GT500 dyno test on TG

[ascari_2]

What did they make up?

The fact that the GT500 is NOT a 500hp car. Once again as I said before, I am not aware of ANY manufacturer that releases WHP number as an advertisement. This car does produce ~500hp just as the M5 produces ~500hp, just as the LP640 produces 640HP, and so on. By their own logic they should have renamed the LP640 to probably an LP570 or "almost LP640".

Come on you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that this car was treated in a way that is different from other cars on that show. No doubt about the fact that it handles like house with wheels, but it does have the power that the car is advertised with.

 

[Roberto]

My point is they didn't make anything up! Some people (like VXR500 owners) may look at the 500 and say "hmm, that has 500 BHP at the wheels", which it doesn't. It's a good, useful bit of education.

 

[ascari_2]

My point is they didn't make anything up! Some people (like VXR500 owners) may look at the 500 and say "hmm, that has 500 BHP at the wheels", which it doesn't. It's a good, useful bit of education.

TG pretty much said it on the show that it's not a 500hp car. If they all of a sudden have decided to look at whp for cars, then be consistent and do it for all cars, and don't say that the LP640 has 640hp. Are you going to tell me that an average person who does not know the difference between whp and bhp who watches TG did not get the impression that Ford is over rating their car?

I wonder if Jeremey has the guts to actually call the Lambo an "almost LP640".

 

[Roberto]

Due to the fact this is an aftermarket tuned car perhaps there is a greater loss from the fly to wheel than there is in the Lambo. Why on earth shoudn't they use the Mustang, its just a case of "oh my goodness, they are mocking our car, we must defend ourselves, no wait, lets attack them instead"

<<I like that emoticon thingy :lol:

 

[Interrobang]

.As for all of you who use the argument of "I don't drive an engine, I drive a car" well then guess what, you never drive the advertised hp. Go ahead and put your Focus, F355, Supra, Mondeo, or anything else on a dyno and see how close you come to the advertised hp.

Well, that used to be different. Here in Germany (and some other States in Europe as well) your Car-taxes were high or low depending on how much HP your Car could produce (they?ve changed that System though to Engine ccm). The more Power, the more Tax. And these Taxes weren?t calculated by the Adverts of Carmanufactures or theoretical Engineperformance, they were measured and you?d pay for what your car could really produce. If your 500HP Car produced 50 HP less then advertised, it would be quite cheaper So the 17 Year old Fiesta I drive did (when it was new - there still was the HP-tax ) really do the 50HP it says in it?s Papers, not because Ford did an Ad with it, but because it was measured and taxed this way. They might have advertised it with "55 HP" or watever, but your Papers show the real HP, and they would have been stupid telling People 55 HP, when that would habe made the Car more expensive with taxes then it really was.

And my Point was never "blame Ford", I think that is a general issue like you never get 4,7GB of Data on a DVD, or a 2GB USB-Stick will never store 2GB, always less. They write big Numbers on it so it sells, but thats just some marketing-Joke, making Fun of everyone stupid enough to belive them. I think it?s not right if any Carfirm does it. If BMW say their M5 does 507HP, it should do it, not just the Engine. Anything else is misleading the Customer. I wounder why nobody ever sued over that Issue, If my terribly expensive Car turned out to be 10-20% shorter on Power than advertised, i?d get my Money back.

It might seem unfair that TG picked just Ford for this one, I?m with you on that. They should have done a report how they all LIE in that way (wich I do suspect too). But that doesn?t change the Point that the 500 HP Ford puts as a Label on this Car is a Fake. "The others all do it too" - thats a Childs apology, not one that fits Carmanufacturer that wants to be takten seriously.

 

[ascari_2]

Due to the fact this is an aftermarket tuned car perhaps there is a greater loss from the fly to wheel than there is in the Lambo. Why on earth shoudn't they use the Mustang, its just a case of "oh my goodness, they are mocking our car, we must defend ourselves, no wait, lets attack them instead"

<<I like that emoticon thingy :lol:

I think a mustang is a rust bucket. I'm not here to defend my honor as I am neither American, nor do I like American cars. The fact that this is an aftermarket tuned car does not change the fact that there is a 10-15% drivetrain loss through a manual transmission. The LP640 is an AWD car which likely has greater power loss then a regular RWD. There's a clear misrepresentation as to the power output of the GT500 on the part of TG. End of story.

 

[Roberto]

There's a clear misrepresentation as to the power output of the GT500 on the part of TG.

No there isn't!! It doesn't produce the 500BHP at the wheels, that was proved.

 

[SuperStalin]

The main idea behind the tested Mustang was to "have a lot of BHP",
that's the car's main selling point, besides the pretty design.
But there's not much else going for that car.

The Roush Mustang which doesn't have as much power
and doesn't advertise it as much IS FASTER and an overall better car.

That's their point.

 

[ascari_2]

It might seem unfair that TG picked just Ford for this one, I?m with you on that. They should have done a report how they all LIE in that way (wich I do suspect too). But that doesn?t change the Point that the 500 HP Ford puts as a Label on this Car is a Fake. "The others all do it too" - thats a Childs apology, not one that fits Carmanufacturer that wants to be takten seriously.

I'm with you on what you say. I just wish that TG being a car enthusiast show take 30 seconds to explain the difference between WHP and BHP before saying something that a reasonable person would take to mean that the car is being over rated.

 

[ascari_2]

No there isn't!! It doesn't produce the 500BHP at the wheels, that was proved.

Do you know the meaning of misrepresentation? A reasonable person not knowing the difference between bhp and whp hearing that this car did not produce the 500hp will have a misrepresented view of this car's power.

Stop trying to cover up for TG. I think it's a great show, but if you're going to dyno test a car, explain the results.

