1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS restoration project

[JCE]

I see exactly what you're doing with the 305, and that's fine. If you want to spend the same amount of money for less power, more power to ya, enjoy it. I'm only trying to help you with something you might regret later. I just dont want you doing it thinking you can save money. You will save a little money, but it's so insignificant in the big picture. It's like buying new tires and reusing the valve stem cap to save money, understand? I just want you to be aware of this. THat's all. If you want to keep it, feel free to keep it. It's still a smallblock chevy and you can still do anything to it that you can do to any other sbc. It's just a little little bit harder.

I won't regret it later, like I said I don't really care about power--300bhp is my target regardless of the engine I choose. Whether it was a 3.8L twin turbo, LT1, LS1, carb, or whatnot.

On the subject of rear ends, the 4th gen rear end and the 3rd gen rear end are exactly the same except the 4th gen rear sticks out 2 inches farther on each side. That's 4 inches wider total. It looks really trashy to use your stock wheels with it. So you'll need new wheels.

And that still doesn't tell you the gear ratio (The important part) and I dont know that all 4th gen rear ends are even limited slip rear ends. It may well be an open rear just like what you have. The gears themselves and the housing are exactly the same as what came on 3rd gens, that's why they swap right in - they're the same thing. So you're just as likely to get shit gears out of a 4th gen car as you are out of yours.

This is what a 4th gen rear looks like on a 3rd gen

http://img266.imageshack.**/img266/2452/p1010003ar8.jpg

http://img266.imageshack.**/img266/7049/p1010006ym8.jpg

It looks tolerable from some angles, but it just looks really dorky from others. To make it look right, you'll need 4th gen wheels and spacers for the front wheels. I personally think it just looks really dumb to have the rubber out past the fenders, the human eye can catch even the slightest misproportions very quickly. It's even worse when you look at it from teh front and you can see how the rear and front tires dont line up at all. That only works with fatties and skinnies, set up drag race style.

BTW that isn't my car.

http://img174.imageshack.**/img174/6551/camaro1ix5.png

http://img171.imageshack.**/img171/5512/camaro2qi9.png

And Firebirds actually have narrower rear fenders than Camaros do, so here's what it looks like on a 'bird:

Since you're looking to get new wheels this isnt a big deal, just letting you know. But get some 4th gen wheels and you'll be set. Just remember to get a spacer for the front.

Sorry, I forgot to mention the axle ratio. I plan on probably some 3.73's for a little sprint-like acceleration. If you know a better ratio for these 4th gen rears let me know. And I like the 4th gen rears because they are tougher than the 3rd gen AND they have LSD. If you know of a better rear that is as cheap as me raiding a salvage yard for a 4th gen rear for $50 then let me know.

As for the engine, go rediculous...Duramax Diesel...

Err I'll pass, as cool as that sounds I don't prefer a diesel. I just don't like the noise it makes.

A 350 is easier to get parts for and make stupid fast, although if you want to stay 5.0, put in a Ford 5.0....I see enough Fox bodies with SBC's in them that someone should do the opposite.

Trust me, if I could stuff a 302 or 281 (modular) into my Camaro I would do it IN A NANOSECOND. I love the noise Ford V8's make over Chevy V8's minus my 305.

What? That just isn't right.

Why not, Chevy into a Ford--the other way around seems just as acceptable to me. I mean if people are stuffing American V8's into Japanese cars Ford and Chevy's can be swapped too.

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Colors?

 

[MattD1zzl3]

What? That just isn't right.

I think it sounds like a cool idea. And i'm a camaro pilot!

If it doesnt cost more, would you consider a ford 5.0?

 

[JCE]

If it doesnt cost more, would you consider a ford 5.0?

In a nanosecond. There wouldn't even BE an arguement. I would rock that 302--even in stock form. Hell, if I could get a Ford 4.6L 281 Modular V8 in even 2V form into my Camaro's engine bay I would also do it in a nanosecond. So, find me how much it would cost for me to swap in the 302 and I might do it. I still need to at least rebuild the 305 to "refresh" my daily driver until the swap.

