[06x06] July 3rd, 2005

[thEam]

Torque is the most overrated attribute of cars today. IMHO all the fuss started when companies needed an "argument" for their diesel cars and randomly picked a number that was higher than with most petrol cars. They could have used the size of the fuel tank as well

I beg to differ. You haven't driven one of the modern diesels yet, have you?

I once compared a 110 hp TDI with a 1.4 petrol that had only 10 horsepower less - the diesel felt *much* more powerful although the petrol powered car was 15% lighter.

Actually I did drive several modern diesels in the past And yes, they do "feel" quite powerful, as you are very likely to have access to the maximum torque, whereever you are on the rev band (max torque with most diesel engines I know is from ~2k up to 4k rpm). In a petrol engine you will have to build up some revs to find the maximum of torque, so it doesn't feel quite that powerful. So I'll give all of you engine-torque-lovers that the distribution of torque over the rev band _is_ important for the feel and the performance of a car.

BUT, and this is the point, what moves you (and the car) forward is torque _at the wheels_ of a car, and that torque is a linear mechanical transformation of the torque on the other side of the gear box (engine side). So basically, you can have any amount of torque at the wheel you want. That's why a car with high power and high revs will be able to use a much lower gear ratio than a car with more torque and lower revs. E.g. a car with 300 hp @ 10,000 rpm will use a transmission ratio of 1: x (engine:wheels) while a car with 300 hp @ 5,000 rpm will have to use 1:2*x. Now, both cars will go the same speed (at max revs), and if the second car has twice the engine torque over the first car, at the wheel they will be exactly the same, and thus (presumably) be accelerating the same.

That's why from the amount of engine torque a car develops, you basically gain no information at all about that cars performance.

 

[Pulsinator]

.....This is why Formula 1 cars have transmissions with 8 to 12 gears. (Typical formula 1 cars generate about 300-500 foot pounds at 17K RPM)....

Gotta pull you up on this one. FIA Technical Regs:

9.3 Gear ratios :
9.3.1 The minimum number of forward gear ratios is 4 and the
maximum is 7.

So at least this season, they all have seven (as far as I know).

 

[GraemeH]

Some teams run 6 some run 7 according to Mr.Brundle.

 

[JMO]

Actually I did drive several modern diesels in the past And yes, they do "feel" quite powerful, as you are very likely to have access to the maximum torque, whereever you are on the rev band (max torque with most diesel engines I know is from ~2k up to 4k rpm). In a petrol engine you will have to build up some revs to find the maximum of torque, so it doesn't feel quite that powerful. So I'll give all of you engine-torque-lovers that the distribution of torque over the rev band _is_ important for the feel and the performance of a car.

BUT, and this is the point, what moves you (and the car) forward is torque _at the wheels_ of a car, and that torque is a linear mechanical transformation of the torque on the other side of the gear box (engine side). So basically, you can have any amount of torque at the wheel you want. That's why a car with high power and high revs will be able to use a much lower gear ratio than a car with more torque and lower revs. E.g. a car with 300 hp @ 10,000 rpm will use a transmission ratio of 1: x (engine:wheels) while a car with 300 hp @ 5,000 rpm will have to use 1:2*x. Now, both cars will go the same speed (at max revs), and if the second car has twice the engine torque over the first car, at the wheel they will be exactly the same, and thus (presumably) be accelerating the same.

That's why from the amount of engine torque a car develops, you basically gain no information at all about that cars performance.

The plain numbers don't say too much, you have a point there, you would at least have to see the chart to be able to judge the car - a torque peak is almost useless, high torque over a long rev band is preferable. And high torque at high revs is even better than high torque at low revs, and because the petrol engine revs higher, it is almost certainly faster on the track than a diesel with the same amount of hp or torque.

But on the road a turbo diesel is much more convenient than a smaller NA petrol engine because you don't have to shift down to accelerate measurably. And on the road I just don't want to rev the sh*t out of my car like I do on the Ring.

 

[kanderson]

So at least this season, they all have seven

I'm sure you're right. To be honest I haven't followed F1 for a while. I know the Guiness sponsored car (about six seasons ago) had 12 gears. The displacement was limited so they made up for it by spinning the engine to 16K RPM and using 12 gears.

 

[thEam]

But on the road a turbo diesel is much more convenient than a smaller NA petrol engine because you don't have to shift down to accelerate measurably. And on the road I just don't want to rev the sh*t out of my car like I do on the Ring.

Indeed, that's why a turbo diesel might feel faster on the road. Additionally, especially VW TDIs tend to have more power than claimed, I remember when the Golf IV GTI TDI with proclaimed 150 hp came out and competed against the 150 hp petrol version (also turbo charged). The diesel wiped the floor with the petrol car (it was in Auto Motor & Sport, i think), which was accredited to the much higher torque. Until later it turned out that VW hat "forgotten" to deinstall an experimental chip that upped the output of the diesel to ~180 hp while the petrol car was measured with only a little less than 160 hp...

 

[fluke667]

I know the Guiness sponsored car (about six seasons ago) had 12 gears. The displacement was limited so they made up for it by spinning the engine to 16K RPM and using 12 gears.

this can't be a f1 car then cause the rules about the number of gears was the same than today

 

[kanderson]

this can't be a f1 car then cause the rules about the number of gears was the same than today

Well, okay, maybe it was IRL or Cart or something else, but it was visiting the track near where I was living at the time and everyone was saying it was "formula one". It was cool anyway.

I actually got to drive it around the 2.5 mile oval a few times and actually topped 200 MPH. (It cost me $10K for 15 minutes.) It made the 25 MPH speed limit outside the track seem awfully slow when I was done.

