Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 41

Thread: Cold starts

  1. #1
    LeVeL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 16th, 2007
    Location
    Boston-ish
    Posts
    11,396
    Car(s)
    ///MX5 & TL & o|||||||o
    Rep Power
    424

    Cold starts

    Late January, 4:45am, 10 degrees outside (-12C). Car's been sitting outside for ten hours. It's facing a 1.5mi trip to the gym where it will be shut off for an hour, then driven the 1.5mi back home and shut off again for an hour, before finally being driven 12mi to work.

    Are these frequent cold starts and short initial drives bad? If so, why? All I can think of is the extra toll on the starter and maybe on the battery; condensation in the oil (how long does that take to burn off?); possibly running rick; not sure if the engine faces extra wear since 1.5mi isn't as short as just backing out of the driveway. What can be done to lessen the stress of doing this daily, year-round?
    Last edited by LeVeL; December 9th, 2016 at 3:19 PM.
    ____________________________
    "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
    Old flickr & New flickr

  2. #2
    GRtak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 6th, 2008
    Location
    Michigan USA
    Age
    47
    Posts
    16,242
    Rep Power
    514
    Yes. There are a few things that are bad about this, but I want to know why running Rick is bad?

    As you point out, the condensation is not good. More importantly, until the engine gets warm, it is not sealing properly. There is a ton of blow by that causes acids to form in the oil. Acid is not a fun trip for the engine.

    Why not ride a bike there? You are already going to work out, so do a bit more there and back.

    Or, drive to get your coffee so the engine has a chance to warm up and get rid of the nasty stuff.
    ____________________________
    "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating" -Boss Tweed

    "No man's life, liberty or happiness are safe while Congress is in session,"- Mark Twain

  3. #3
    avanti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 21st, 2005
    Location
    Milano, Italia
    Posts
    6,334
    Car(s)
    6 cars + 8 motorcycles
    Rep Power
    229
    Jog to the gym, perfect warm up, kill two birds with one stone!

    Your welcome.
    ____________________________
    ||||||||||||||| Ride, Eat, Sleep, Repeat.
    My 1988 Lancia Delta HF Turbo
    My 1991 Volvo 960 Turbo

  4. #4
    LeVeL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 16th, 2007
    Location
    Boston-ish
    Posts
    11,396
    Car(s)
    ///MX5 & TL & o|||||||o
    Rep Power
    424
    Quote Originally Posted by GRtak View Post
    Yes. There are a few things that are bad about this, but I want to know why running Rick is bad?
    Freudian slip


    Quote Originally Posted by GRtak View Post
    As you point out, the condensation is not good. More importantly, until the engine gets warm, it is not sealing properly. There is a ton of blow by that causes acids to form in the oil. Acid is not a fun trip for the engine.
    Won't the engine get rid of the condensation and acids on the longer drive to work?


    Quote Originally Posted by GRtak View Post
    Why not ride a bike there? You are already going to work out, so do a bit more there and back.
    Quote Originally Posted by avanti View Post
    Jog to the gym, perfect warm up, kill two birds with one stone!

    Your welcome.
    I don't really want to run or bike down icy poorly lit roads
    ____________________________
    "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
    Old flickr & New flickr

  5. #5
    avanti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 21st, 2005
    Location
    Milano, Italia
    Posts
    6,334
    Car(s)
    6 cars + 8 motorcycles
    Rep Power
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by LeVeL View Post
    I don't really want to run or bike down icy poorly lit roads


    ____________________________
    ||||||||||||||| Ride, Eat, Sleep, Repeat.
    My 1988 Lancia Delta HF Turbo
    My 1991 Volvo 960 Turbo

  6. #6
    villej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 30th, 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    616
    Car(s)
    '03 and '06 Renault Megane
    Rep Power
    44
    I think one problem with cold start is that the lubricating properties of oil aren't the best if it's cold, if I'm not mistaken. So the engine would need to run and warm up for few seconds for the oil to distribute properly.

    Currently both out cars get cold started and driven for 5-10 minutes at least twice a day for the whole winter. We have solved the situation by just using cheap cars that are nearer the end of their lifespan anyway, cold started or not. Also, I try to drive each car a bit longer once in a few weeks to let the battery charge up properly.
    Last edited by villej; December 9th, 2016 at 9:27 PM.

