Well this is just disgusting.

ssnapier said:
Having the perspective of 15 years of US Army service behind this post, and 6 deployments to places such as Bosnia, Haiti, Ukraine, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait you guys are making WAY too much out of this.

Just like Zenkidori said, kids have been doing this stuff FOREVER, and they really do enjoy the "game" of it. Let me give you another side to this, that no one here seems to be catching. When we first arrive anywhere, the scene is always the same... kids running around asking for MRE's, water, Coke, whatever they can get their hands on. Lots of guys give it to them, but it causes HUGE problems. I cannot recall how many patrols I have been on where kids were just screwing around asking for stuff and damn near got killed by a truck because they were not paying attention. After a few weeks, there is almost always a ban placed on US soldier when it comes to this sort of stuff because it endangers lives, and lots of these little kids get their asses kicked by bigger kids to get whatever it is they have.

We have civil affairs units that are specifically designated to handle situations like this, and they do it off of main supply routes and away from major traffic areas so that no one risks injury or death to get some food or water. There are also MP's or some sort of enforcement detail, with lots of interpreters, on hand to ensure no one gets beat up during the delivery.

I have had kids follow me for 4 or 5 miles on a foot patrol just because they find it fun. They will ask you for ANYTHING they think you will give them.... food, water, batteries, clothes, coins, rocks, dog tags, books, pens, pencils, paper, literally anything.

Yes, the guy in this video was messing with them, but there is no context to it. It is entirely possible that he patrols this area every day, and knows something that we don't. Not every little kid is an innocent bystander either. I recall having to chase a 10 year old to get my CD player back after he jumped into the back of my truck and yanked it out of a bag at an intersection. My point here is, do not freak out and say he is instantly a "horrible human being" based on a one minute video clip with zero context to it, because although you MIGHT be right, you might also be very, very wrong.

As for the comparisons of Abu-Grahib to Auschwitz, please get a grip... it is not even close.
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Thanks for posting that. Really adds some perspective.
 
Firecat said:
collateral damage? What a fucking joke.

I'm not going to justify the killing of civilians because I don't agree with it. It's really something I shouldn't even have to put down in writing because it should be obvious. But for some reason you interpret my disgust for U.S. soldiers as some sort of love for "terrorists" :rolleyes:
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Your disgust for US Soldiers is pretty misplaced, and way too broad. I have witnessed soldiers from at least 6 other armies do things 50 times worse than tease a kid with a water bottle or take a picture of guys in their underwear (abu grahib reference). I have also witnessed people in general do things much worse to their own countrymen! Hav eyou ever seen what the Islamic religious police do to people who fail to follow the rules? That shit is BRUTAL!!

All I ask is that you stop sepaking in generalities and sya what you mean. There are bad people everywhere, but on the whole the US military is a very honorable, caring and dedicated group of people who are only doing a job given to them by their superiors. That is quite often not an easy task, but we all do it and move on to the next thing without hesitation, because that is what we are here to do.
 
hanasand said:
bandwagon.jpg
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LAME, and not what we are talking about! I personally think Bush has some very good points, but he lacks the ability to communicate them. I also blame his staff partially for that failure.... I am not talking just about Iraq either, I mean his overall presidency.

With that said, my only wish is that the next guy has just as much spine as Bush does, but applies it with a bit more thought and planning.
 
Yeah, all you did was search 'bandwagon' on Google Images... I know because I did the exact same thing.

:lmao:
 
ssnapier said:
Your disgust for US Soldiers is pretty misplaced, and way too broad. I have witnessed soldiers from at least 6 other armies do things 50 times worse than tease a kid with a water bottle or take a picture of guys in their underwear (abu grahib reference). I have also witnessed people in general do things much worse to their own countrymen! Hav eyou ever seen what the Islamic religious police do to people who fail to follow the rules? That shit is BRUTAL!!