 

[Indiana Jones]

No there isn't!! It doesn't produce the 500BHP at the wheels, that was proved.

Yes, but it does produce 500 BHP at the "brake" or engine output shaft, which is what BHP refers to. BHP doesn't mean WHP. All cars are quoted in BHP and Ford's figure of 500hp is correct. TG suggests it produced 447BHP, which is incorrect.

 

[SuperStalin]

I'm with you on what you say. I just wish that TG being a car enthusiast show take 30 seconds to explain the difference between WHP and BHP before saying something that a reasonable person would take to mean that the car is being over rated.

What, like 30 seconds in each episode?

Do you think they should also add disclaimers
for every other thing they say in the show,
you know, because someone might feel hurt or misinformed.

 

[Roberto]

So basically, your issue is that they used the term "BHP" instead of "WHP" Well, they got the point across that the GT500 isn't all it seems, and that the car with less BHP and WHP is the better one!

 

[thedguy]

You guys know that Ford put a limit on power production in the factory ECU's for the first 50 or so start ups right?

They had trouble a while back with some of their cars burning up cats moving the cars around the factory grounds and on and off trailers and what not that they put that limit in.

There is a good chance they may have ran into that little problem. There is also the possibility that the GT500 isn't all what it's cracked up to be. As is it's not particularly quick according to many magazine tests.

 

[Tytanium]

You guys know that Ford put a limit on power production in the factory ECU's for the first 50 or so start ups right?

They had trouble a while back with some of their cars burning up cats moving the cars around the factory grounds and on and off trailers and what not that they put that limit in.

There is a good chance they may have ran into that little problem. There is also the possibility that the GT500 isn't all what it's cracked up to be. As is it's not particularly quick according to many magazine tests.

It's either 50 startups or 12 miles @ 4000RPM, whichever comes first. It prevents the supercharger from developing boost until the engine is properly broken in and the rings are seated properly.

 

[zenkidori]

i see alot of people here, and on other sites, mostly american, gettin rather antsy about the Dyno test on TG

along the lines of "duh its not gonna have 500bhp at the wheels, wheel dynos only measure power at the wheels, engine is still 500bhp blah blah blah"

and to that i say this

its not beyond the engineers of this world to easily work out/back calc to get a good idea of power at the fly wheel. some use arbritary % to guesstimate and others can actually work out power at the flywheel by letting the car coast to a stop with the clutch pressed in.

you have losses from the gearbox, rolling resistance is alittle higher due to how the wheels sit on the machine, etc.... these can easily be accounted for.

granted its not as accurate as an engine dyno, but its not going to be too far off the mark.

so my question to you all : why do people think TG and the dyno guys would omit a very easy task like that?

out of spite?

it's actually not an easy task. drivetrain loss is different for all cars, it depends on a lot of things, you can't just add in some arbitrary % and get the real number, the engine HP needs to be measured on an engine brake dyno.

strangly enough, the last time top gear used the rolling road they talked about drivetrain loss and how hp at the crank and HP at the wheels are different, but not this time. I don't really care because the GT 500 is only half a car anyway, I'd much rather have a Roush.

also, the US uses SAE HP not BHP.

 

[ascari_2]

What, like 30 seconds in each episode?

Do you think they should also add disclaimers
for every other thing they say in the show,
you know, because someone might feel hurt or misinformed.

Come on man be reasonable. First time every they do a dyno test. It wouldn't have hurt them to educate the people who are watching the difference between bhp and whp. If I only started counting the minutes they spent on useless sh|t like burning down campers and building convertible people carriers. And to also state that the results DID indicate the car to have the 500BHP that it is claiming.

 

[Steve Levin]

The whole dyno testing was silly.

That said, I've driven the Roush, and whilst faster on the track, it's not nearly the decent daily driver the GT500 is. One you can live with driving 20 miles to work every day, one you can beaten around the ears with -- not to mention not being able to get over speed humps cleanly.

Steve

 

[otispunkmeyer]

What did they make up?

nothing people are saying they quoted rear wheel horse power then passed it off as fly wheel hp. obviously wheel hp is less than fly wheel hp and therefore TG represented ford in a bad light, ie ford claim 500, TG say 447

what i was saying is 447 was the calculated/theoretical fly wheel hp that the machine or the technicians could of easily calculated on the spot. so TG did quote figure as fly wheel hp, becuase that was the fly hp after back calculating.

what i then did was give numerous plausible reasons why the car was roughly 50bhp down from the spec sheet.

i dont care that it was 50hp down, i care that people are basically jumping straight into the TG is wrong again band wagon without giving it any thought, such as realising rolling road machines can give a good estimate of fly wheel HP

 

[otispunkmeyer]

it's actually not an easy task. drivetrain loss is different for all cars, it depends on a lot of things, you can't just add in some arbitrary % and get the real number, the engine HP needs to be measured on an engine brake dyno.

strangly enough, the last time top gear used the rolling road they talked about drivetrain loss and how hp at the crank and HP at the wheels are different, but not this time. I don't really care because the GT 500 is only half a car anyway, I'd much rather have a Roush.

also, the US uses SAE HP not BHP.

i know its not that easy to do on the spot, but with a computer and the correct software it shouldnt be too bad. and letting the car coast with clutch pressed in (not in nuetral, it needs to be in gear still) seems like a decent round about way to figure out the loses.

im sure the machine can detect spin down rate, resistance, torques or whatever as the car is basically slowing down disengaged from the engine. the rolling road should be able to detect the amount of power needed to turn the drive train and gear box, and with some clever maths work out a decent estimate.(obviously only in one gear mind)

now obviously, you take it with some salt, because it is just an estimate and the software that works it out is only as good as the programmer and the useful equations wont be cock on either. yes if you want the true reading you have to get an engine dyno.