  7. #7
    93Flareside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 20th, 2009
    Location
    Old crabby people, Illinois
    Age
    25
    Posts
    13,963
    Car(s)
    '04 Ford Mustang GT '87 Mercury Colony Park
    Rep Power
    283
    If you let the car warm up for 30 minutes (or time how long it takes before the temp gauge starts to move) on both sides of your trips, it shouldn't be a problem. Basically, just enough to get the condensation to burn off.
    ____________________________
    1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
    2008 Jeep Patriot company provided - January 2012 - October 2013
    2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
    2011 Jeep Patriot company provided - October 2013 - June 2015
    2012 Jeep Patriot company provided - June 2015 - Present
    1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
    2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adunaphel
    Everyone needs a f*cking timeout here, so this thread is now locked.

  8. #8
    Sgt. Maj. Buzzkill narf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1st, 2008
    Location
    Kiel/Wherever, Germany
    Age
    30
    Posts
    17,630
    Car(s)
    '16 VW The Beetle Cabrio
    Rep Power
    626
    How much extra wear is half an hour of cold idling - quite a slow way of putting heat into your engine - going to cause?
    ____________________________
    Octavia
    Fabia
    Beetle

    [AiR] Skoda drivers are the winners.
    [93Flareside] Why must Germans be perfect in everything?
    [Spectre] I'd buy a $120k Mercedes.

  9. #9
    93Flareside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 20th, 2009
    Location
    Old crabby people, Illinois
    Age
    25
    Posts
    13,963
    Car(s)
    '04 Ford Mustang GT '87 Mercury Colony Park
    Rep Power
    283

    Cold starts

    It's better that way imo to let all the metal warm slowly to avoid shock and possibly crack something. The amount of wear associated is less than what you'd get from immediately taking up the revs and introducing more heat at a faster rate and forcing metal to expand faster.

    I liken it to boilers. You can't put a whole bunch of heat in when it's cold because you'll crack tubes and cause leaks. If you warm it slowly until you either start making steam(on low pressure systems) or are over 110 degrees Fahrenheit(on warm water systems) everything's typically warmed up enough to handle larger amounts of heat. With high pressure steam, if you cannot hold your hand on plumbing caps, then it's ready to roll.
    Last edited by 93Flareside; December 11th, 2016 at 4:46 PM.
    ____________________________
    1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
    2008 Jeep Patriot company provided - January 2012 - October 2013
    2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
    2011 Jeep Patriot company provided - October 2013 - June 2015
    2012 Jeep Patriot company provided - June 2015 - Present
    1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
    2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adunaphel
    Everyone needs a f*cking timeout here, so this thread is now locked.

  10. #10
    Sgt. Maj. Buzzkill narf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1st, 2008
    Location
    Kiel/Wherever, Germany
    Age
    30
    Posts
    17,630
    Car(s)
    '16 VW The Beetle Cabrio
    Rep Power
    626
    Imo you'll run overly rick for way too long, washing oil off your cylinder walls and thereby increasing wear massively. With the low amount of heat generated per revolution when idling, you'll prolong that hard-wearing operation unnecessarily long.


    Someone else's opinion:

    Last edited by narf; December 11th, 2016 at 5:14 PM.
    ____________________________
    Octavia
    Fabia
    Beetle

    [AiR] Skoda drivers are the winners.
    [93Flareside] Why must Germans be perfect in everything?
    [Spectre] I'd buy a $120k Mercedes.

  11. #11
    prizrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2nd, 2007
    Location
    New Amsterdam :)
    Age
    34
    Posts
    17,909
    Car(s)
    11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
    Rep Power
    307

    Cold starts

    Agree with narf here, it's worse to idle while running rich than it is to give it a minute and then drive normally. The only advise I have is to keep the revs low until after the engine warms up enough (usually couple of minutes after you see water temp in the middle)

    Also if your oil is synthetic you shouldn't have too much worry about cold lubrication, those compounds are quite good at staying liquid.
    ____________________________
    ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

  12. #12
    93Flareside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 20th, 2009
    Location
    Old crabby people, Illinois
    Age
    25
    Posts
    13,963
    Car(s)
    '04 Ford Mustang GT '87 Mercury Colony Park
    Rep Power
    283

    Cold starts

    You mean to tell me that the car doesn't use O2 and mass air and temp sensors to ensure that it doesn't run poorly? It just operates on a "good enough" base curve without taking any real world info into consideration when it's cold? I call bullshit.

    Yes, in sure it has a cold start under x degrees starting set up but, it's nothing horrible that would damage anything.

    But, if you're thinking starting a car and immediately going on your way and shutting the car off before it fully warms up is ok, that's your deal. Every single time you start there's microscopic wear before oil can hit everything. There's still residual, much less if it sits for a week and probably none after a month. But, day to day use, there should still be enough oil to not cause catastrophic wear.

