of it.

It is amazing when you compare the Treaty of Versailles to the Congress of Vienna (which settled the French Revolutionary Wars, the Napoleonic Wars, and the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire). France lost essential nothing even though it instigated wars which killed millions. The things nobles can do when they are not beholden to the people of their lands.....
 
I like how you list all of the things Thatcher is reviled for, and then go on to say "she is a great lady" without any justification. :p
There are serious disagreements between me and the Lady. And I despise a lot of her values as old fashioned, out of date and without use in a modern world. But there is no doubt Lady Thatcher was able to do things that no one before her would be able to do. As Andrew Marr puts it, when MacMillan, Wilson, Attlee and even Churchill would have performed a u-turn, she was unrepentant.

Let's be clear about this. She almost wrecked the British economy, the British economy almost went in the paper basket. But it was saved by offshore petroleum. And that, along with the Falklands, secured her another term. Hadn't that happened, it might had gone a very different way.

I have to say that I'd put Wilson in there if In Place of Strife had been made into a law. Then we could have done without Lady Thatcher. While her reforms were needed, I really do not think they needed to happen with the speed they happened, a speed which didn't really add much to your society but made the transition impossible for millions of people, not all the reforms were strictly needed either, but Lady Thatcher created an environment where there was her way or the highway, and as a result, a lot of really stupid, crazy stuff got mangled together with more reasonable and useful stuff.

I think Britain suffered as a result. And all because In Place of Strife was just a white paper. Fucking hell. It's even worse than when that idiot Nixon told Ike not to meet Castro because he was a "commie", and Castro had to turn to Chrutchev instead of the obvious choice; the United States of America.
 
wilson was the closest thing to a dictator the US had. youre insane if you think he was a good president... the one that gave us the 16 and 17th amendments, the fed, imprisoned people who came out against our involvement in WW1, among others..
 
FDR for social security, for WW2 and for starting a practical approach towards a welfare state, Truman for being a lot smarter and a lot more savvy than anyone tought in his time. If the question was "greatest president", I think it would be hard to beat Taft, after hall, he weighed 300+ pounds. It's said he once rose on the tram to give his seat to two young ladies.

If the question was who was the best advertiser for Pepsi Cola, I'd have to say Ike.
FDR was horrible. SS needs to go away, responsibly, but it needs to go away. the new deal prolonged the depression. price controls, internments, etc.. yea.. great pres. he was a hell of a commander in chief, but thats about it. Truman brought us that idiotic "measured response" sort of warfare and if you want to go to such a place.. the issues that a modern Israel have brought us.
 
You say Wilson was close to a dictator, and you use the 17th amendment as an example? First of all, Presidents don't make amendments. It takes Congress and state legislatures to pass an amendment. Second, that 17th amendment provided for direct election of Senators, when previously state legislatures elected them. I fail to see how that can make anyone a dictator. Lastly, the movements for these amendments began years before Wilson was president. The 16th amendment was ratified before Wilson was inaugurated, and the 17th was ratified just over a month after his inauguration. Wilson was not responsible for these amendments. I will give you credit on the Espionage and Sedition Acts.

About FDR, there are two things you can plausibly bash him for. Obviously internment camps, which no one can possibly defend. The second was his attempt to change the number of justices in the SC so he could stack the court in his favor. About the New Deal, the economy was on the up until Republicans were able to get some of their way, then the declining unemployment rate rose again. Social Security is what keeps most retirees from falling into poverty, so no it does not need to go.

And your critique of Truman certainly needs more explanation.
 
You say Wilson was close to a dictator, and you use the 17th amendment as an example? First of all, Presidents don't make amendments. It takes Congress and state legislatures to pass an amendment. Second, that 17th amendment provided for direct election of Senators, when previously state legislatures elected them. I fail to see how that can make anyone a dictator. Lastly, the movements for these amendments began years before Wilson was president. The 16th amendment was ratified before Wilson was inaugurated, and the 17th was ratified just over a month after his inauguration. Wilson was not responsible for these amendments. I will give you credit on the Espionage and Sedition Acts.
presidents can heavily influence what gets introduced and passed. ill concede the amendments =/= dictator. however, those 2 amendments were bad as the 17th took away the states check on the federal govt. individual (house of representatives), state (senate), country (president).. each one was to be represented in washington.
majority of the reason he is the closest thing to a dictator weve had is how he treated the people during WW1 and some of the laws he passed including the espionage law. t

About FDR, there are two things you can plausibly bash him for. Obviously internment camps, which no one can possibly defend. The second was his attempt to change the number of justices in the SC so he could stack the court in his favor. About the New Deal, the economy was on the up until Republicans were able to get some of their way, then the declining unemployment rate rose again. Social Security is what keeps most retirees from falling into poverty, so no it does not need to go.
well, no. Coolidge, a Republican, cut govt spending 50%, heavily cut taxes, and presided over the lowest unemployment in the countrys history basically reversing a depression. THEN his successor, hoover, screwed it all up. FDR made it worse. in fact, FDR screwed us up about as much as woodrow. people say his lack of regulation is how we got the depression but fail to see how govt spending effectively made it worse. FDR's own Sec Treasury said the spending wasnt working. Keynesian economics doesnt work... most recent example being our economy right now.

