Rally - Why a Navigator?

Navigators in the early days also helped fix the car (duties of a mechanic) when it broke and also changed the tyres when needed - remember as was said it was much more like a Gumball in the early days
 
WiljushkA said:
@Necxo
loeb's car looks quite in line from inside, but from outside you can see he still uses oversteer (i was just watching him drifting heavily on tarmac, even where drifting is less apparent), also anti-lag isnt almigthy and you still benefit from left foot braking.

and there is no "more drift/less drift" driving, you drift as much as you need to make the corner. there is less apparent oversteer today because there is more grip than before, but there still is oversteer. and yes, drifting can be scrubbing off speed, and they use it to that extent when they are overspeeding into the corner.

that argument about loeb being fastest because of no-drift stule is invalid, because every wrc driver is a professional and if they saw that his style is faster it would be their obligation to change their styles accordingly in order to make their cars as fast as possible. and there are a lot more parameters to success in rallying than something that simple...you could also say that because there is no drift in lower echelons of rallying, that they are faster and better drivers, but we all know that they are not...
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I disagree (not saying you are wrong, but I still disagree). Loeb still oversteers, of course he does, its impossible not to on slippery surfaces but he is a LOT neater than any other driver, even Gronholm. Left foot braking isn't used to maintain boost anymore, it is used for balance.

If there is no "more drift/less drift" anymore why do drivers attack the same corner in completely different ways? I stand by my statement about styles as well. Most people "flick" the car into the corner as strange as it sounds.....a slightly unsettled oversteering car is easier to control than a neutral to understeering car if something unexpected happens. But whenever you are sliding you are losing time. Gronholm is smoother and neater than Hirvonen and Mikko is unable to touch him speed wise.
 
You do need the co-driver nowadays as much as in the past.
At speeds of 100mph and above, it`s absolutely impossible to remember a 10Mile stage and all the obstacles on it properly.
It`s not just a thing of speed, but a thing of safety as well. If you miss a corner on a f1 circuit, you end up in the sand trap. If you miss it on a rally, you end up in a tree. For example, if there`s a left/right chicane in a forest, you may not see the second part of it until it`s too late. But the co-driver informs you about it at least one curve ahead so you can prepare the speeed and the angle for it. So you can concentrate on your car and your driving. It`s the most fascinating thing for me that these people trust each other absolutely 100%. The driver believes in the data he`s given just before and the co believes that the driver will get him around the corner well.

I would say it`s also much better if you`re involved in an accident. Even today the medicals can`t get to all parts of a rally stage as fast as you want. So it might be good if you can help each other, just in case. And if another racer appears at the scene, he probably can do much more for them with the help of his co-driver as he could do alone.
 
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i remember there was a great segment about navigators in that discovery channel's documentary about subaru rally team, i think it was in the second episode, i was quite surprised to see how much work navigator had making the pacenotes, and to see the amount of thrust and friendship between the driver and co-driver.

@Necx
ok, we agree to disagree :)
 
Lambos r4ever said:
I have a rally question as well, why do they drift around corners? isn't that just scrubbing off speed?
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The fastest way around a racetrack is not to drift, but once grip levels go below a certain point, you have to drift, as drifting becomes the fastest way. If a rally driver was too keep full grip on a rally stage, the speed would be very low, and the car would be understeering. What they do is drift, so they maintain the speed, and because they havfe 4x4 it's not like they're slowing down too much.
You can even see this in F1. When the circuit is dry, the slightest drift causes the driver to lose time. But when it's wet, and the drivers are pushing, their cars are always sliding a bit, and they have to make tiny adjustments all the time. When it's wet, a neat lap stops being a fast lap.
 
Lambos r4ever said:
I have a rally question as well, why do they drift around corners? isn't that just scrubbing off speed?
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I remember reading somewhere that powersliding around a corner in a rally car increases the margin of error for that corner, and it helps slow the car without using the brakes (which can lock up, and that means little braking). I may not remember it correctly, and the article itself may be wrong, but it's plausible.
 