    We go through this every year. Basically it comes down to, do what you want. It ain't my car.
    Last edited by 93Flareside; December 11th, 2016 at 5:47 PM.
    ____________________________
    1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
    2008 Jeep Patriot company provided - January 2012 - October 2013
    2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
    2011 Jeep Patriot company provided - October 2013 - June 2015
    2012 Jeep Patriot company provided - June 2015 - Present
    1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
    2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adunaphel
    Everyone needs a f*cking timeout here, so this thread is now locked.

  13. #13
    GRtak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 6th, 2008
    Location
    Michigan USA
    Age
    47
    Posts
    16,242
    Rep Power
    514
    The O2 senesors need to be about 600F before they star to work properly. The MAF sensor will help get the fuel ratio close, but the O2 are the lie detector to them.


    On the acids. The way I was taught, once the acids are there, they don't go away.
    ____________________________
    "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating" -Boss Tweed

    "No man's life, liberty or happiness are safe while Congress is in session,"- Mark Twain

  14. #14
    93Flareside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 20th, 2009
    Location
    Old crabby people, Illinois
    Age
    25
    Posts
    13,963
    Car(s)
    '04 Ford Mustang GT '87 Mercury Colony Park
    Rep Power
    283

    Cold starts

    Then all of my cars should have had major blow by and consume stupid amounts of oil. So far, that's not happened. If you don't either, then I guess we're both right. Also, how long do you think it takes for 600F to hit the O2 sensor that are how close again to the headers? It doesn't take that long for them to start reporting data.


    Furthermore, multi-wire (over 2) are heated O2 sensors so that they can heat up as quick as possible for the ECU to receive data.
    Last edited by 93Flareside; December 11th, 2016 at 5:52 PM.
    ____________________________
    1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
    2008 Jeep Patriot company provided - January 2012 - October 2013
    2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
    2011 Jeep Patriot company provided - October 2013 - June 2015
    2012 Jeep Patriot company provided - June 2015 - Present
    1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
    2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adunaphel
    Everyone needs a f*cking timeout here, so this thread is now locked.

  15. #15
    prizrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2nd, 2007
    Location
    New Amsterdam :)
    Age
    34
    Posts
    17,909
    Car(s)
    11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
    Rep Power
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by 93Flareside View Post
    You mean to tell me that the car doesn't use O2 and mass air and temp sensors to ensure that it doesn't run poorly? It just operates on a "good enough" base curve without taking any real world info into consideration when it's cold? I call bullshit.

    Yes, in sure it has a cold start under x degrees starting set up but, it's nothing horrible that would damage anything.

    But, if you're thinking starting a car and immediately going on your way and shutting the car off before it fully warms up is ok, that's your deal. Every single time you start there's microscopic wear before oil can hit everything. There's still residual, much less if it sits for a week and probably none after a month. But, day to day use, there should still be enough oil to not cause catastrophic wear.

    We go through this every year. Basically it comes down to, do what you want. It ain't my car.
    Of course all of those can and do tune how the car behaves but any EFI car is set to run rich until it gets to a certain point. Think back to carbureted engines with choke, you would richen up the mixture on warm up. That EE video up there does a pretty good job explaining it. Short drives are not ideal but idling on a cold engine is not great either.
    ____________________________
    ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

  16. #16
    The Deported Spectre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1st, 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Age
    40
    Posts
    34,636
    Car(s)
    87 XJ6 | 89 Bronco | 86 CB700SC | 02 919
    Rep Power
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by 93Flareside View Post
    You mean to tell me that the car doesn't use O2 and mass air and temp sensors to ensure that it doesn't run poorly? It just operates on a "good enough" base curve without taking any real world info into consideration when it's cold? I call bullshit.
    You need to go pick up a manual on EFI. Yes, an EFI vehicle operates in open loop (ignoring the O2 sensor) off a base fuel map while warming up. It only goes into feedback mode once it reaches a certain critical engine coolant temperature *and* the O2 sensors are warmed up enough to start providing valid feedback. The car cannot and will not make any feedback-based changes in this mode and will deliberately run rich.
    ____________________________

  17. #17
    93Flareside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 20th, 2009
    Location
    Old crabby people, Illinois
    Age
    25
    Posts
    13,963
    Car(s)
    '04 Ford Mustang GT '87 Mercury Colony Park
    Rep Power
    283
    And how long is that exactly?
    ____________________________
    1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
    2008 Jeep Patriot company provided - January 2012 - October 2013
    2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
    2011 Jeep Patriot company provided - October 2013 - June 2015
    2012 Jeep Patriot company provided - June 2015 - Present
    1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
    2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adunaphel
    Everyone needs a f*cking timeout here, so this thread is now locked.