 

[JMO]

Indeed, that's why a turbo diesel might feel faster on the road. Additionally, especially VW TDIs tend to have more power than claimed, I remember when the Golf IV GTI TDI with proclaimed 150 hp came out and competed against the 150 hp petrol version (also turbo charged). The diesel wiped the floor with the petrol car (it was in Auto Motor & Sport, i think), which was accredited to the much higher torque. Until later it turned out that VW hat "forgotten" to deinstall an experimental chip that upped the output of the diesel to ~180 hp while the petrol car was measured with only a little less than 160 hp...

I also read that comparison between the two Golfs, and the TDI one was even ahead of the numbers in the brochure
My own Golf IV didn't have more power than on paper, it had a hard time even reaching an indicated 200 km/h. And it still was much more relaxing and just a tiny little bit slower to drive than the petrol 2.0 Golf III I have now

 

[SSJ3 Goten]

One Word: Epic.

Fantastic Episode!

 

[cpm]

One Word: Epic.

Fantastic Episode!

so tell us.....

 

[Jostyrostelli]

Oh, I loved this episode. I want to see the Stig in his DB9R again, damn that sound!!!

Great challenge with the boat and road again.

A classic good ep.

 

[SSJ3 Goten]

Yeh, The DBR9 sounded heavenly. Although i think they should have raced the DBRS9 around the track for a time

Maybe some other time.

 

[Xeon SX]

anybody knows that celeb coz I dont...

 

[SSJ3 Goten]

I didn't know him either, dont like him much now either, lol

 

[Svenne]

Yes but you're forgetting how race cars are built.
The suspension is given no no compromise to street work when built and the most important bit: racing slicks on the DBR9. Those tires make all the difference in the world.

I could go off for 4 pages but I'll spare you the bore

All I have to say is, there's A LOT more to think about when comparing cars than just horsepower/weight ratio. Oh, and remember... "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"

There's no way a race bred car would lose to a road car. The DBR9 will be the quickest.

Dont be too sure about that.. You might have to take that back after the show

The DBR9:

V12 developing 600bhp and 517lb-ft of Torque
Weight 2424pounds

Maserati MC12

v12 developing 630bhp and 481lb-ft of Torque
Weight 2943

IT IS going to be a CLOSE CALL!

I dont know what you think you are? Carsalesman? Ofcousre bhp and torque are not only the important factors of making a car go around a track fast. A "Mosnstertruck" with twice the torque and bhp of the lets say DBR9 WILL NOT make it around faster then the DBR9, but it will kick its ass in the dirt. The MC12 is no monstertruck and even if it is "street legal" it dosnt have to mean that it is not a track challenging roadcar.

I too, and everyone else here with a little bit of time on thier hands could write 4 pages in this forum, but that is not important. Talk about something useful, and time will tell. All I can say is that IT IS going to be a close call!

Ps. Havnt seen the ep yet and waiting curiously Ds.

 

[SSJ3 Goten]

BTW, DBR9 cant go on the board because it cant be bought so even if it beats the fastest car it wont matter.

And i know if it does or not.
If you want the time then here it is:
1 minute 8 seconds (<-- highlight)

 

[LessThanSte]

David Dimbleby, legend to be honest. Presents one of the politics shos on TV, as well as all sorts of other things.

Um, that DBR9 sounded fantastic, and looks the piece too. The race rep is pretty sweet too, i'd love to know how it goes. And tbh, i'd pick that over an Enzo any day!

Challenge, very cool, more bad luck than anything though. Hammond and May where both very funny though, May with his 'Sailor' talk and Hammond with his hangover and sea sickness.

Also, i didnt think that Alfa was that nice, looked too round and horrible. Saying that, i think the Audi TT looks bloody stupid tbh, so what do i know. The guy who said the Ford Mondeo is better has a point though. The top of the range, mega quick version really does look very nice. And the DB9 does look FAR better also.

Finally, i missed the first couple of minutes, did they mention anything about Richard Whitely, thought there might have been something bout him either 1) during the news, 2) during the 'star in.....car' bit or 3) at the end (a picture, 'This show dedicated to Richard Whitely, 1942/3 - 2005) or whatever.

Good show, best of the series so far, though i think for tension the challenge to Verbier was better!

 

[psychot|K]

All I'm saying is that your knowledge of what makes a car fast, sounded very limited by what you said. Calm down.

Plus, I know exactly 'who I am'. I'm a guy who builds very very fast cars.

Yes but you're forgetting how race cars are built.
The suspension is given no no compromise to street work when built and the most important bit: racing slicks on the DBR9. Those tires make all the difference in the world.

I could go off for 4 pages but I'll spare you the bore

All I have to say is, there's A LOT more to think about when comparing cars than just horsepower/weight ratio. Oh, and remember... "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"

There's no way a race bred car would lose to a road car. The DBR9 will be the quickest.

Dont be too sure about that.. You might have to take that back after the show

The DBR9:

V12 developing 600bhp and 517lb-ft of Torque
Weight 2424pounds

Maserati MC12

v12 developing 630bhp and 481lb-ft of Torque
Weight 2943

IT IS going to be a CLOSE CALL!

I dont know what you think you are? Carsalesman? Ofcousre bhp and torque are not only the important factors of making a car go around a track fast. A "Mosnstertruck" with twice the torque and bhp of the lets say DBR9 WILL NOT make it around faster then the DBR9, but it will kick its ass in the dirt. The MC12 is no monstertruck and even if it is "street legal" it dosnt have to mean that it is not a track challenging roadcar.

I too, and everyone else here with a little bit of time on thier hands could write 4 pages in this forum, but that is not important. Talk about something useful, and time will tell. All I can say is that IT IS going to be a close call!

Ps. Havnt seen the ep yet and waiting curiously Ds.

 

[SSJ3 Goten]

No mention of Mr. Whitely.