Car features as a subscription service are coming.

[Matt2000]

Yes. There is a reasoned argument to be done there and BMW are not the only manufacturer doing it. The idea being that you just make the one engine and sell it in different stages of tune saves on development, engineering, manufacturing, and, depending on location, regulation costs.

Yeah it makes sense to a certain extent, we're waaaaay past cars being fixed configurations unless you break out the sockets and hammers.

100% fuck microtransactions, definitely wouldn't support those and they would indeed be dangerous if people drove without high beams or heating or something. Paying considerably less than a lifetime cost for a year of a feature I was going to have on the car anyway, I could live with.

Games were mentioned and they're software, here's my angle. I paid £3.99 to for the Microsoft Game Pass so I could play The Outer Worlds for a month. I've done with it now so I'll cancel. If I want the game again, I'll pay for a month. I'll never pay the full price, which is almost a shame because that game is worth the money and doesn't have microtransactions.

 

[Blind_Io]

I understand if you want to keep a car for a long time that you would be unhappy with paying for the service for all those years, you may well be paying more than the fixed price would be. Or you may not. You would expect that at this point where ICE is frankly software only that it is kept up to date and continues to be supported (like the Adobe software I pay for). However, Joe Public just don't buy cars to keep now, for a 4 year leaser you could end up spending less on extra features than ticking the box and paying a lump sum.

Hardware wise, it's hard to say but who honestly replaces ICE and things like heated seats and control modules with aftermarket on new cars now? It's impossible in most cases and as I've said before most cars have all the hardware installed. For this specifically, I think the tractor argument is irrelevant as that's not what they're talking about and cars just don't compare to the infinitely complex automated systems in farm machinery. I'll concede that it could be a slippery slope but I'm struggling to think of instances where changing parts fit in with this.

I do wonder how this would affect the price of used cars though, when every car is the same equipment-wise depending on what you pay for as the new owner.
Think of this scenario, you're looking for a used generic car - a Golf . You find a nice one but it's currently missing cruise control because the tight arse who bought it didn't pay for it. You currently would have to look elsewhere or pay multiple thousands of currency to have it enabled (assuming the hardware is already installed as mentioned earlier), ignoring the option of 'hacking' because in a car produced today this could already come back to bite you with the dealer. We're either past the point of easy hacking or on the edge of it.

I'm not saying it's good to be going this way, but it certainly could benefit you personally.



What's your opinion on BMW using the same engine but with different tunes at different price points? They've been doing this for years, in any new car you're already carrying around bits that are turned off.

A phone is a perfect example of why this is a bad idea. My phones are perfectly fine hardware-wise, but they slow down and eventually become unusable due to all the updates pushed out for the OS, the old hardware just can't keep up. Eventually the phone is no longer supported, apps and the OS cease to function as they were intended and I have to replace the phone just to get into the next product cycle of support.

Say goodbye to classic cars of the future and present day tuner culture.

How are cars fundamentally different than farm equipment? Farm equipment can be more automated? We have cars that can practically drive and navigate themselves in complex urban environments, not just lay out a plow pattern in an open field or hold position with a hopper truck. They are not fundamentally dissimilar and what we've seen happen in the farming industry that moved to this exact model of service is frighting - even a non-farmer like me is aware of this problem.

I am perfectly fine looking for a car that has the features I want and making purchasing choices based on those feature - if I own them. The flip side is that I don't own them, which means I don't really own my car, I'm just licensed to use it (and those extra buttons) at the whim of the manufacturer. This same attitude has been creeping into all industries that used to be hardware-only and now use computers and software to manage that hardware; is anti-consumer and dangerous as we slowly have our ownership of our property eroded into licensed use.

BMW is fine, I'm not paying a subscription fee to have more power out of my engine, it is the way I bought it and if I want to tinker with it, flash the ECU or even replace it with an aftermarket unit to get a better tune and engine management, I'm free to do so. Under a licensed use scheme, BMW could look at see the non-factory hardware or software and simply turn off the car, refuse service, or interfere with resale by not allowing any features they control to be activated. Potentially, they could have an end user license agreement that says I agree to their monitoring and they can revoke my license to use the software if I tamper with it, allowing them to legally wipe all software from the car remotely - no more ECU, infotainment, climate control, lights, ignition - anything, it's all controlled by software.

If you don't think a company would go this far to maintain control of their IP, I have some real estate in Florida to sell you.

 

[gaasc]

Games were mentioned and they're software, here's my angle. I paid £3.99 to for the Microsoft Game Pass so I could play The Outer Worlds for a month. I've done with it now so I'll cancel. If I want the game again, I'll pay for a month. I'll never pay the full price, which is almost a shame because that game is worth the money and doesn't have microtransactions.

I could live without games, I'm not quite sure I could live without air conditioning (14.99/mo. Not available in all areas, subject to availability.)