All I ask is that you stop sepaking in generalities and sya what you mean. There are bad people everywhere, but on the whole the US military is a very honorable, caring and dedicated group of people who are only doing a job given to them by their superiors. That is quite often not an easy task, but we all do it and move on to the next thing without hesitation, because that is what we are here to do.
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Yeah, other countries are worse. And if we were talking about those countries/soldiers, I'd be saying the same things (or worse).

I know several soldiers, and they are cool. My contempt is limited to those that are involved in the conflict (So prior to this war, I really didn't have any issues with the U.S military). I really hope that soliders don't just follow orders blindly. I can't excuse someone merely because they are just doing what they are told.
 
Firecat said:
I know several soldiers, and they are cool. My contempt is limited to those that are involved in the conflict (So prior to this war, I really didn't have any issues with the U.S military). I really hope that soliders don't just follow orders blindly. I can't excuse someone merely because they are just doing what they are told.
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So you only hate soldiers that have been sent to Iraq, even tho they have NO say in where they go? Wow that's mature. Also, soldiers NOT following orders would be a VERY bad thing. Just imagine if there was a precedent for the military disobeying orders and doing thier own thing before the Korean War. There wouldn't be a China right now. The military disobeying orders is about the dumbest thing I've heard all day(and I was at the mall earlier).
 
Soldiers refusing orders is nothing new. It's the right thing to do when you are ordered to do something wrong. Maybe if more soldiers refused orders, there could actually be peace in the world. Imagine if German soldiers refused to follow Hitler...looking at so many wars in the past (from all parts of the world), I wish more soldiers had refused to serve.

But I guess you all believe that soldiers must do what they are told. So if they are told to go kill someone, regardless of the situation...they have to obey. Right? Pathetic.

My friends aren't active, so it doesn't matter. They don't believe in this war, so they wouldn't fight anyway. I guess that makes them bad soldiers, because they have fuckin' brains and use them instead of acting like bloody sheep.

I assume that you will all be as forgiving for soldiers from other nations that follow orders of their governments. Probably not. So don't call me a hypocrite.
 
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well where are your altruistic and oh so ethical freedom fighters? Funny nobody has ever heard of em, perhaps they live in your head?

And yes, soldiers can refuse orders if it would for example be a war crime, but I don't know anyone or have even heard of anyone in Iraq who has been ordered to do something like that. The whole "illegal" war thing is debatable. So if you are trying to equate soldiers stationed in Iraq to Nazi war criminals, find somewhere else to stand on your soapbox and rave like a lunatic. You're pathetic for hating soldiers for obeying orders, you act as if everyone is ordered to murder children and rape mothers on a daily basis. You're just as bad as those retards holding "baby killer" signs for soldiers to see when they came home from Vietnam.

Your beef lies with those in charge of the war, not the ones doing thier job, but they are out of your reach so you're just lashing out at anyone remotely involved, pathetic.
 
Firecat said:
My friends aren't active, so it doesn't matter. They don't believe in this war, so they wouldn't fight anyway. I guess that makes them bad soldiers, because they have fuckin' brains and use them instead of acting like bloody sheep.
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I wish my friends were wannabe deserters. If your "friends" didn't realize that being soldiers involved following orders, possibly to their deaths, then they didn't give the whole "soldier" idea a lot of thought.
 
I actually had to laugh at the last few posts... this is WAY beyond stupid now!

Soldiers are trained from the beginning to ask themselves three things:

Is it legal?
Is it Moral?
Is it Ethical?
If yes to all three, youmust do it regardless of your opinion on the situation. If no to one, you have a duty to question it and either come to a resolution that enables youto act on it or take the issue to your chain of command. There are many situations where this scenario just does not work though (split second decisions and what not) but in general, what I said above applies to everything.
 
zenkidori said:
well where are your altruistic and oh so ethical freedom fighters? Funny nobody has ever heard of em, perhaps they live in your head?

