How 'gay rights' is being sold to America

zenkidori said:
you must not read the bible. There is no place in God's kingdom for the hateful.
Leviticus 19:17 said:
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Did I outright say I hated someone?
 
BerserkerCatSplat said:
What mistakes?

Well, did Canada always allow gay marriage? No, they didn't. So by allowing it, you are correcting your mistakes...ie. when you didn't allow it in the past.
 
cvg said:
BerserkerCatSplat said:
What mistakes?

Well, did Canada always allow gay marriage? No, they didn't. So by allowing it, you are correcting your mistakes...ie. when you didn't allow it in the past.

So you admit that disallowing gays to marry is a mistake, then.
 
cvg said:
Did I outright say I hated someone?
You obviously harbor hatred and prejudice towards gays and turn a blind eye to the sins of others(and possibly yourself), you advocate against them and thus you are immorral.

If you don't hate gays or the idea of being gay then what argument do you have? You havn't presented another argument other than it's against your beliefs so it should be outlawed. You can't argue against one immorrality if you are guilty of 10 other kinds yourself. You are not free of sin.
 
I think what you fail to realize is that gay marriage was never illegal in Canada, as there was never a law against it. Places were marrying gay people before the law was put in place. The change was made as a mere formality, as a sort of statement of our position towards gay rights.

It's not atonement, it's logical progression.

As far as Native Americns go, I'm left wondering if you're aware of how big of a drain they are on our welfare system, even after the billions of dollars we pay them in reperations for wrongdoings done centuries ago. How can you blame us for what the British and French did when conquering the Americas? the United States is no different in that regard.
 
Again another diversionary tactic.

Jesus didn't make laws, and he didn't live in a society that had a separation of church and state. Gays would not be married under they eyes of the lord, but as equals in a society of many gods and many religions, they cannot be denied such. Futhermore you nor anyone else alive today is in the position to cast judgement as was Jesus Christ, thus you cannot make a move against your fellow man, Jesus taught tolerance, love and bortherhood, not division and hatred. Living in societies as brothers, leaving judgement up to god. Christ has laid the foundation for those who wish to enter heaven, they cannot be forced one way or another. Outlawing gay marriage does nothing to change the fact that there are gays living in this society alongside you, it just allows you to sideline them and justify your hatred.

In a society of many religions and many people of many faiths, you as a supposed Christian must remember your own sins before those of your fellow man, and if you are filled with hatred for your fellow man you will not see the gates of heaven.
If you don't hate gays or the idea of being gay then what argument do you have? You havn't presented another argument other than it's against your beliefs so it should be outlawed. You can't argue against one immorrality if you are guilty of 10 other kinds yourself. You are not free of sin.
 
You know what? I'm done arguing. I need to finish studying for my finals and I have better things to do then try to convince anyone of my beliefs.
 
No wonder he can?t discuss it, he is trying to push his beliefs on us. How do you explain that that is not the right way to go ? It's like making everyone in the world believe in the same god as you, otherwise they are wrong.


:shock:
 
Please don't think my views represent the LDS Church, because not all of them do.
 
carsinamerica said:
Here goes Z Draci again. WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY? I'm a born American citizen. I believe in American values, I cherish the American dream, even with the current moron-in-chief. I believe that America can be make better through political activism and responsible social policy. Maybe it would be easier to move away, Z Draci, not that everyone can afford that...(ever read about the cost of living in Europe?), but that's not the point. I shouldn't HAVE to move to another country just to gain equal rights as a citizen. I'm a member of ONE of the great Western democracies. How about YOU move to someplace where everyone agrees with you? Although, iven the tone of some of your posts, I'm thinking that place would be a deserted Arctic island.... Seriously, the only thing dumber than that idea is: "if they don't want to be treated like crap, all them blacks should move back to Africa." [redneck emphasis added].

I've already said that the reasons I want to get married are manifold, but as others have noted, prove that ALL straight people are getting married *only* for love. Of course they aren't. And, as I have said OVER AND OVER, it is not the FINANCIAL, but the LEGAL benefits that are most important. Power of attorney, visitation rights, all of these things are guaranteed by marriage. Whether the final arrangement is marriage or civil unions, that should be guaranteed for homosexual couples, as well. Now, tell me a rational reason why my partner and I shouldn't have the same *legal* rights as straight people. And, by the by, the question on the table isn't whether or not marriage should include tax benefits or not. Clearly, you're opposed to all marriage, which is fine. Good for you, albeit perhaps lonely. The question we're fighting about is simply this, when all is said and done: linguistic perturbations aside, should homosexual couples be treated the same as heterosexual couples? Although I've discussed motives for marriage in this and previous posts, it is in fact immaterial. It is simply a question of whether equal access is good or bad. Don't try to frame the argument around a cynical twisting of marriage.

And as for you, cvg, of all the arguments and quotes to throw around, you pick the Mormons? LOL. Let's not even go into the historical Mormon definition of marriage (still practiced by many conservative sects, I've noticed). In case you haven't been reading, some of the fiercest opponents of gay marriage are against it precisely because it could lead to legal polygamy. (I've already said that I'm not ready to debate legal polygamy on its merits. My point is just that the Mormon construct of marriage is even less mainstream than gay marriage.)