 

[93Flareside]

I think some of this is getting blown out a bit. You can still spec the car with these options before buying the car, this is only if you change your mind after the fact.

 

[Blind_Io]

I could live without games, I'm not quite sure I could live without air conditioning (14.99/mo. Not available in all areas, subject to availability.)

You could probably live without AC in winter when it's on special at $0.99/mo, but are you willing to pay $60.00/mo in July and August?

 

[GRtak]

I think some of this is getting blown out a bit. You can still spec the car with these options before buying the car, this is only if you change your mind after the fact.

I don't want the high horsepower, will they buy that back? I highly doubt it.

Back to the games for a moment. In the cases I mentioned I bought the games and was not able to play them without internet access. It is different than getting a game service and being aware of what you are getting.

 

[Matt2000]

How are cars fundamentally different than farm equipment? Farm equipment can be more automated? We have cars that can practically drive and navigate themselves in complex urban environments, not just lay out a plow pattern in an open field or hold position with a hopper truck. They are not fundamentally dissimilar and what we've seen happen in the farming industry that moved to this exact model of service is frighting - even a non-farmer like me is aware of this problem.

Tractors are certainly similar, but every other piece of farm machinery has so much more going on regarding automation of systems. Take a harvester for example, the computers are what make them so efficient compared to old ones. There's a bit of a price gap too. I would have to question why farmers are buying these new tractors and such if it has become so bad? It's not like the old tractors have gone away the same as old cars, unless they aren't so similar after all and it's due to how hard they're worked.

Say goodbye to classic cars of the future and present day tuner culture.

I honestly think we're past that point in some respects, it's not like cars are really designed to last now and other than bolt on bits and fart cans I don't see any new cars being tuned at all. Fast cars will always be fast, tuning companies will probably still release cars in conjunction with the manufacturer but I don't see much beyond that.

You could probably live without AC in winter when it's on special at $0.99/mo, but are you willing to pay $60.00/mo in July and August?

I'd hope that the prices are reasonable but that's probably too much to ask.

 

[argatoga]

I wonder how this would work with right-to-repair and related laws? If I can flash my ECU to increase my turbo's boost, could I also buy one to enable whatever feature BMW decided to disable?

 

[GRtak]

I wonder how this would work with right-to-repair and related laws? If I can flash my ECU to increase my turbo's boost, could I also buy one to enable whatever feature BMW decided to disable?

It would fall under the DMCA rules. So far several tractor companies have used the DMCA to keep people from doing some fairly basic repairs. I am sure that BMW would use those same laws(at least in the USofA) to keep you from modifying your vehicle.

 

[D-Fence]

Let me clear up some wrong information here, as there is Jalopnik levels of it.

1. Car manufacturers currently do not add more things than the ones ordered, each wiring harness is tailor made for the specific car and only has the connectors for the ordered spec. This has to do with cost and weight saving, but does create a higher complexity & part numbers in plant.

2. If you flash your ECU, manufacturers can, and will, detect it. If you return a lease car, it will show if the ECU has been modified. Just because it doesn't notify you it doesn't mean the car and company don't know.

3. Tesla went a lazy way of locking their addons, I know of one German manufacturer that actually used the Tesla case to get more funding for a proper way. There won't be any black boxes or hacking with this.

4. The B48 4-cyl Petrol engines are available as 192, 224, 231, 252, 258 and 306hp variants. It's a combination of tune, exhaust, cooling pack and internals. Good luck running the same boost of the 306hp variant on the 192hp engine.

5. You can still spec your car with whatever you want & can afford and it will stay with the car, the subscription service is for you to test options or upgrade your car later once you decide you want something / can afford it

6. Most of the subscription stuff uses things already installed in the car. Adaptive cruise? Uses radar sensor and cameras required by EU law for city emergency braking. Adaptive LED light? Cars come with LED headlights as standard, you reduce variants in plants if you only install one headlight on each car, and the matrix function gets enabled later via software. Drive recorder? That's the EU city cameras again. Lane assist? Cameras again. Exhaust sound design? Uses speakers. I could go on, but in the end, it's a combination of using stuff that's already there and reducing variants in plant, therefore cost saving. It allows people to upgrade a car they bought, and also makes used cars more interesting because you could theoretically spec it like you want after buying it. Fact is, people these days mainly do want the flexibility to have everything as a service, see Uber, Netflix, Car & Bikesharing, Spotify, even leasing cars.

Here, have a nice article from Siemens:
https://blogs.sw.siemens.com/though...ser-look-at-the-business-model-of-the-future/


And let's be brutally honest. The people in this forum (myself included) mostly own rather older speciality cars, we are not the people who exchange their leasing car every three years. Therefore this forum is an echo chamber of "THE GOOD OLD DAYS" "THE CAR INDUSTRY LOST THEIR WAY" "I WILL NEVER BUY A NEW CAR AGAIN (which you never have before anyways)".

