Any excellent handling front-wheel drive cars?

Again, not saying there aren't fast FWD cars. But RWD cars are much, much better. Trickier to drive and scarier when you are going fast, but better.
That is not always the case. With a FWD you don't have to worry about oversteering on corner exit. You can start powering out soon as the front wheels are pointed in the right direction and as long as there is traction the car will be travelling in to the right direction. No need to worry about oversteering and if you understeer on the exit atleast you are almost going to the right direction anyway. Overall FWD is more stable, so you can put more power to the ground without worrying about spinning. Lets say under 300hp and proper tyres the cars are pretty even, FWD maybe even on the lead because of the easiness.

Here is a FWD vs RWD comparasion with nearly identical cars: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/test1.htm
 
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You cannot put power down and corner all at the same time. Tires can only do so much, and with a given amount of power to put down, a RWD car will always be able to exit faster than an equivalent FWD car, which will simply run out of traction earlier. If a tire has 100% to give, it can do 100% cornering in a RWD car, but in a FWD car it will have to use some percentage of that traction to accelerate, meaning it cannot coerner as hard.
What because the front wheels are the only ones involved in cornering??? :?
The rear wheels also have to produce forces that keep the car going round the corner. The reason why fwd cars have problems putting the power down is because under acceleration the weight goes to the back, thereby reducing the vertical load on the front wheels. Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_forces

Go to a racetrack where you can really drop the hammer and you will always find yourself running slower in the FWD machine. If you are getting power on oversteer, you just have a poorly set up car. There's no excuse for a FWD car to oversteer on the exit of a corner if it is properly set up and not pitched in hard (which will be slower, btw).

I was at a trackday on the Salzburgring 2 weeks ago, and there were two bmw E30s that were slightly more powerful than my mini, but so much slower in and out of the corners that they kept getting in my way in a really annoying manner... this had nothing to do with me being a better or more experienced driver, but with the fact that the handling of my car was much less critical in the two key areas of the track, because properly set up fwd cars are simply a lot easier to drive. A fwd car won?t suddenly kick out the back when you screw up downshifting/rev-matching in the braking zone, it also won?t kick out the back if you?re timing of putting the power back on was too optimistic, and when it does decide to oversteer you just press the gas all the way and steer to regain control.

Proper, maybe, but certainly not "excellent." No car that's FWD can be termed excellent since you cannot throttle steer it if need be. If you want to call that "excellent" then you need another term that's better than excellent for RWD cars.
are you kidding me? driving properly fast around a racetrack isn?t about throttle steering and driving round corners sideways, it?s about reaching the limits of the amount of grip that each of your tires can produce, in order to carry as much speed as possible around the corner. If the back is sliding and the front isn?t, then you?re only using half of the available maximum grip.

RWD doesn?t really become superior to FWD until you?ve reached somewhere between 200 and 300 horsepower, depending on conditions, tires, etc.... Have you ever watched a wtcc race? These cars are just around that borderline of power output, yet strangely the only place where the RWD cars are significantly superior to their FWD rivals is the standing start (think axle load transfers, and the circle of forces mentioned above)

Of course RWD is the better option if you have a professional driver and you?re building a purebred racecar, and don?t take this personal, but saying that FWD cars are useless for performance driving is just plain ignorant.

Seeing as how Ford Prefect's avatar is a picture of him driving his Mini on the N?rburgring
that?s the Salzburgring:mrgreen:
there are no decent pictures of my car on the Nordschleife, but I?m hoping that some people with proper cameras will be present on the 20th of May @ the ring:D
 
That is not always the case. With a FWD you don't have to worry about oversteering on corner exit.

Well, on the whole they dont, but a front wheel drive car can have snap oversteer on a corner exit if the driver lifts off the gas.
 
What because the front wheels are the only ones involved in cornering??? :?
The rear wheels also have to produce forces that keep the car going round the corner. The reason why fwd cars have problems putting the power down is because under acceleration the weight goes to the back, thereby reducing the vertical load on the front wheels. Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_forces

Partly, but not entirely. You cannot corner and accelerate as hard. Sorry.

I was at a trackday on the Salzburgring 2 weeks ago, and there were two bmw E30s that were slightly more powerful than my mini, but so much slower in and out of the corners that they kept getting in my way in a really annoying manner... this had nothing to do with me being a better or more experienced driver, but with the fact that the handling of my car was much less critical in the two key areas of the track, because properly set up fwd cars are simply a lot easier to drive.

You sort of contradict yourself there. But yes, we are in agreement that the FWD car is easier to drive. But not as fast at the end.

A fwd car won?t suddenly kick out the back when you screw up downshifting/rev-matching in the braking zone, it also won?t kick out the back if you?re timing of putting the power back on was too optimistic, and when it does decide to oversteer you just press the gas all the way and steer to regain control.

So one should learn to drive! Somehow, we haven't seen F1 cars move to FWD.

are you kidding me? driving properly fast around a racetrack isn?t about throttle steering and driving round corners sideways, it?s about reaching the limits of the amount of grip that each of your tires can produce, in order to carry as much speed as possible around the corner. If the back is sliding and the front isn?t, then you?re only using half of the available maximum grip.

