UK Schoolgirl loses veil legal case

If she is religious she should be allowed to wear a veil. Traditionally muslim women are required to cover their heads and not faces. In the same manner muslim men need to cover their heads when offering Namaz (praying). I am a muslim and my mom never wears a veil nor my sisters when they are in the city. They do cover up their heads sometimes.

Veil is a matter of choice. If the kids parents are forcing her to wear a veil they should not. Its wrong.
 
Firecat said:
People have their reasons to wear veils or grow beards, it doesn't make them fundamentalists.
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well yes, obviously... the first thing a lot of my male friends in Turkey did after finishing school was to grow a nice huge beard, just for the fun of it... but since you can?t really differentiate between a beard that is supposed to look cool and one that is supposed to make a statement, you just get rid of both... it?s not really a big deal you know... I know this all might sound a bit weird if you?ve never lived in a muslim country, but that?s the way it is...

yusha said:
If she is religious she should be allowed to wear a veil.
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I agree with you as long as it doesn?t interfere with her education, which it does in this case... generally speaking I would also agree that it falls under descrimination when a muslim girl isn?t allowed to wear a veil, but the catholic girl sitting next to her can wear a cross around her neck... I think religion should either be kept out of schools altogether, or dealt with sensibly...
 
Ford Prefect said:
well yes, obviously... the first thing a lot of my male friends in Turkey did after finishing school was to grow a nice huge beard, just for the fun of it... but since you can?t really differentiate between a beard that is supposed to look cool and one that is supposed to make a statement, you just get rid of both... it?s not really a big deal you know... I know this all might sound a bit weird if you?ve never lived in a muslim country, but that?s the way it is...
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No, you just don't do anything. Denying somebody from growing a beard isn't going to make them less radical in their thinking.
 
Schools are for education, not religious expression.

btw. the Sikhs demand they wear daggers to school,
because it's their religious duty to do so.

In a few decades, some weird cult might also become a recognized
religion, and they also could (knowingly) demand they carry shotguns
into school, dressed in body armor.
 
You're not comparing a dagger to a veil?
 
nomix said:
You're not comparing a dagger to a veil?
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Why should some religions be allowed to do/wear something,
and others not?

Muslims, Sikhs, Catholics, Scientologists... they should all respect
the secularity of an educational institution. If they want to mix education
and religion, they always can establish their own schools for their own ideals.
 
Firecat said:
No, you just don't do anything. Denying somebody from growing a beard isn't going to make them less radical in their thinking.
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you?re absolutely right, but you?ve missed the point entirely

SuperStalin said:
Schools are for education, not religious expression.
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exactly...

SuperStalin said:
Muslims, Sikhs, Catholics, Scientologists... they should all respect
the secularity of an educational institution. If they want to mix education
and religion, they always can establish their own schools for their own ideals.
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in essence I absolutely agree with you... the only problem with this is that poor people don?t have this choice...
 
Ford Prefect said:
in essence I absolutely agree with you... the only problem with this is that poor people don?t have this choice...
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I just can't believe that Saudi petrol dollars can always be spent
on buying arms for every conflict involving muslims throughout the world,
but they just can't get around to financing proper schools.

For some reason they finance everyone who's willing to blow himself up,
but they haven't got a dime to spare for someone who's willing to learn.
 
Ford Prefect said:
you?re absolutely right, but you?ve missed the point entirely
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Then you need to explain yourself better, because it sounds like you want to ban everyone from growing beards because some Muslim fundamentalists have them.

That in and of itself sounds very fundamentalist.
 
nomix said:
An item of clothing generally isn't leathal. A dagger is.
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But that's besides the point.

They must predict the possible consequences of
any decision. If they allow muslims to carry their "holy" things,
tomorrow, some other religion will demand their "holy" thing
to be allowed.
 
I think we all know the real purpose behind this.

it's to stop this from happening:
ninja_classroom.jpg

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHxguA2xF30[/youtube]
 
SuperStalin said:
But that's besides the point.

They must predict the possible consequences of
any decision. If they allow muslims to carry their "holy" things,
tomorrow, some other religion will demand their "holy" thing
to be allowed.
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It's exactly on the point, there is a difference between an item of clothing, and something that will easily kill you. I am all for religious freedom, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

Children, which are very agressive by nature, should not carry knives, hence they might use them. Therefore, it's exactly on the point, and relevant.
 
This boils down to a few basic points:

The first is the "slippery slope" argument - "If we allow this what will someone demand next?" - This is a fallacy. By this argument no religious related items may ever be carried into school ever again. Jewelry worn under the clothes, rings, head scarves, prayer books, etc. Because if we let even one item into a school the next thing we know a kid will paint a cross on the hull of a tank and call himself a holy warrior. Gimmie a break.