So yeah, if the automotive industry wants to survive and compete with people like Tesla, who fully understand that OTA upgrades, payable services etc. are the way to go, they need to adapt and compete. If they don't, they will die.

Right now, we are here:

And now, observe the news who is currently on the way out.

My prediction is that this list will shrink to max. 10 in the next 10 years.

First casualties I predict will be Geely, Mclaren, Subaru, Tata, FCA or Suzuki.

 

[narf]

1. Car manufacturers currently do not add more things than the ones ordered, each wiring harness is tailor made for the specific car and only has the connectors for the ordered spec. This has to do with cost and weight saving, but does create a higher complexity & part numbers in plant.

From a hardware point of view that might be true, from a software / unlock point of view it is not. I could go on the internet right now and add features to my 2er, such as traffic sign recognition. The hardware is there because of other features, likely the ACC or related things.

...I wouldn't be surprised if that feature magically appeared once I return the car, when BMW wants to sell it on...

 

[D-Fence]

I was just talking about hardware. And no, it won't appear, because that would screw with the vehicle order inside BMW . If you sell it to an independent dealer, aka "Fähnchentürke", sure thing. But this stuff also only works on your car because it is not newest gen of connected .

 

[narf]

I was just talking about hardware. And no, it won't appear, because that would screw with the vehicle order inside BMW . If you sell it to an independent dealer, aka "Fähnchentürke", sure thing. But this stuff also only works on your car because it is not newest gen of connected .

I don't sell it, we don't even own it - it's leased from BMW. When they get it back they'll to a service, cleaning, maybe new tyres - why not new features too? Shouldn't cost BMW much to click a button inside BMW's online store to unlock an existing software feature.

 

[D-Fence]

The F20 generation is not capable of doing that. Only way to activate it would be by hacking into it.

 

[narf]

The F20 generation is not capable of doing that. Only way to activate it would be by hacking into it.

When I took delivery last year this in-car store displayed it for purchase - now the entire store is gone seems your people don't want to sell things.

 

[93Flareside]

When I took delivery last year this in-car store displayed it for purchase - now the entire store is gone seems your people don't want to sell things.

View attachment 3557957

Or they're just lonely and want somebody to talk to.

 

[argatoga]

My prediction is that this list will shrink to max. 10 in the next 10 years.

First casualties I predict will be Geely, Mclaren, Subaru, Tata, FCA or Suzuki.

Geely is owned by the CCP (once a company gets big enough they take over), so I don't see them selling their gateway to the West.

Tata Motors isn't going anywhere, India is a huge market and Tata can throw money at their auto division if needed (not to mention Tata has vertical integration advantages).

Mclaren is insignificant. FCA/PSA is too big to fail. Suzuki, Subaru, and Mazda may merge or be eaten by their fellow Japanese auto companies, but that's about it.

 

[D-Fence]

When I took delivery last year this in-car store displayed it for purchase - now the entire store is gone seems your people don't want to sell things.

View attachment 3557957

In car stores have been removed as you still had to confirm charges on your phone or a browser (no credit card data transactions from vehicle to credit card companies due to data protection & IT security). So people got annoyed and confused, now you get it directly on phone/browser.

 

[awdrifter]

I'll install CFW on my car if I buy a car with microtransactions.

 

[Mitchi]

6. Most of the subscription stuff uses things already installed in the car. Adaptive cruise? Uses radar sensor and cameras required by EU law for city emergency braking. Adaptive LED light? Cars come with LED headlights as standard, you reduce variants in plants if you only install one headlight on each car, and the matrix function gets enabled later via software. Drive recorder? That's the EU city cameras again. Lane assist? Cameras again. Exhaust sound design? Uses speakers. I could go on, but in the end, it's a combination of using stuff that's already there and reducing variants in plant, therefore cost saving. It allows people to upgrade a car they bought, and also makes used cars more interesting because you could theoretically spec it like you want after buying it. Fact is, people these days mainly do want the flexibility to have everything as a service, see Uber, Netflix, Car & Bikesharing, Spotify, even leasing cars.

Thank you for this. I feel like this is quite overlooked in this thread so far, no matter on how one stands on this topic.
Seems like manufacturers are not putting any kind of hardware in the car that without an acquired service would be redundant to that very owner - and why would they.

View attachment 3557955


And now, observe the news who is currently on the way out.

My prediction is that this list will shrink to max. 10 in the next 10 years.

First casualties I predict will be Geely, Mclaren, Subaru, Tata, FCA or Suzuki.

I have thought about this, too, and I feel JLR will be the first, AM might save it, and Volvo, I don't know. Would be tough.