The 2020 elections, news, and discussions

It's as though you want for it to become a full-scale civil conflict just to reach some arbitrary validation goal. But no, you have a very small pocket of truly insane conservatives, and another similar one of libertarians, and then a lot of people who will be angry for a bit and then go "well..." before going back to their lives.
 
I don't it's validation, more so that it's not something that is just theoretical thinking. No, It's civil war across the country, but there was some idiots who are protesting in worrying ways. Why should you feel the need to be armed?
 
 
It's as though you want for it to become a full-scale civil conflict just to reach some arbitrary validation goal. But no, you have a very small pocket of truly insane conservatives, and another similar one of libertarians, and then a lot of people who will be angry for a bit and then go "well..." before going back to their lives.
I absolutely don't want that, but there are people who do and we can't ignore that they exist.
 
So whats happening here is @Dr_Grip pointed out that while in this thread I an saying that the risk of mass civil unrest is low that some three weeks ago I had predicted "vaccine violence". I stand by that prediction. Just as there had been "mask violence" I believe there will be violent acts in regards to the continued fight to control the virus.

@Blind_Io brings up the same incidences that I had said shows that the support for a civil war isn't really there.

Are we forgetting that an armed militia stormed and took over a US statehouse? Or that another group was foiled in kidnapping a state governor? Or the people that loaded up a Hummer with guns and headed out across state lines to attack a vote counting facility, only to be arrested just before the attack was to take place...

Starting with the final group of people with the Hummer... they were turned in! That means an American who probably agrees with them on a great number of things came to their senses and said "I better call the authorities". That gives me faith that Americans don't want a civil war for Trump.

The second group was made up of the first group. That is to say that of the extremist who stormed the capital not all of them were extreme enough to transmute to kidnaping or murder. This was predicated on the response to Covid. Though I don't discount that Trump threw gas on that fire to create the environment where such a treasonous criminal act could be formed.

@gaasc is correct these are small pockets of insanity. Though I don't think anyone is looking for validation rather acknowledgment as @93Flareside said it's not "just theoretical thinking". It is a threat to be taken seriously and that Trump has complicated the lives of Americans.

The issues of Covid violence and Trump political violence are connected because Trump connected them for the insane. Trump poured gasoline on the Covid issue. We are going to see as Utah moves to have a mask mandate (BTW check out the comments) and more Republican states to follow what Trump will do. We know he has no norm he is bound to and he will add to the deviant thinking of his followers.

Do I think that there will be a civil war? NO. Do I think we will see Trump supporters lashing out over the election, mask, the vaccine... sure.
 
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We can talk more about the Utah mask mandate in the COVID thread - but Herbert's handling of COVID in Utah reeks of partisan politics. He postponed doing anything until after the GOP primary to secure his Lieutenant's bid for governor (Herbert is retiring after this term). He again postponed any action until after the general election despite Utah being warned it was a hotspot for over a month. It wasn't until the U of U hospital ICU was 99% full and the other major hospitals in the area were pushing 80% ICU capacity that he even addressed the issue. I don't believe any of those numbers were taken into consideration, only the timing of the announcement occurring just days after the election to avoid hurting the optics of the GOP. Also, Herbert's order directs people to avoid seeing their families - but doesn't close bars or restaurants, and allows major sporting events to continue. He actually encouraged people to dine out - his track record with COVID has consistently placed short term economic gain over long term population and economic health.

As for the issue of civil war, I don' think there will be, but we have seen what a few nutjobs can do - and not just in the US. Every recent act of terrorism in the US has been home grown white supremacists and a startling number of them expressed their intent to start a race war or civil war. The FBI has repeatedly warned that white supremacists are the single biggest terror threat to the US, and these groups have been both emboldened by Trump and believe the lies that the election was stolen. Trump is going to continue to incite violence, and I don't believe that it will stop at January 20th.

Just after the election the Proud Boys and Trump Supporters gathered on the capitol steps and started calling people "Antifa" and trying to start fights. Oregon had a similar situation, but there it turned violent with the Neo Nazis using pepper spray and attacking people.

Again, I don't think there will be a civil war, nor do I want one; but we cannot ignore how much damage can be done by these isolated idiots and nutjobs of they decide to.
 
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We can talk more about the Utah mask mandate in the COVID thread

Lets not politicise that thread, Covid is a world issue that doesn't need to be dominated with more US politics. Rather we should move it that to Random Thoughts (Political Edition)

Though in regards to Covid and the 2020 Election...

Did Covid have any impact on the election other than making more people vote absentee?

I feel like as an issue it didn't end up being substantial to anyones decision to not vote for Trump or vote for Biden.
 
I absolutely don't want that, but there are people who do and we can't ignore that they exist.

I agree with you. The problem is that it seems that these small pockets are being conflated to the point where it seems they are associated with most, if not all, conservatives. Another sad effect of the 24h news cycle. I would also like to make it clear I did not mean you personally, apologies if it seemed to be the case.

@Momentum57, interesting question. If anything you could make the argument that it made more people vote as it emphasized the use of early voting and mail-in ballots despite the concerns with either method. COVID was also very much used as a talking point from both parties, with reasoned heads probably shifting towards Biden as it is very clear that the Trump administration response was not ideal in the best of cases.
 
I'd argue that it was covid that made Trump the first one-termer since Bush Sr.

Regarding the violence, we have become used to Trump actively gaslighting hate, but I wasn't expecting him to gaslight domestic terrorists. Not exactly what I'd call law & order, however it may rather be the other "law & order", as in dog whistling the darkest forces present in the US.
 
I think COVID was certainly what pushed the election in that direction an it's very probable he would have been reelected had it not been for COVID - I think it was more than COVID, it was his bungling of the US response and the fact that we had no national plan; it's even arguable that the national response was counterproductive and hampered response efforts in many states.

There are many reasons Trump wasn't reelected, the nearly endless supply of gaffs, missteps, mistakes, lies, and outright corruption all built the pyre upon which his presidency now burns.
 
Im going to reference polling... I know some are resentful at its shortcomings in accurately reflecting the electorate in every state.

Exit polling shows that Republican voters were unimpacted by covid messaging rather it hardened them. Trump won 93% of Republicans up from 2016 at 90%.

So I would say that for Republicans the Covid issue didn't motivate them to not vote for Trump. On the other hand I feel that for Democrats the issue of Covid was just one of the litany of reasons they were voting for Biden. I'm not convinced that without the issue of Covid Democrats were going to vote for Trump or not vote.

I would agree with @gaasc that it drove more people to apply for absentee voting but Im still kinda thinking that the die was cast before covid.
 
It wasn't the Republicans that were swayed by COVID, it was the independents.

In other news, Moscow Mitch has refused to acknowledge the election or Joe Biden as President-Elect.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/1...trump-is-100-percent-entitled-to-challenge-it

President-Elect Joe Biden’s Transition: Live Updates as McConnell Backs Trump’s Refusal to Concede​

Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, did not contradict President Trump’s false claims that the election was stolen from him. President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. unveiled his coronavirus task force. Mr. Trump fired Mark T. Esper, the secretary of defense.

Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the top Republican in Congress, on Monday threw his support behind President Trump’s refusal to concede the election, declining to recognize President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s victory as he argued Mr. Trump was “100 percent within his rights” to challenge the outcome.

Even as he celebrated the success of incumbent Republican senators who won re-election and the winnowing of Democrats’ House majority, Mr. McConnell, the majority leader, treated the outcome of the presidential election as uncertain, and hammered Democrats for calling on Mr. Trump to accept the results.

“President Trump is 100 percent within his rights to look into allegations of irregularities and weigh his legal options,” the Kentucky Republican said, delivering his first comments since Mr. Biden was declared the winner. “Let’s not have any lectures about how the president should immediately, cheerfully accept preliminary election results from the same characters who just spent four years refusing to accept the validity of the last election.”

Mr. McConnell did not contradict Mr. Trump’s false claims that the election was stolen from him, instead endorsing the president’s vow to pursue a bevy of lawsuits in key swing states aimed at handing him a victory. He said that “this process will reach its resolution” and that the nation’s legal and political system “will resolve any recounts or litigation.”

Following him on the floor, Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader, said flatly that “Joe Biden won this election fair and square.” He called Mr. Trump’s claims “extremely dangerous, extremely poisonous to our democracy” and warned Republican leaders not to give it oxygen.

“Republican leaders must unequivocally condemn the president’s rhetoric and work to ensure the peaceful transfer of power,” Mr. Schumer said.

Yet none have done so, and only a handful of Republican senators have acknowledged Mr. Biden’s victory.

Senator Susan M. Collins, Republican of Maine, broke ranks and congratulated Mr. Biden on his “apparent victory” and stressed the need to begin a presidential transition. She was only the fourth senator in her party to recognize his election since he declared victory on Saturday.

“He loves this country, and I wish him every success,” Ms. Collins said in a statement. “Presidential transitions are important, and the president-elect and the vice president-elect should be given every opportunity to ensure that they are ready to govern on January 20.”

Ms. Collins said that Mr. Trump should be given an opportunity to challenge the results and urged Americans to be patient. “I know that many are eager to have certainty right now,” she said. “While we have a clear direction, we should continue to respect that process.”

Ms. Collins easily and unexpectedly won re-election last week even as Mr. Biden carried her state by a comfortable margin. She will return to Washington for a fifth term with unusual power, given her ability to sway votes in a closely divided Senate on areas where she may find common ground with a Biden administration.

Senators Mitt Romney of Utah, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Ben Sasse of Nebraska are the only other Republicans in the chamber who have publicly congratulated Mr. Biden.

Mr. Sasse, an outspoken critic of Mr. Trump, congratulated Mr. Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris on Sunday, telling The Omaha World-Herald he and his wife would pray that both the incoming and outgoing president “would be wise in the execution of their respective duties during this important time in our nation.”
 
Whatever happened to “he’s still your president?”
 
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