Covid 19 CRISIS

[Dr_Grip]

Wait wait wait... so much going on here...

Good thing that vaccination-through-exposure conferred natural immunity seeing as how Africa has something like a 10%-15% vaccination rate as a whole. So, those people are now protected regardless of vaccine distribution.

Yes, and they had to endure a much higher risk of seriously getting sick during this initial exposure.

You posted "Yet, vaccination in addition to "natural immunity" still protects best." as if my post was debating that. Both the CDC and the Israeli study said that a person who has recovered from covid has better protection than a person who has had two doses of a vaccine. right?

And the combined protection of vaccination and recovery beats both vaccine- and naturally-induced immunity. Right?

Why are recovered people still treated like they are a danger to public health if they are better protected than people with two doses? That is what my post about Utah and Tennessee addresses.

This makes no sense, I agree.

People were getting covid before, during, and after vaccines were available(Remember all of those case numbers people loved to talk about?). Majority of those people recovered. Therefore, they have protection. If the stated goal is public safety then it should not matter if a person acquired their protection from a vaccine or solely from natural immunity.

And yet, each of these persons who did not get a shot risked, and some of them actually endured, unnecessarily severe covid.

Ahhh, gatekeeping. You assume I have not watched it.

I indeed assume that you are not intentionally misrepresenting Mr. Gates point of view as discouraging to take vaccines, and thus that you did not watch the full thing.

Funny how any differing of opinion gets labelled as anti-vax. Has any video I posted told anyone not to get vaccinated?

Well, it is strongly implied in the out-of-context Gates snipped ("make your own conclusions...").

Also, we are talking about facts, not opinions.

Facts are:
1. Getting covid unvaccinated is an unneccesary risk, even if the immunity from natural infection is on par with vaccine-induced immunity*
2. If after recovering from covid you get a shot on top, it gives you extra protection
3. Bill Gates did not say that with Omicron vaccines are redundant or not needed any more

Have I told anyone not to get vaccinated? I leave that to the individual to make that choice for themselves. If talking about natural immunity, allowing people choice, and not backing vaccine mandates make me anti-vax (*gasp* Heavens to Murgatroyd!) then I'll happily take that title; I have thick skin.

Talking about "natural immunity" as if it would be a like-for-like replacement for vaccination is questionable, IMHO, since in order to acquire said natural immunity, you have to catch covid unvaccinated, which even with Omicron comes with a significantly higher chance of ending up in hospital.
And that is where for me this is not about "choice" any more: If proponents of "natural immunity", who for no good reason at all refuse to take the vaccine, clog up hospitals, we will have restrictions again. And I would rather not spend another four months in house arrest come fall, so if push comes to shove, I fully support a vaccine mandate.

*this, by the way, holds true only in certain contexts, namely Delta-on-Alpha-reinfection.

 

[Mally Dangerous]

Yes, and they had to endure a much higher risk of seriously getting sick during this initial exposure.

In the case of the African continent the higher risk didn't matter because there was no other choice, as you know. As Gates said, 80% of people in African countries have been exposed to either a vaccine or a variant. We also know that the continent has a 10%-15% vaccination rate. Yet, the continent as a whole has not reported a high death rate. Now, this death rate can be debated as to why or discounted as bad record-keeping, but you would think that the people who live there would have noticed if a large percentage of their population died in the last two years.

And the combined protection of vaccination and recovery beats both vaccine- and naturally-induced immunity. Right?

Yeah, that was established in the CDC study as well other studies. However, that was never a point of debate when I mentioned Utah and Tennessee.

But since we are on topic, here's a CDC graft of the hospitalization data from California. Compare Unvaccinated with previous infection to Vaccinated with previous infection. Pretty much equal isn't it?

This makes no sense, I agree.

Very good.

And yet, each of these persons who did not get a shot risked, and some of them actually endured, unnecessarily severe covid.

Yes, and it is each individual's choice to assess that risk for themselves and take actions accordingly. Me, I'm a healthy person, I'm unvaccinated, I took the risk(because I'm healthy), I got covid from a vaccinated person, barely noticed that I had it and recovered. Do I tell people do what I do? No. Why? Because, again, I leave that to the choice of the individual.

I indeed assume that you are not intentionally misrepresenting Mr. Gates point of view as discouraging to take vaccines, and thus that you did not watch the full thing.

Shouldn't assume.

Well, it is strongly implied in the out-of-context Gates snipped ("make your own conclusions...").