The second argument against is that it's a barrier to communication: This is also one of the arguments used to oppose de-segregation of the schools. I have had conversations with women wearing veils and one of my friends from college lived in Arab nations when she was in high school (her father worked for the US State department at various embassies). I have never had a problem communicating with someone in a veil. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, wearing a veil would not keep the child from learning and it only prevents the teacher from teaching if they want it to. White teachers can teach to black kids and vice versa - if that can be overcome then so can this.

Finally, that a veil is a sign of fundamentalism: It may be to some, but it does not mean that everyone with a veil is a fundamentalist. That should be evident in the fact that the girl is attending this particular school, which, I imagine, is shared by males. I have a beard, does that make me a mad bomber? This is nothing more than an expression of your own fears. If this child were really coming from a background of such hatred I don't think she would be attending a western school.

It's actions like this that ostracize the Muslim community. Instead of treating them as outsiders, people like this girl should be embraced and welcomed into the community. Keeping a group on the fringes of society is exactly how you foster animosity - I'm not saying that she will become a bomber, but it will certainly detract from any relationships in "main stream" society.
 
I think there may be a bit less tolerance in european countries of outsiders and unpopular beliefs. My muslim friend is from Morocco and spent a few years moving around Europe before coming to the states and he said that europeans are by far less tolerant of Muslims and outsiders in general. He told me that he experienced a great deal of prejudice from europeans and knew other muslims who went thru the same thing as well, for example women wearing the hijab. He also said that since coming to the US he hasn't experienced any kind of prejudice attack or mean spirited slur(which honestly kind of suprised me). Every now and then someone at work says "derka-derka" to him because of his accent and sometimes he speaks Moroccan to some of the other Moroccan guys, but it's all in good fun and he has never taken offense to it.

With this is mind, it's possible that it may pose a significant barrier to communication in parts of europe, but not parts of the US. I've seen women walking around wearing the hijab and veils and all that around here, even in banks, and nobody has much to say about it, but then there's that video of the Danish(?) chick who wore one for a day and got all sorts of shit. There weren't any Muslims that wore coverings where I attended school, but there were a few jews and sihks who wore headcoverings like the yamika, and I only observed curiosity, most commonly resulting in a short questioning:
"what's that?"
"it's my yamika/turban"
"what's it for?"
"it's part of my religion"
"oh, cool"

and that's about it. sometimes kids would press on(like me :D) and ask why they wear it and shit, but there really wasn't a problem. However, some things work in certain areas and won't in others.
 
It's interesting that Europe is more closed minded than the US, yet over here we tend to think of the Europeans as being progressive.

Very interesting.
 
That's like saying everyone in America loves his gun, drives a pickup, goes around spitting chew and eating a couple of big macs for lunch.

It's a stereotype. Racism and prejudice is quite common in every society.
 
The "slippery slope" isn't a fallacy in such matters,
one thing truly leads to another.

If you allow something to some group,
other groups will also demand the same thing.

It's political abuse of an educational institution.

A "slippery slope" would be if I said:

"Soon, schools won't have classrooms,
but shrines and altars, and ten different
objects for each specific food some religion
or group demands for their kosher & halal needs."
 
As long as it isn't dangerous, it's okay. Simple as that.
 
Firecat said:
Then you need to explain yourself better, because it sounds like you want to ban everyone from growing beards because some Muslim fundamentalists have them.

That in and of itself sounds very fundamentalist.
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well I?m sorry, from reading some of your many posts in the political discussion area you seem intelligent and well educated, so I didn?t feel the need to spell it out for you... but anyway: I never said that I want to ban anyone from growing a beard, I said that this is how it?s done in Turkey, and that I think the approach of keeping religion out of classrooms altogether is the best one in a world where cultural and religious diversity is growing more and more... good enough? ;)

I think that a girl wearing a piece of clothing covering her face does pose a problem to communication, I mean of course it?s technically possible to speak to someone wearing a veil, but I personally like to see the face of whoever I?m talking to, and I think that allowing this sort of thing will alienate muslims even more. When I was a kid going to primary school I would have had a problem becoming friends with someone whose face I have never seen. I also really don?t see the connection between this and a white teacher teaching a black kid...

As for europeans being less open minded: I have to admit I haven?t been to the US for about 8 years, but after 12 years of international schools in several different countries, with classrooms usually filled with people from at least ten different cultures and religions, the experience I?ve made is that on the surface americans are very open minded, friendly, and very able to interact with people of different backgrounds and cultures, but when you dig deeper you find that the opposite is the case. Europeans on the other hand are a lot more direct when it comes to stating their oppinions about different countries and belief systems. This can easily cause problems, especially when you?re in a school or working environment. I?ve always admired the way americans manage to "just get along" and work together with people who they actually don?t like. But this is a total generalization, and I don?t mean to offend anyone.

edit:
I knew I shouldn?t have gotten into this discussion, I?ve had it so many times recently, (after a turkish teacher at a german public school went to court so that she would be allowed to wear a headscarf while teaching) and it never leads anywhere. An interesting point though is that all well educated muslims I know are totally against this, while most of the catholic or protestant native germans are all for it in a senseless effort to act multicultural and open minded....
 
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