Redoak said:
What i want to know for example is, how it got started, why it was made this way, who though about it first...

Thanks for the help
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I'm no expert on these things, but I bet somebody got lost and said "Never again...".
 
@American TG Man
actually its better to brake with locking the wheels on loose surfaces, especially snow, because of soil acumulation on the tires helps with braking, causing the tires to "dig in". actually most articles about abs say that it performs bad on such surfaces, because it constantly keeps the wheels rolling, not alowing wheels to penetrate through the rubble and other junk to the surface that actually grips :) this of course does not apply on tarmac rallys, but they are few in wrc for example.

actually found some quotes, taken from wiki article (not the best source, but there is quite a good explanation, and links for facts):
In gravel and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly.
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On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on detecting individual wheels skidding).
...
But part of the answer is that on HEAVY snow, locked wheels can be useful because they gather up a "wedge" of snow which helps to slow the vehicle. ABS allows this wedge to clear every time the wheels are unlocked. The same can apply on sand in some conditions.
...
A June 1999 NHTSA study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 22 percent
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lots of abs and wheel locking info to be found in here:
http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/ts/text/ch05.htm
 
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HondaF1 said:
Yeah, I know. I was joking.
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:lol: It looks like you need to put a joke warning up when posting jokes. Not many seem to understand it. For the record I can tell when you are joking. :)
 
Its our Aussieness!!
 
Rayc said:
You do need the co-driver nowadays as much as in the past.
At speeds of 100mph and above, it`s absolutely impossible to remember a 10Mile stage and all the obstacles on it properly.
It`s not just a thing of speed, but a thing of safety as well. If you miss a corner on a f1 circuit, you end up in the sand trap. If you miss it on a rally, you end up in a tree. For example, if there`s a left/right chicane in a forest, you may not see the second part of it until it`s too late. But the co-driver informs you about it at least one curve ahead so you can prepare the speeed and the angle for it. So you can concentrate on your car and your driving. It`s the most fascinating thing for me that these people trust each other absolutely 100%. The driver believes in the data he`s given just before and the co believes that the driver will get him around the corner well.

I would say it`s also much better if you`re involved in an accident. Even today the medicals can`t get to all parts of a rally stage as fast as you want. So it might be good if you can help each other, just in case. And if another racer appears at the scene, he probably can do much more for them with the help of his co-driver as he could do alone.
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Personally, I don't consider it a safety thing. You could even think of it other way round, as without co-drivers the speeds would be much slower as you wouldn't know what's behind each corner. Most club level rallies (at least here in Finland) are done without pace notes, with only road books that don't really do much more than tell you which way to turn in the intersections.

Redoak said:
Ultimately, it seems the "reason" for the navigator directly came from the 1900s then, when they were very useful for long stretches of navigation, motivation, and i suspect, secondary drivers...(?!). So technically, there are no real reason for Navigators "today", but their job was kept and brought up to date. Cool stuff.
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I think it's an oversight to say there's no 'real reason' for co-drivers these days, but the term 'navigator' is a bit off. They still do navigate, though not as much with maps as with pace notes on the stage and road books off it, and among that do a world of other stuff as well. While the driver's job is to drive the car the co-driver is responsible for pretty much everything else, like timing papers and for being in the right place at the right time. The saying goes, a good co-driver does not win the event for a driver but a bad one can certainly lose it.
 
Necx0 said:
Walter Rohrl always had a more understeer based style as well.....and he was the fastest rally driver ever.
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Fastest rally driver ever..you've found this "fact" out how? Got an official list of fastest rally drivers ever?

Necx0 said:
]
Most people "flick" the car into the corner as strange as it sounds.....a slightly unsettled oversteering car is easier to control than a neutral to understeering car if something unexpected happens. But whenever you are sliding you are losing time.
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You serious? Rally drivers only slide the car because it's easier to control that way? Of course sliding is often the fastest way around a bend, especially on loose surfaces where you just don't have enough grip to use a normal racing line.
 
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