Shouldn't assume.

Also, we are talking about facts, not opinions.

Facts are:
1. Getting covid unvaccinated is an unneccesary risk, even if the immunity from natural infection is on par with vaccine-induced immunity*
2. If after recovering from covid you get a shot on top, it gives you extra protection
3. Bill Gates did not say that with Omicron vaccines are redundant or not needed any more

1. Yes, it is risk that an individual must assess for themselves.
2. See may point above regarding the CDC study.
3. No one said Bill Gates said that.

And I would rather not spend another four months in house arrest come fall,

That is something that you need to take up with your policy-makers.

so if push comes to shove, I fully support a vaccine mandate.

And that is your choice to do. And it is my choice to oppose.

 

[Dr_Grip]

1. Yes, it is risk that an individual must assess for themselves.

See here.

2. See may point above regarding the CDC study.

It's proven that vaccination adds extra protection on top of prior infection. You can see that in your chart, but since the chart does only cover hospitalization rate, you can't see absolute case numbers per capita.

 

[Perc]

And that is your choice to do. And it is my choice to oppose.

I seem to recall, from the old days of IRC a decade before Covid 19, that you didn't even take ibuprofen or similar if you had a bad headache. So I'm trying to not file you in the same category as "anti-vaxxers" ie the ones that suddenly decided they're an expert on everything and spend their evenings on social media parroting words like "poison jab", "biolabs", "plandemic", "5G chip" and "nato is bad".

 

[Dr_Grip]

I seem to recall, from the old days of IRC a decade before Covid 19, that you didn't even take ibuprofen or similar if you had a bad headache. So I'm trying to not file you in the same category as "anti-vaxxers" ie the ones that suddenly decided they're an expert on everything and spend their evenings on social media parroting words like "poison jab", "biolabs", "plandemic", "5G chip" and "nato is bad".

"My immune system is stronger without any medicine" is a trope of the less crazy faction within those who refuse the covid (or any) vaccine.

 

[Mally Dangerous]

Oh, a twofer

I seem to recall, from the old days of IRC a decade before Covid 19, that you didn't even take ibuprofen or similar if you had a bad headache.

Yeah, that sounds about right but you didn't have look back a decade to see me say that; I mentioned that in my post about having covid. Sidenote: IRC was some fun times.

So I'm trying to not file you in the same category as "anti-vaxxers" ie the ones that suddenly decided they're an expert on everything and spend their evenings on social media parroting words like "poison jab", "biolabs", "plandemic", "5G chip" and "nato is bad".

What kind of egotistical bullshit is this? You felt the need to tell me what you are filing me under? Really? I don't care about your filing system, Sir.

"My immune system is stronger without any medicine" is a trope of the less crazy faction within those who refuse the covid (or any) vaccine.

So...you are being condescending now? You probably should reassess the idea of taking personal shots at people because lord knows you can't handle it when those shots are pointed at you.

 

[narf]

 

[Perc]

What kind of egotistical bullshit is this? You felt the need to tell me what you are filing me under? Really? I don't care about your filing system, Sir.

Ooookay that sounded a lot better in my head than it did now, re-reading my own post. I owe you an apology. I'm sorry.

My point was (and still is) that with the invasion of Ukraine, NATO membership is suddenly a hot topic in Finland and Sweden. And guess who are against joining? Of course it's the anti-vaxxers. The ones that use words like "plandemic" and call the rest of us sheep for getting vaccinated, etc. It suddenly became VERY clear to me who's doing their thinking for them. And I don't see you as one of "them".

Handshake?

 

[Mally Dangerous]

Ooookay that sounded a lot better in my head than it did now, re-reading my own post. I owe you an apology. I'm sorry.

My point was (and still is) that with the invasion of Ukraine, NATO membership is suddenly a hot topic in Finland and Sweden. And guess who are against joining? Of course it's the anti-vaxxers. The ones that use words like "plandemic" and call the rest of us sheep for getting vaccinated, etc. It suddenly became VERY clear to me who's doing their thinking for them. And I don't see you as one of "them".

Handshake?

Apology accepted! I appreciate the clarification, I truly do. *Firm handshake*

 

[calvinhobbes]

My point was (and still is) that with the invasion of Ukraine, NATO membership is suddenly a hot topic in Finland and Sweden. And guess who are against joining? Of course it's the anti-vaxxers. The ones that use words like "plandemic" and call the rest of us sheep for getting vaccinated, etc. It suddenly became VERY clear to me who's doing their thinking for them.

I wish it was any different in Germany, but that paragraph is 100% applicable here. It feels (and reads and sounds) like the “always against the gubbermint” crowd has simply moved on from one topic to the next and been able to very quickly adapt the conspiracy myths.

Anyway, something more on-topic: the Chinese zero COVID strategy is hitting a wall due to Omicron.

How many Covid cases are there in China? - BBC News

China has released a new Covid death figure, but there are concerns it is an underestimate.

www.bbc.com

Analysis: China's zero-Covid policy is showing signs of strain. But ditching it now could be a disaster

For nearly two years, China's daily Covid caseload rarely extended into triple digits, and often weeks went by without a single case.

amp.cnn.com

My wife is still in regular contact with coworkers in the company’s Shanghai office and some of the stories are chilling. For instance, a single case in a neighbourhood can result in a sudden lockdown, meaning that those who work there and don’t manage to get out fast enough are forced to sleep at their workplaces.

When a case was detected near the building where my wife used to work, the receptionist on the floor in question got wind of it and quickly spread the word. So everyone in the office was told to get out immediately and start working from home (again).

I don’t trust numbers from Chinese government sources, so my impression is that they’re just barely managing to avoid mass outbreaks in places that get international attention. The true numbers in the countryside almost certainly range from low (due to draconian lockdowns) to catastrophic, which of course would be kept secret as much as possible.

 

[Dr_Grip]

So...you are being condescending now? You probably should reassess the idea of taking personal shots at people because lord knows you can't handle it when those shots are pointed at you.

I have to join Perc here in apologizing. This was not meant to be an insult or condescending.
I maintain that it is not a smart idea to refuse a vaccine that reduces your likelyhood of ending up in hospital by 90-ish percent. And I maintain that since said reduced likelyhood is the difference between "third parties getting hospital care for non-covid shit" and them not getting it, this is not a question of freedom of choice.

After seeing the effect of covid both on young, healthy individuals who had bad cases or now have long covid, because they caught it before the vaccine was available, and on society as a whole, presenting "natural immunity" as a like for like alternative for vaccination, even on a "worked for me" basis, from my point of view, is irresponsible. That's why I get angry.

But this does not mean I look down on you.

 

[Mally Dangerous]

I have to join Perc here in apologizing. This was not meant to be an insult or condescending.

Apology accepted.

I maintain that it is not a smart idea to refuse a vaccine that reduces your likelyhood of ending up in hospital by 90-ish percent. And I maintain that since said reduced likelyhood is the difference between "third parties getting hospital care for non-covid shit" and them not getting it, this is not a question of freedom of choice.

After seeing the effect of covid both on young, healthy individuals who had bad cases or now have long covid, because they caught it before the vaccine was available, and on society as a whole, presenting "natural immunity" as a like for like alternative for vaccination, even on a "worked for me" basis, from my point of view, is irresponsible. That's why I get angry.

It is fine that we disagree.

But this does not mean I look down on you.

Thank you.

 

[93Flareside]

HEY.

 

[Mally Dangerous]

Is that megaphone taped to the robot dog? LMAO

https://twitter.com/JayinShanghai/status/1508859419358019587?s=20&t=U8c1T1YZKrm2emfwLpCNxA

 

[DanRoM]

Modern problems require modern solutions.

 

[eizbaer]

Modern 1984 problems require modern 1984 solutions.

ftfy... and not the good kind* of 1984, either
there's reports of them basically hunting down people outside with drones and shouting at them through those to go home. it's peak dystopia.

* good: the actual year 1984, I guess. the bad: you know what i mean...

 

[Mally Dangerous]

Yeah, I saw the drones too but I didn't post about them because I figured people knew about them already. Recent reports are saying that the drones are telling people not to sing from their balconies and to "control your soul's desire for freedom". Not sure if the connotation is the same as it is in English but it is getting real science-fictiony.

 

[Dr_Grip]

As I said earlier, lockdowns are a sign of bad statecraft. And that China is world-leading in "surveillance dystopia" is well known.

 

[GRtak]

US likely to see a surge of Covid-19 in the fall, Fauci says | CNN

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said on Wednesday that he thinks there will be an uptick in cases of Covid-19 over the next few weeks and that it is likely that there could be a surge in the fall.

www.cnn.com

 

[gaasc]

Not to worry, get your tissues and wrap the old people you care about in bubble wrap.