My trans is getting replaced, possible cause of shifting into first while moving?

Spice_Rack

Active Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
188
Location
Boise, Idaho - USA
Car(s)
2004 Nissan 350Z Roadster, 1983 Mazda RX-7 GS
After reading that thread about frequent shifting with a manual possibly causing excessive wear, that got me thinking. I have a 2006 Hyundai Tiburon SE with a six speed manual box, and the entire transmission is going to be replaced, uhhh, tomorrow... by my dealership. The car has 17,600 miles on it and I havent had a single problem with it, or the transmission. The reason its being replaced is, according to my dealer, it has a small leak that they couldnt find the source of so they simply opted to replace it (luckly at no charge to me since its under warranty).

However, I'm still curious as to why. I've checked the spot in my garage where I park my car and there is a small bit of what appears to be oil from where the trans would be, but its not very much at all. I really don't see why the entire thing needs replaced. But hey, who am I to complain since its under warranty?

But after reading that thread i'm starting to wonder if maybe I was partly responsible for this. I drive my car hard at times, I autocross it (for those that dont know its basically a small road course setup with cones in a parking lot), and I do shift into first gear pretty much 90% of the time where I'm going to a complete stop, or <10 MPH. I will, probably 80% of the time rev the engine up to around 2000 RPM all the way up to 3500 RPM depending on what speed I'm traveling at while i'm slowing down. This is essentially the heel/toe manuevor. There has never been any excessive resistance, and never any grinding noise. It's always worked fine and i've never had a problem with it... But there seems to be the impression around here that doing this on a manual transmission is bad and will cause excessive wear.

So basically I wanna know if this is very true. So can anyone, with some technical knowledge answer my question?
 
Although auto-X can be hard on a car, I really doubt anything you did caused any problems, unless you grabbed a wrong gear or something like that. The way synchros and things in a transmission work, it shouldn't matter whether you're moving or not when you shift into first (or any other gear except reverse for that matter). Unless you've got some weird old transmission with no synchros and straight-cut gears (trust me, you don't) the whole "don't shift into first if you're moving" thing is an old-wives' tale and a load of BS. Simple as that. It is true that shifting more will wear things out faster, but if you have to shift what are you going to do? If you have to shift, you're going to shift. It's as simple as that. (Besides, you'll probably have to replace several clutches before any gears crap out.)

I don't know why they'd replace the whole thing for a little leak, but since it's under warranty, why not?

BTW, how's the auto-x scene up in Boise? The SCCA is pretty active in Northern Utah, but I don't have a car for it.
 
I can't shift into first while moving above 5mph or else it grinds, so I think it depends on the car.
 
in my old RX8 I did it all the time (lived in a small town with VERY slow moving traffic down main street) and had zero problems whatsoever.
 
73GMCSprint: Last year I believe I accidentally went into 1st insetad of 3rd during autocross. I was of course at the top of 2nd before I did it, so I ended up going into 1st at around 55 MPH, which maxes around 32 MPH or so... But I noticed it immediately (wheels locked up) so I put the clutch back in, probably in around 500 ms. (half a second). After that I got the correct gear and kept going. I never had any problems, no odd noises, feels, or grinding. Worked perfectly fine, and has even up until now. So thats possible that caused it.... I certainly hope not though.

As for Autocross in Boise, there is plenty of people (usually around 90-120 drivers each time). But, our courses are rather ghetto and bias depending on who sets them up. Its hard to learn the track as they use fewer cones than most auto-x and the course usually looks like a smattering of cones. Its quite frequent someone goes off course due to this lack of 'user-friendliness'. But once you get a grip on how it all works you are usually okay. Just gotta walk the course a couple times before running and take it easy the first go.


I've got video of nearly all my autocross runs here if you wanna look: http://www.megabytemike.com/Tibby/Autocross Pics & Vids/

I'd prefer you look at the more recent autocross events as my first were not very good. Hey, I was still (and still am) learning... :)



poptya: My friend has a 2007 RX-8, I dont think he revs the engine at all while going into first while moving. I'll have to ask him next time... I notice you said 'old' RX-8, so I'm assuming you don't own it anymore. I'm thinking of the overall life of the trans, no symptoms of this may show up 10K miles into the life of the car... or even 50K, but at some point I can't help thinking it might start having problems... But it's hard to prove anything like this.
 
73GMCSprint: Last year I believe I accidentally went into 1st insetad of 3rd during autocross. I was of course at the top of 2nd before I did it, so I ended up going into 1st at around 55 MPH, which maxes around 32 MPH or so... But I noticed it immediately (wheels locked up) so I put the clutch back in, probably in around 500 ms. (half a second). After that I got the correct gear and kept going. I never had any problems, no odd noises, feels, or grinding. Worked perfectly fine, and has even up until now. So thats possible that caused it.... I certainly hope not though.