  18. #18
    LeVeL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 16th, 2007
    Location
    Boston-ish
    Posts
    11,396
    Car(s)
    ///MX5 & TL & o|||||||o
    Rep Power
    424
    Quote Originally Posted by 93Flareside View Post
    But, if you're thinking starting a car and immediately going on your way and shutting the car off before it fully warms up is ok, that's your deal.
    I think it's pretty well established that it's not good to let the car idle for a long time to warm up and that it's far better to let it run for 30-60 seconds and then just start driving (taking it easy until it fully warms up). What I'm wondering here is whether or not it's bad to drive for only 1.5-2 miles, shut it off for an hour, drive another 1.5-2 miles, shut it off for another hour, and then drive it longer and let it fully warm up - will those two short drives make a difference or no? Again, the car will be fully warmed up for the third, longer drive.
    ____________________________
    "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
    Old flickr & New flickr

  19. #19
    The Deported Spectre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1st, 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Age
    40
    Posts
    34,636
    Car(s)
    87 XJ6 | 89 Bronco | 86 CB700SC | 02 919
    Rep Power
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by 93Flareside View Post
    And how long is that exactly?
    Varies by maker and model. On my Series III, to use something I'm familiar with, it doesn't go into closed loop until 80 degrees C engine coolant temperature. My 87 was among the first to have a heated oxygen sensor so technically that's ready in about 30 seconds to 3 minutes, but the engine still needs cold start enrichment beyond that time period ('choke' if you will) so it (like many cars) won't go into closed loop until the engine is warm enough that it doesn't need cold start enrichment any more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Should also mention that General Motors (who is really good at collecting statistics but really bad at applying them) did multiple studies over several decades and determined that the best cold start strategy to prolong the life of your engine is to start the car, wait 30 seconds, then drive off briskly but not abusively. Better still is to then get on the highway and drive ten miles at highway speeds (the last time they did this, highway speed was defined as 'about 65mph').

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LeVeL View Post
    I think it's pretty well established that it's not good to let the car idle for a long time to warm up and that it's far better to let it run for 30-60 seconds and then just start driving (taking it easy until it fully warms up). What I'm wondering here is whether or not it's bad to drive for only 1.5-2 miles, shut it off for an hour, drive another 1.5-2 miles, shut it off for another hour, and then drive it longer and let it fully warm up - will those two short drives make a difference or no? Again, the car will be fully warmed up for the third, longer drive.
    That's very bad and it does make a negative difference. 2 miles is not enough to get many cars up to operating temperatures.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GRtak View Post
    The O2 senesors need to be about 600F before they star to work properly. The MAF sensor will help get the fuel ratio close, but the O2 are the lie detector to them.


    On the acids. The way I was taught, once the acids are there, they don't go away.

    Some of them do 'boil off' or are otherwise expelled from the oil by heat along with the water (condensation) that will naturally appear in oil in an engine.
    ____________________________

  20. #20
    93Flareside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 20th, 2009
    Location
    Old crabby people, Illinois
    Age
    25
    Posts
    13,963
    Car(s)
    '04 Ford Mustang GT '87 Mercury Colony Park
    Rep Power
    283

    Cold starts

    Ok, so what's the big deal of warming the car until the temp gauge moves? At that point heat works so you defog/frost everything.
    ____________________________
    1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
    2008 Jeep Patriot company provided - January 2012 - October 2013
    2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
    2011 Jeep Patriot company provided - October 2013 - June 2015
    2012 Jeep Patriot company provided - June 2015 - Present
    1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
    2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adunaphel
    Everyone needs a f*cking timeout here, so this thread is now locked.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. F1 starts this Sunday!
    By ChrisSRT4 in forum Formula 1
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: March 11th, 2010, 10:48 AM
  2. The Cold Spell
    By Paddy in forum Photography
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: January 9th, 2010, 9:55 PM
  3. Series 13 starts...
    By PistonBroke in forum Fifth Gear
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: January 5th, 2008, 4:27 AM
  4. why 4wd car starts slower than rwd car
    By mathematica in forum Top Gear [2002-2015]
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: November 29th, 2007, 2:03 AM
  5. Series 12 starts on ...
    By PistonBroke in forum Fifth Gear
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: July 13th, 2007, 9:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •