Clarkson: The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly discussion thread

[Peter3hg]

The DBS V8 was released in 1969. The Vettes I was talking about were built from 1955 to 1965.

The 1969 Corvette could be had with the 454 and did 0-60 in 5.6 seconds. The top speed of the early cars was limited by the transmission, but a factory optioned rear end brought the top speed closer to 170mph.

Sorry I didn't realise the era your were talking about.
The only thing we had of any note speed wise in this period was the DB4 GT Zagato which did 0-60 mph in 6.1 and topped out at 153mph.

 

[Vitamin J]

Sorry I didn't realise the era your were talking about.
The only thing we had of any note speed wise in this period was the DB4 GT Zagato which did 0-60 mph in 6.1 and topped out at 153mph.

Exactly, the Plymouth Superbird could do 200+mph in 1970 and the Corvette handled just as well as anything in the world from 1955 to 1979. The American car companies knew what they were doing in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. They're starting to relearn it now, but the 80's and 90's were not kind to GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

 

[acascianelli]

Exactly, the Plymouth Superbird could do 200+mph in 1970 and the Corvette handled just as well as anything in the world from 1955 to 1979. The American car companies knew what they were doing in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. They're starting to relearn it now, but the 80's and 90's were not kind to GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

There were some good cars that came out in the 80's and 90's from GM and Ford...

Buick GNX (Awesome 3.8L Turbo)
Corvette ZR1 (32V V8, LT5)
Taurus SHO (Twin-Cam Yamaho motor)
Mustang Turbo (2.3L Turbo 4, was faster than the V8 GT's for a while)
GMC Syclone/Typhoon (4.3L Turbo, AWD)
1988 Fiero GT (88 was the best year, killed off before it really started to shine)
1989 Grand Prix Turbo (3.1L turbo V6)
1992 Lumina Z34 (24V V6, came in a 5spd standard)
Thunderbird SC (Faster than the V8 T-birds)

...Granted the all had their problems...

GNX was too rare and expensive.
ZR1 was too expensive.
Taurus SHO's, the bodies rotted out around the engine.
Turbo Mustang's were temperamental, especially non-intercooled versions.
Syclones/Typhoons were too expensive
The Fiero could have been so much better if they kept it going a few more years.
Grand Prix Turbo's only came in automatic.
Z34 Lumina, the 3.4L V6 was high maintainence and temperamental.
Thunderbird SC's went through head gaskets like crazy.

 

[Vitamin J]

There were some good cars that came out in the 80's and 90's from GM and Ford...

Buick GNX (Awesome 3.8L Turbo)
Corvette ZR1 (32V V8, LT5)
Taurus SHO (Twin-Cam Yamaho motor)
Mustang Turbo (2.3L Turbo 4, was faster than the V8 GT's for a while)
GMC Syclone/Typhoon (4.3L Turbo, AWD)
1988 Fiero GT (88 was the best year, killed off before it really started to shine)
1989 Grand Prix Turbo (3.1L turbo V6)
1992 Lumina Z34 (24V V6, came in a 5spd standard)
Thunderbird SC (Faster than the V8 T-birds)

...Granted the all had their problems...

GNX was too rare and expensive.
ZR1 was too expensive.
Taurus SHO's, the bodies rotted out around the engine.
Turbo Mustang's were temperamental, especially non-intercooled versions.
Syclones/Typhoons were too expensive
The Fiero could have been so much better if they kept it going a few more years.
Grand Prix Turbo's only came in automatic.
Z34 Lumina, the 3.4L V6 was high maintainence and temperamental.
Thunderbird SC's went through head gaskets like crazy.

Yeah, there was some great cars. But unfortunately the corporate goal of American auto firms went from designing cars that people wanted to maximizing profits. That's why there was so much sharing, rebadging, and souless cars.


Just some interesting facts:
The C6's LS2 V8 weighs 470lbs, the RB26DETT and 2JZ-GTE weigh upwards of 800lbs and the M3's 3.2L I6 weighs 600lbs.

The Corvette's rear suspension is based more on an early '90s Formula 1 car than an ox cart.

Traditional leaf springs (trucks, ox carts, LAND ROVER DEFENDERS)

Corvette

It has one leaf spring that runs transversly connecting both a-arms. It acts as an anti-roll bar, lowers the center of gravity, is cheaper to make, cheaper to replace, easier to work on, less unsprung weight, and weighs less than 1/3 of what coil-overs would weigh. Many racing organizations ban the use of leaf springs because they can be very competetive. Independant corner spring rates can be accomplished easier with leaf springs. Combined with the Corvette's rear mounted trans-axle, the Corvette can out corner just about everything.

Proven by its 7:42.9 Nurburgring Lap time, faster than a 555hp Pagani Zonda C12 S, Ferrari 360 CS, Ferrari F430, Lamborghini Murcielago, Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche 996 911 Turbo, Porsche 997 911 Turbo, Porsche 996 911 GT3, Porsche 911 996 GT2, Dodge Viper, Ford GT, BMW M3 CSL, BMW M5, BMW M6, Audi RS4, Aston Martin DB9, Mercedes CLK DTM AMG, Radical 1500 SR3, McLaren F1, Jaguar XJ220, Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren, and runs the same time as the new Porsche 997 911 GT3 RS.

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=10073&bottom=0

 

[acascianelli]

All 3 of those I6 motors have cast Iron engine blocks, LS2/7/6/1 all have Aluminum blocks.

I agree, rebadging was ridiculous back then, and is still pretty bad now. Take the early GM W-Body cars for example

Pontiac Grand Prix
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Chevrolet Lumina
Buick Regal

Buick at least offered different motors, but the Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Chevrolet were pretty much the same damn car.

About the Corvette's rear end, people who point out the Corvette leaf spring setup as a fault are morons. The S197 Mustangs shares similar criticism because of its use of a live-rear axle. Although there are newer technologies such as IRS, the 3-link live-axle is actually very good and has respectable handling. When you launch the car with excessive wheelspin, its easy to keep the car from going sideways. When Hammond drove the Mustang on Top-Gear, even he admitted that the setup worked quite well.

 

[Vitamin J]

All 3 of those I6 motors have cast Iron engine blocks, LS2/7/6/1 all have Aluminum blocks.

That's exactly my point, why does BMW use an iron I6 when they could make a lighter and more powerful V8, cheaper to build as well.

 

[bran]

By the way, when using this forum...what language do you use?

English, which comes from England (mostly). You would happen to be from Texas would you? On two occasions when I lived in the USA I had conversations with people from Texas that went a little like this:

Texan: You speak very good English, where are you from?
Me: Er, England.
Texan: Oh, I didn't know they spoke English there.

When complaining about unfair comparisons based on price, something that none of the American posters probably realise is that by the time the Z06, Mustang etc get imported in the UK (at whom this DVD is aimed) their prices are a LOT higher thanks to assorted taxes and import duties. For example, a brand new 2007 Corvette Z06 is the equivalent of about $120,000 - the US list price is about $70,000-$75,000.

 

[Vitamin J]

When complaining about unfair comparisons based on price, something that none of the American posters probably realise is that by the time the Z06, Mustang etc get imported in the UK (at whom this DVD is aimed) their prices are a LOT higher thanks to assorted taxes and import duties. For example, a brand new 2007 Corvette Z06 is the equivalent of about $120,000 - the US list price is about $70,000-$75,000.

All the more reason not to live there!

But honestly the Z06 is worth that much, hell people in the US have paid that much for one.


And I'll let you in on a little secret: I met some stupid people when I visited England.

 

[bran]

And I'll let you in on a little secret: I met some stupid people when I visited England.

Yep, stupid people are everywhere.








Although Texas seems to have a higher concentration than most

 

[Vitamin J]

Ha yeah, but that's Texas for ya.

 

[SadaPow]

At least the opening and closing music was different. And better than that generic "rock" music.


Gee, Jeremy thinks Americans are stupid, fat and have a sexual interest in our sisters. Deep thoughts there. Odd how he is trying to convey just how elan and chic Europeans are, but in the process is reduced to childish, worn out jibbering.

I am sure in Europe, one can watch this and and feel a sense of pride. More power to you. Now look around your house and your city, and see how much America has infiltrated your culture and your life. By the way, when using this forum...what language do you use?

In the end, we win.


Oh...dont like that, huh? Seems a bit...I dunno...arrogant? Pretty nasty low blow words I used, huh?

Try watching that DVD again. Please. I implore you to do so. My point is, Americans dont wake up in the morning and think "well, gahl-LEEE! Im awesome! Much better dem der europeeeans!"

Im just fed up with getting dumped on, and not understanding why.

Agreed, people love to hate the Americans but its odd how we are so hated while still being one of the most mimicked cultures in the world.

http://img397.imageshack.**/img397/5910/2006chevroletcorvetteatsk2.jpg
^
Five Le Mans wins in the last six years...

I'd like to go to TG with a shirt with that on it.

 

[Vette Boss]

Ha yeah, but that's Texas for ya.

And most of America as well.

 

[marcos_eirik]

Those Nordschleife lap times doesen't say much, as they're all done in different conditions by different drivers. Especially as most factory test drivers are a lot faster around the Nordschleife than Horst Von Saurma whose done most of the times posted in AMS's SportAuto Supertests, which are used as a reference. The 7,42 laptime was done by Jan Magnussen, who said he would never do that again, as he said the lap was mostly held togehter by luck.

It's interesting the Corvettes rear axle is mentioned as so advanced and 90s F1-like, as even the Jaguar MK2 from the late 50s had a similar one. In fact Jaguar are famous for their superb multilink rear axles. There is a reason why it's usual to chop up old Jags to build Hot-Rods. The MK2 also had four wheel discbrakes, which gave them victory at Le Mans with the C-type.

And for a light V8 engine, the TVR AJP8 weighs a 121 kg that's 266 lbs. For a 4,5-litre dry sumped, flat plane crancked engine. As an interesting addition it's also strong enough to be a load bearing member... It's a funny point the LT5 is mentioned as it was engineered by Lotus.

The Land Rover Defender doesen't use Leaf Springs, and in fact never has, it's got long travel coil suspension. The very old Land Rovers, before the Range Rover was introduced used leaf springs.

 

[TC]

When complaining about unfair comparisons based on price, something that none of the American posters probably realise is that by the time the Z06, Mustang etc get imported in the UK (at whom this DVD is aimed) their prices are a LOT higher thanks to assorted taxes and import duties. For example, a brand new 2007 Corvette Z06 is the equivalent of about $120,000 - the US list price is about $70,000-$75,000.

At least you can import them, if you wanted. It's much more difficult to import into the USA.

But with current currency exchange rates, you could pick up a Z06 for around $40-50,000 pounds. I don't know exactly what you'd have to do to get it UK legal, but it shouldn't cost an extra $80,000 pounds to do.

 

[TC]

It's a funny point the LT5 is mentioned as it was engineered by Lotus.

It was also one of the least popular Corvette motors as well. It wasn't very light, it didn't make very much power, and it wasn't cheap. The only thing that motor had going for it was "DOHC" written next to the engine specs when showing it off to your friends.

 

[Vitamin J]

It was also one of the least popular Corvette motors as well. It wasn't very light, it didn't make very much power, and it wasn't cheap. The only thing that motor had going for it was "DOHC" written next to the engine specs when showing it off to your friends.

It did make 405hp when 300hp was a lot. But the LS6 makes that easily. Hell, I've seen LS1's making 500hp with nothing more than a cam and tune.

And LS7's making 700+hp with a cam, tune, and pump gas.

Those Nordschleife lap times doesen't say much, as they're all done in different conditions by different drivers. Especially as most factory test drivers are a lot faster around the Nordschleife than Horst Von Saurma whose done most of the times posted in AMS's SportAuto Supertests, which are used as a reference. The 7,42 laptime was done by Jan Magnussen, who said he would never do that again, as he said the lap was mostly held togehter by luck.

It's interesting the Corvettes rear axle is mentioned as so advanced and 90s F1-like, as even the Jaguar MK2 from the late 50s had a similar one. In fact Jaguar are famous for their superb multilink rear axles. There is a reason why it's usual to chop up old Jags to build Hot-Rods. The MK2 also had four wheel discbrakes, which gave them victory at Le Mans with the C-type.

And for a light V8 engine, the TVR AJP8 weighs a 121 kg that's 266 lbs. For a 4,5-litre dry sumped, flat plane crancked engine. As an interesting addition it's also strong enough to be a load bearing member... It's a funny point the LT5 is mentioned as it was engineered by Lotus.

The Land Rover Defender doesen't use Leaf Springs, and in fact never has, it's got long travel coil suspension. The very old Land Rovers, before the Range Rover was introduced used leaf springs.

Yes, the Nurburgring is tricky. But the Z06 has posted better times than a 997 Turbo on many different tracks with the same driver. In a straight line it's just as fast from 60 to 150mph as a McLaren F1 and will do 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 11.5. That's Enzo territory.

TVR is an amazing company. I'd take a Sagaris over a Z06 probably. But they don't mass produce engines like GM and BMW. Also, their V8 is based off the Buick V8.

 

[janstett]

It was also one of the least popular Corvette motors as well. It wasn't very light, it didn't make very much power, and it wasn't cheap. The only thing that motor had going for it was "DOHC" written next to the engine specs when showing it off to your friends.

More specifically, the LS1 replaced the LT1 as the base motor in the next generation corvette, and the pushrod cam-in-block LS1 made as much power as the mighty LT5, was lighter, more reliable, and had a lower center of gravity.

There are disadvantages to an overhead cam motor -- complexity and center of gravity.

 

[logo]

not so good, not bad either, just because of that roush mustang and the last forg gt.. everything else was meh.. boring actually. and the recording was awful, we got so used to the filters used on top gear, i guess they used wrong filters under the hot sun, it looked like a home video on some scenes.

 

[Vitamin J]

There are disadvantages to an overhead cam motor -- complexity and center of gravity.

Weight, cost, durability, less torque, etc as well. Although overhead cam engines have less rotational mass which helps them rev higher.

 

[janstett]

Name 3 good and american offroaders.

Start with the Jeep Wrangler (descendent of the original CJ), which created the entire category. You know, the one that the folks from Land Rover were imitating because they used theirs so much they wore it out, when they founded the company. Those things can crawl up walls.

The H1 is meant more for speed on open desert than for rock crawling -- but it's fast in the open and can ford very deep water.

Something like the Jeep Cherokee Overland will give a Range Rover a run for its money --on and off road.

The old Ford Broncos and old Jeep Cherokees are popular choices for off-road enthusiasts.

The H2 is a GMC Yukon in Hummer-wannabe clothing. The Cadillac is a bling-mobile that I think is also based on the Yukon. Neither one would be the first vehicle I would select to go against a Land Rover. The Jeep Wrangler is the undisputed offroad king.

Also the conspicuous high-centering is obviously sabotage to achieve the desired results.