It's called adjustment. You don't have to be drifting to need to correct something. Your options to tighten up a FWD car is to lift -- and is always slower.

RWD doesn?t really become superior to FWD until you?ve reached somewhere between 200 and 300 horsepower, depending on conditions, tires, etc.... Have you ever watched a wtcc race? These cars are just around that borderline of power output, yet strangely the only place where the RWD cars are significantly superior to their FWD rivals is the standing start (think axle load transfers, and the circle of forces mentioned above)

I haven't seen the WTCC; just some of the BTCC stuff that was shown in the States. In that series, the RWD cars were not being campaigned by competitive teams, so it's a poor comparison.

Of course RWD is the better option if you have a professional driver and you?re building a purebred racecar, and don?t take this personal, but saying that FWD cars are useless for performance driving is just plain ignorant.

But they aren't excellent. RWD remains superior. And don't take this personally, but trying to wordsmith around reality is massively ignorant.

Steve
 
So one should learn to drive!
Ask any racer, any real racer. Consistency matters a lot in a race. So a more stable car is always better. A nervous car slows you down. That's why a race car is usually set up to have bit of understeer.
 
RWD cars may handle better, but thats not the point of this topic. There are good handling FWD cars out there. Ever been in a the new Mini?
 
Partly, but not entirely. You cannot corner and accelerate as hard. Sorry.
roight...

You sort of contradict yourself there. But yes, we are in agreement that the FWD car is easier to drive. But not as fast at the end.
not really... these two e30s were slower than my mini one even though they had sports tires, and more power...

So one should learn to drive! Somehow, we haven't seen F1 cars move to FWD.
:lol:

Your options to tighten up a FWD car is to lift -- and is always slower.
unless you have massive power reserves and really know how to drive, you?ll be lifting to tighten it up no matter which wheel the power is going to :lol:

I haven't seen the WTCC; just some of the BTCC stuff that was shown in the States. In that series, the RWD cars were not being campaigned by competitive teams, so it's a poor comparison.
I?d say that BMW motorsport is quite competitive... :rolleyes:


But they aren't excellent. RWD remains superior. And don't take this personally, but trying to wordsmith around reality is massively ignorant.

Steve
let?s agree to disagree, I could go on and on about why you?re wrong, and arosamike has already made some really good points as well, but in the end I suppose you?re not really willing to argue, as you appear to know everything there is to know anyway...

cheers,
Alex
 
who cares whats fastest, we all know RWD is usually alot funner. now ill take a original mini over many many many RWD cars anyday. but not over a nicely moded miata though :)
 
I would say VW makes some really great FWD cars
 
Classically the JDM Integra Type Rs, both DC2 and DC5 have been touted as FWD cars with RWD handling characteristics

the-2001-integra-type-r.jpg
 
that?s the Salzburgring:mrgreen:
there are no decent pictures of my car on the Nordschleife, but I?m hoping that some people with proper cameras will be present on the 20th of May @ the ring:D

Hehe, oops. I guess I should have just said "'ring" instead, huh? :blush:
 
My last car was one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have ever driven (And that would be a huge list)

I took this picture one month before it was destroyed
p5contest03web.jpg
 
Suzuki Swift Sport: I own one and it's good stuff

Integra typeR: Said to be the best FWD handler, if not best FWD overall

Mini Cooper & cooper S: Both old & new, superb handling

Peugeot's cars from the 80-90's: INCREDIBLE! Seriously, even a bread&butter 306 can give you massive ammounts of grip, provided you spend some money on decent tyres. Not to talk about rally, GTI and TI16 series..

Renault clio sport: whichever the generation, rally-honed handling. When it comes to small FWD sports cars Renault knows the business.
 
I'm sorry but am I the only one who things the op choice of words sucks? I'm one to criticize right? Yea I know.

My negative 5 cents:

That was your surprise of the year? Really?
 
Others may think another car is better because of whatever characteristics but in the end, it all comes down to how much you like it.

Grow some brass ones and make a statement.

FWD are agile and quick. But I would hesitate to characterize them true sporting automobiles unless of course on a "race track". Truth of the matter, if you are pushing the limits of a FWD on the street, frankly you shouldn't be on the street.

Perhaps its an overlooked, not admitted insecurity put forth by some FWD enthusiasts that prompt a question like which FWD car handles the best and statements like, oh this FWD pulls more lat G than that RWD or this slalom speed is faster than.. get your head out of the stats nerd and drive some cars.

A sexy RWD GT car just feels right on the streets for frontin', flashing and just plain motoring around.
 
A little rare, but I really enjoy my '86 Celica GTS's handling. It's far better than the '88 ST I had, not to mention the Grand Ams i've owned (although the GTS isnt as fast as the Quad4 Grand Am I owned). It doesn't understeer until I really push it, better tires would make a difference, that and some new struts and bushings lol. It's very nimble, but I do miss my RWD cars.
 
I can't belive anybody has said this: Alfa Romeo Sud 1200 Ti. Best FWD ever. Period. Deal with it.

Still being a Sud, it will rust and fall to bits in 30 seconds flat, but oh its a fun 30 seconds....
 
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