Thanks for the invite to Canada, BerserkerCatSplat! I may take you up on it if the Z Draci's and justins of America rule the roost. And, just think, if I did, I could buy one of the exciting cars in Canada not available in the USA...the Pontiac Wave!!!! Yay! Or not.

You are still not getting my point!
I did not say that all gay people should get the hell out of America. Don't bring me down to such low level. It's insulting. Let me repeat what I said. If the only thing a gay couple wants is to get married with no regard for love and happiness, then they might as well move out of the US and do it elsewhere. Of course, as you mentioned gay couples do not want to get married for the sole purpose of getting married.

Given my view of marriage (along with the MAJORITY of this country) that it does not guarantee any kind of happiness or security, I do not buy the gay community's argument to support gay marriage. I think their intent are both selfish and materialistic. And this does not only go for gay couples, I can speak for any couple in general. If they are going to marry for the wrong reasons, they should not marry at all. PERIOD. I am not trying to make this into a gay v. straight debate. Just look at our divorce rates. It's absolutely appalling that any couple can make marriage vows then immediately cancel them. It just shows how immature people are in out society. Most are incapable of finding a good partner. Am I talking nonsense or am I misunderstanding the numbers that indicate that this is true? Gay couples are only asking for more problems by wanting to get married. Have you even heard about how devastating a failed marriage can be? It literally ruins several people's lives! And gay couple only want to get married for symbolic reasons or for getting perks from the law? THAT is very naive thinking. They should feel lucky for not being able to get married!

We're all agreed that every human being has the right to practice his freedom so long as it does not harm society. Everybody on this board believes in this general idea. Please don't insult each other on here at this low of a level.
 
:lol:

http://img205.imageshack.**/img205/8689/mperrin1pd.jpg

Relax. This was a nice, meaningful, secular debate on the legality of the issue. You're acting like the Holy Ghost hopped on you or something.

Look, if you are proud of living in a theocracy, that's lovely. You are no different than the Taliban. Gay rights a joke? You need to understand that your religion isn't the only one out there, period. If you want to get all childish about things, the Hindu religion claims that the world is billions of years old, the concept of time is vaste for them. I can't believe you don't see the faults in trying to mix religion with government. You actually mock people for wanting a secular country? Do you think you're living in the Crusades? Secularism is the greatest thing in the world. Religion is fine but it shouldn't be out in public. Hell, your country is supposed to be the shining beacon of secularism. You've just been told the founding fathers were Christ loving church men. Quite the opposite. Grow up a bit, leave this little shell of yours and realise that there are people out there that don't believe in what you believe. You can preach that crap all you want, your right, but when you start imposing that bullshit on others, that's when it gets fucked up.
 
Sometimes you guys bring the crazy out of me...I can't explain it. Just put me down like Tookie.
 
[quote="Z Draci]
You are still not getting my point!
I did not say that all gay people should get the hell out of America. Don't bring me down to such low level. It's insulting. Let me repeat what I said. If the only thing a gay couple wants is to get married with no regard for love and happiness, then they might as well move out of the US and do it elsewhere. Of course, as you mentioned gay couples do not want to get married for the sole purpose of getting married.[/quote]

Forgive me. You didn't say that gay people should get out of America. You only said they should leave America if they want equal rights and equal access. I stand corrected.

[quote="Z Draci]Am I talking nonsense or am I misunderstanding the numbers that indicate that this is true? [/quote]

Yes, and yes, would be my vote.

[quote="Z Draci]Gay couples are only asking for more problems by wanting to get married. Have you even heard about how devastating a failed marriage can be? It literally ruins several people's lives! And gay couple only want to get married for symbolic reasons or for getting perks from the law? THAT is very naive thinking. They should feel lucky for not being able to get married![/quote]

Okay, I think we all get that you have some major issues with marriage. Essentially, though, it comes down to this: you want to stand in judgement of all the motives of all gay people who wish to marry. Now THAT's naive. It's a free country, Z Draci. Part of a free country is that everyone is allowed to run the risk of screwing up their lives. ~50% of marriages may end in divorce, but ~50% don't. Moreover, many states have laws that heavily favor married couples. So, if I wanted to adopt kids, it would help to be married.

I don't believe that anyone here would suggest that marriage alone can guarantee happiness, Z Draci. But you CAN marry in pursuit of happiness. Is it too easy to get into and out of marriage? Perhaps. And we can all agree that divorces can have high social costs.

The problem with your position, though, is that you're saying that one group can have these rights, and others shouldn't, because you assume that the second group's motives are impure. Yet, you acknowledge that the motives of the first group are also impure. So, either no-one should be allowed to marry, or we all (consenting adults only) should be able to, or you, Z Draci, should be examining each marriage proposal to determine who is fit to marry and who is not. AND, you've already established that you wouldn't mind losing the right to marry. Which is surely such a minority position as to be labeled nutty. We all understand your position, we just think it's the most untenable argument. Even cvg at least has a logical argument, twisted though it may be. Your argument has no logic at all. We get it: you don't like marriage. So don't get married. Don't tell me that I can't get married because you think "the gays" have impure motives. MY motives for wanting to get married are complex, but are my own. And as long as straight people have a right to marry, so should I. Just as non-whites should be allowed to marry, and be allowed to marry whites as well, if they choose.
 
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