And yes, soldiers can refuse orders if it would for example be a war crime, but I don't know anyone or have even heard of anyone in Iraq who has been ordered to do something like that. The whole "illegal" war thing is debatable. So if you are trying to equate soldiers stationed in Iraq to Nazi war criminals, find somewhere else to stand on your soapbox and rave like a lunatic. You're pathetic for hating soldiers for obeying orders, you act as if everyone is ordered to murder children and rape mothers on a daily basis. You're just as bad as those retards holding "baby killer" signs for soldiers to see when they came home from Vietnam.

Your beef lies with those in charge of the war, not the ones doing thier job, but they are out of your reach so you're just lashing out at anyone remotely involved, pathetic.
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The war is not debatable. End of story.
 
BerserkerCatSplat said:
I wish my friends were wannabe deserters. If your "friends" didn't realize that being soldiers involved following orders, possibly to their deaths, then they didn't give the whole "soldier" idea a lot of thought.
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My friends would gladly sacrifice themselves if the reasons were justifiable.
 
ssnapier said:
I actually had to laugh at the last few posts... this is WAY beyond stupid now!

Soldiers are trained from the beginning to ask themselves three things:

Is it legal?
Is it Moral?
Is it Ethical?
If yes to all three, youmust do it regardless of your opinion on the situation. If no to one, you have a duty to question it and either come to a resolution that enables youto act on it or take the issue to your chain of command. There are many situations where this scenario just does not work though (split second decisions and what not) but in general, what I said above applies to everything.
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The answer to the first question is "no" (from both an international and domestic perspective)...Yet soldiers still went into combat.

I agree, this is way beyond stupid. And i'm sick of reading this "following orders" trash.
 
Firecat said:
The war is not debatable. End of story.
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So is that why people have been debating it?:rolleyes:

The answer to the first question is "no" (from both an international and domestic perspective)...Yet soldiers still went into combat.
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If you are told, "search this house for weapons", How would that be "no" to anything? If you are told, "bring supplies to these people", how would that be "no"? If you are told, "guard this checkpoint so someone who wants to blow random people up doesn't get in", how would that be "no"?

You just have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Firecat said:
The answer to the first question is "no" (from both an international and domestic perspective)...Yet soldiers still went into combat.
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You are quite wrong there... did you forget about the dozens of UN resolutions that were ignored or violated? Who cares about the WMD thing. Saddam was still thumbing his nose at the planet and the verdict in his recent trial validates that argument.

The leader of Iran is just as bad if not worse, but I am not in support of military action at this point because of several reason I am not going to discuss right now.

The question of legality is not based on what you read in the paper or what CNN is telling you. You have to base it on the orders in front of you, and those orders usually have NOTHING to do with politics. My last deployment order said something like "YOU WILL REPORT TO ________ IN SUPPORT OF ________ FOR AN UNKNOWN DURATION BASED ON MISSION COMPLETION."

Based on orders like that, exactly what was illegal?
 
zenkidori said:
So is that why people have been debating it?:rolleyes:

If you are told, "search this house for weapons", How would that be "no" to anything? If you are told, "bring supplies to these people", how would that be "no"? If you are told, "guard this checkpoint so someone who wants to blow random people up doesn't get in", how would that be "no"?

You just have no idea what you are talking about.
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I wasn't referring to any specific orders during war, but rather the order to go there in the first place
 
Scott said:
You are quite wrong there... did you forget about the dozens of UN resolutions that were ignored or violated? Who cares about the WMD thing. Saddam was still thumbing his nose at the planet and the verdict in his recent trial validates that argument.

The leader of Iran is just as bad if not worse, but I am not in support of military action at this point because of several reason I am not going to discuss right now.

The question of legality is not based on what you read in the paper or what CNN is telling you. You have to base it on the orders in front of you, and those orders usually have NOTHING to do with politics. My last deployment order said something like "YOU WILL REPORT TO ________ IN SUPPORT OF ________ FOR AN UNKNOWN DURATION BASED ON MISSION COMPLETION."

Based on orders like that, exactly what was illegal?
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The violation of UN resolutions is not a pretext for war. According to international law, in order for one country to attack another the former had to have been attacked or in imminent danger.
 
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