now for SS. in the 1930s, you had 10? people paying in for every one recipient. now? well, now its 3-4 for every one recipient and in a couple years 2 for every one recipient. great ponze scheme that will cannibalize more and more of the federal budget. its not the govts responsibility or power to pay for someones retirement. sure, youll call me heartless, insensitive, or something else but reality is, its not my or my employers responsibility to pay for others. especially when its going to become such a strain on the rest of the country financially.


And your critique of Truman certainly needs more explanation.
because he was the wartime president who dropped the atomic bomb, he started this whole modern idea of a measured response (the thought of "do i really want this again?"). look at the Korean war. the idea was to simply kick out the Norks. he should have used the time to unify the country and keep china out. MacArthur's ego screwed the pooch in more ways than one there and got china into the war. had we kept china out, we probably wouldnt have the current issues with the north. to be fair to Truman, though, Ike continued the same basic strategy. the idea of reforming war is a bad one. it isnt a good thing and should not be made "humane" as it simply isnt. you make it as brutal as possible and only fight if you are willing to go all in.

random fact, did you know Goebbels actually learned his propaganda skills from people that worked for pres wilson?
 
wilson was the closest thing to a dictator the US had. youre insane if you think he was a good president... the one that gave us the 16 and 17th amendments, the fed, imprisoned people who came out against our involvement in WW1, among others..
Yeah, Wilson was autoritarian. So was Lincoln. It was war, and no internet. No cable television. You mention WW1, but I'd like to point out that the US was just as bad after WW1. The Red Scare was a ridiculous thing, and it punished thousands of Americans for the opinions. Funny you didn't mention that.

FDR was horrible. SS needs to go away, responsibly, but it needs to go away. the new deal prolonged the depression. price controls, internments, etc.. yea.. great pres. he was a hell of a commander in chief, but thats about it. Truman brought us that idiotic "measured response" sort of warfare and if you want to go to such a place.. the issues that a modern Israel have brought us.
Before Social Security, people died from starvation in the US when they got old. Not just isolated cases, people died from it. All the time. That is less of an issue today, thanks to, among other things, social security. It's not perfect, by no means. But you won't get anything done with it anyway, it's the real third rail of American domestic politics. It has never been proved he prolonged the depression either, some will have the exact oposite opinion. I for one. I won't argue on internment. He was probably the greatest president you've had, perhaps beat by Washington. And Washington was a real autoritarian as well, for those who forget.

Truman basically made the framework for how the US would meet communist agression during the Cold War. His policies are, in fact, tried and tested. He was a very unpopular president, but I don't care about that. He got things done, and he didn't even want the job. He had the guts to use nukes when he had to, but had the restraint not to start WWIII in Korea when MacArthur wanted to nuke the Chinese. He was good.

About FDR, there are two things you can plausibly bash him for. Obviously internment camps, which no one can possibly defend. The second was his attempt to change the number of justices in the SC so he could stack the court in his favor. About the New Deal, the economy was on the up until Republicans were able to get some of their way, then the declining unemployment rate rose again. Social Security is what keeps most retirees from falling into poverty, so no it does not need to go.
Well, it's a reason for it. FDR had terrible problems getting things done because of the Supreme Court. But that's a discussion for another time.

random fact, did you know Goebbels actually learned his propaganda skills from people that worked for pres wilson?
Then Wilson had some great PR people. Cause Goebbels was great with spin. I hate his guts and the guts of the Nazi Government. But man, he knew how to communicate.

I think your attempt to paint with guilt by association is quite silly.

Did you know George W. Bush has had business contacts with the bin Ladens? That the US has supported the Saud government for donkey years? And that the Saud government, or fractions within it, finance most of the terrorisme in the world today? Hmm, more random facts? What about this? Castro was ready for trade agreements and a Western European style of government (sort of, it IS Latin America after all) in 59? That he want to Washington DC to map it out? It made sense for Cuba. Cuba makes a lot of sugar. Some miles north of Cuba, there's a nation that uses a lot of sugar. A nation that needed more of it back then. But what happened? That idiot Nixon decided he was a commie (not accurate in 59), and told Ike not to meet him. With the door to the US closed, Castro went to the Soviet Union. Great success. Bloody idiots..

Thing is, it's not about the snippets. It's about the greater picture. That Goebbels had things to learn from Wilson don't suprise me, just as it doesn't suprise me that we might have something to learn about making the quality of our health care even better from you. You don't cover everybody. But those that don't have a problem with getting procedures do get quality health care. There are things we can learn from that. There are things you can learn from us to on health care.

So let's stop guilt by association, okay?
 
 
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