If anything that over-rev would cause noticable engine damage (bent or floated valve), but if you've been driving fine since then there should be no reason to worry. I did the same thing twice in my car, I mis-shifted going into third instead of fifth and second instead of fourth. Still working :lol:
 
Well I've got some news from my dealership today, and needless to say, this statement should be followed by a well-flowing series of expletives.

It seems the clutch in the car is worn and should be replaced. Now I suspected this might be a problem before I had even bought the car during my research. Apparently the slave cylinder valve spring will create a slight delay when shifting gears and letting the clutch out quickly, which over time causes wear on the clutch. This isn't a problem if you dont drive it, like... well, a sports car. There is even, in fact a class-action lawsuit against Hyundai for their Tiburon model with premature clutch failures which is believed to be caused by this valve spring...

Regardless of all these technicalities, they will not replace my clutch free of charge. In fact they want to replace my flywheel as well, for some reason. Total, this will cost me.... wait for it.... $1,400 or so. The only bit of luck in this is since the trans is getting replaced under warranty, the clutch replacement will only have ~30 min of labor charged.

In light of this i've spoken to a friend of my mothers who is considered to be an honest mechanic who also drag races cars. He is saying it would probably be best to replace the clutch now with the OEM parts, but have the dealership just turn or sand down the flywheel instead of replacing it. This should save me a great deal of money, but its still gonna cost.

So... anyone have any comments, suggestions, ideas? Does this sound like a good idea?
 
That sounds like a better option to me. I don't see any reason at all to replace the flywheel, unless it's cracked or something crazy like that.
 
I looked at it myself... only thing I saw was the same hot spots I saw on the clutch.
 
The initial small leak was probably caused due to a metallurgical flaw in the casing somewhere. It happens on modern transmissions - it's just the nature of making thin transmission casings out of aluminum. Occasionally you'll get a microfracture or an area where the aluminum seems to be "porous" and it just leaks. This is not visible to the human eye, but it does mean there's a weak spot in the case and it should be replaced.

If the flywheel is heavily grooved or has weird tempering (spots of color in the metal) you should replace it. Otherwise, it should be resurfaced (the proper term) and returned to service, unless there's something weird about the Tib's flywheel.

And yes, while the clutch and related items are considered wear items and not covered under anyone's warranty, 17K is a pretty short life for the clutch. I'd complain to Hyundai corporate, mention the lawsuit, and see if they'll go halves on the clutch.

I would not, however, rev-match and downshift in the course of normal driving. That *does* half the life of the clutch over time, and as you've discovered, clutch replacement isn't cheap. Brake pads, on the other hand, are, and they're more effective than downshifting and using engine braking. Which would you rather put the wear on? Save the Le Mans downshifts for the track or for the occasional spirited drive, not the regular commute.
 
Well i've gone down to the dealership to speak with the mechanics and take some pics. The flywheel is a dual viscus setup, so they cannot resurface it because the piece of rubber between the two pieces. I think, that with the proper equipment it could be done, but they can't and won't.

Here are some pics of the parts...

clutch+pressureplate.jpg


flywheel-02.jpg


flywheel-01.jpg





The cost of the flywheel is $980 so i've decided to not do that. I've been told there might be a little chatter when starting off in first gear but thats it... I think its worth the risk of trying to save a big chunk of change. The clutch disk is only $118 and the pressure plate $138.

So after the clutch and pressure plate are replaced, I'll have to pay about $370, thats including the cost of labor. The labor isn't much since the transmission is getting replaced under warranty that saves a lot of the time needed for the clutch replacement.


So I should get it back by the end of the day today since they have the parts in stock.
 
I'd still call Hyundai customer service and see if they'd split the full bill with you, and then replace the flywheel under those conditions. That flywheel doesn't look very good - but it could be the pictures.
 
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Well time is not a luxury so i've already made the decision. The flywheel is not getting replaced. Maybe if it didn't cost $980 it'd be easier but I simply don't have the money.

I seriously doubt I can get Hyundai to go halvsies on the clutch replacement, but I can try... I might try joining in on this class action lawsuit against them.

This is needless to say very frustrating. But I suppose its better than the thing breaking down on me.
 
Your car's transmission is the same one Nissan uses for the Sentra SER SPEC-V / Maxima / Altima, and they rarely go bad, and I mean RARELY; in fact they are made to handle 300 pounds or more of torque. They can take a beating and still ask for more.

The clutch parts on the other hand, looks like they have been aged! What do you do to this poor car? :blink: The flywheel is junk, look again at the picture; you can see on the inside of the surface area that the metal is blue? That is from excessive heat. This flywheel is now heat tempered, and no machine shop is going to resurface it because they will break off resurfacing bits in an attempt to do so.

So as right now, the flywheel can do it's job, but it's days are numbered. And you will have to pay $XXX to get at that flywheel again, so you are not saving $980, you are going to lose $980 sooner than later PLUS pay for the labor again.

I suggest you get whatever problems fixed, and shitbird this car now, because from looking at the way you drive your car via the pictures posted, you have absolutely no mechanical sympathy for it, and it will cost you plenty.

Harsh words? Yep. On the opposite end, I know of a person who Autocrosses their 2002 WRX and still has the original clutch parts.
 
I dunno if you consider a small leak 'bad', and not to mention the fact that the trans felt perfectly fine and never seemed to give me a problem. However, its been replaced under warranty so none of that matters now (but that doesnt leave it superfluous of discussion).

As for the parts... I have no experience working on cars so I wouldn't be able to judge how bad the parts look. With the cost of that flywheel and the fact it didn't look terrible (to me) I opted to leave it in. From what I understand is that the clutch is only used when the clutch makes contact with it, so it may only cause a bit of juttering during acceleration while moving the clutch pedal out and giving the car throttle... so thats why I chose to leave it.

I've got the car back tonight, and the clutch feels fine... There is no chattering or anything. No noises, hesitation, nothing... Feels good. However that doesnt mean 2 months down the road it could start having those symptoms, and with my driving style that may accelerate the process. Then again it may never happen in a short amount of time.

As for the way I drive, which yes, judging by my pics I do drive it hard. However, I am nice to the car most of the time and, when I race it a bit I feel I do it properly. Of course most people may be cocky and think they are racing their cars 'properly'. However this is all opinion, my opinion, and your opinion on how you think my driving it will cause excessive damage. My (limited) mechanical knowledge tells me I will only cause wear on that clutch when I launch the car for a quick start, power/quick shift when going WOT, or if my foot simply doesnt regulate the clutch/throttle properly and causes slippage or i'm in too high a gear. As for the launching and power shifting, removal of that valve spring which is likely causing part of this slippage may help reduce the wear on my clutch, a lot. And by that token the flywheel shouldn't really get any more wear either. Then again that may not help at all, you may be right, you may be wrong... but I love my car and probably will not be selling it unless I can afford to get something I want more. I'm just hoping that I'm right and it'll last for a good while.

It's gonna suck though if your right and the flywheel gets much worse and I end up having to replace it soon. Regardless, whats done is done now... Simply put, the parts may not be designed to handle my type of driving, or that valve spring is causing most of this havok and should be removed. If after removing the spring and come X amount of months later I run into this again, I obviously will either have to just sell the car, pay loads of cash for flywheel replacement and labor, or even worse that plus a new clutch... or replace it with some (considered to be) tougher and higher quality aftermarker parts to replace the stock stuff.

We'll see what happens... I'm hoping i'm right and i'm not about to fall into the depths of hell with this...

Please do reply jayhawk, i'd like to know what you think about what i've said. I really do appreciate your harshness, even though it does make me think that you could very well be right and i'm about to walk into a load of hurt.
 
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lmao... *sigh* I was really hoping no one would see that. That's why I didnt want anyone to look at my VERY FIRST TIME!!!

Needless to say, I went BALLS OUT. And I admit it was very stupid, I made a complete fool of myself. However it was VERY fun... Also, that right tire I found out was a bit low on air pressure... and this was on stock suspension. And don't forget the stupid driver...
 
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This pic I like better... :dance:

lol@wipers.jpg


Ignore the wipers up... the ONLY time I hit the wipers like a freaking n00b is when my friend snapped that pic. Regardless... modified suspension and I have a lot more experience under my belt.
And that's not excessive wheelspin in the pic, thats just dust from the pavement and a bit of rubber too I'll bet.
 
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The SCCA is pretty active in Northern Utah, but I don't have a car for it.

HAH! Common dude! Put some massive sway bars and some suspention upgrades in that thing and you'll have quite the amazing auto-X car... I'd love to have an auto-X Sprint/El Camino/Callabero
 
After seeing your pics, that flywheel does look pretty bad. I don't really know what to say though, because $980 seems really steep to me. Since you've already got the car back, I think I'd just keep driving it for now and see what happens. Don't know what else you could do at this point?

@ JipJopJones The Sprint already has huge swaybars and it does handle pretty good, but it's just so light in the rear end. I'm already fighting for traction. Maybe I should just give it a try anyway. I've actually always wanted to....
 
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