 

[tigger]

Swap an SBC for a 5.0? Come on now, that's a terrible idea . I think it's more work than it's worth, but then I personally prefer the SBC V8. And I do have a little first hand knowledge; I'm rockin a Ford 5.0 now. Ha, the most indestructible engine I've ever had the pleasure of owning was a 305 Chevy. But whatever floats your boat man.

 

[argatoga]

In a nanosecond. There wouldn't even BE an arguement. I would rock that 302--even in stock form. Hell, if I could get a Ford 4.6L 281 Modular V8 in even 2V form into my Camaro's engine bay I would also do it in a nanosecond. So, find me how much it would cost for me to swap in the 302 and I might do it. I still need to at least rebuild the 305 to "refresh" my daily driver until the swap.

I feel dirty for doing this but here are some ebay options (4.6s):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-Ford-4-6-32v-V8-2007-Continental-Aluminum-jeep-swap_W0QQitemZ110233375470QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item110233375470

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1996-Ford-Mustang-GT-4-6-V8-HO-Engine-Runs-Great_W0QQitemZ280209664312QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280209664312

Engine + Trans
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/96-97-MUSTANG-GT-4-6-MOTOR-TRANS-COMPLETE_W0QQitemZ280209158289QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280209158289

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/01-MUSTANG-GT-4-6-LTR-ENGINE-W-5-SPEED-TRANNY_W0QQitemZ180224404985QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item180224404985

 

[MattD1zzl3]

Swap an SBC for a 5.0? Come on now, that's a terrible idea . I think it's more work than it's worth, but then I personally prefer the SBC V8. And I do have a little first hand knowledge; I'm rockin a Ford 5.0 now. Ha, the most indestructible engine I've ever had the pleasure of owning was a 305 Chevy. But whatever floats your boat man.

But its a 305!

My toyota camry is faster than a 305 SBC, i know, i've raced against one. In a straight line. No shit.

As far as the anti engine swap crowd goes, i'd even like to see a japanese turbo I-4 in an american car, i love weird swaps.

 

[JCE]

Swap an SBC for a 5.0? Come on now, that's a terrible idea . I think it's more work than it's worth, but then I personally prefer the SBC V8. And I do have a little first hand knowledge; I'm rockin a Ford 5.0 now. Ha, the most indestructible engine I've ever had the pleasure of owning was a 305 Chevy. But whatever floats your boat man.

I do love my 305, but come on if it was reasonably priced the 302 would just own.

I feel dirty for doing this but here are some ebay options (4.6s):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-Ford-4-6-32v-V8-2007-Continental-Aluminum-jeep-swap_W0QQitemZ110233375470QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item110233375470

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1996-Ford-Mustang-GT-4-6-V8-HO-Engine-Runs-Great_W0QQitemZ280209664312QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280209664312

Engine + Trans
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/96-97-MUSTANG-GT-4-6-MOTOR-TRANS-COMPLETE_W0QQitemZ280209158289QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280209158289

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/01-MUSTANG-GT-4-6-LTR-ENGINE-W-5-SPEED-TRANNY_W0QQitemZ180224404985QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item180224404985

4.6L can be bought real cheap, especially ones that came from P71 Police cruisers. The problem is what the fabrication $$$ would cost and since the 4.6L (and all Ford modular V8's) are 50% wider than the small block Chevy/Ford it would require alot of cutting...

But its a 305!

My toyota camry is faster than a 305 SBC, i know, i've raced against one. In a straight line. No shit.

I'd beat you trust me. Taking 250-300lbs out of the car and adding minor performance mods has easily taken 0.5~1.0s off my 0-60 time (possibly more?). Your Camry wouldn't stand a chance. But I digress...

 

[InfernalVortex]

To Dizzle: There are many differnet kinds of 305 sbc's. The power is in the heads, displacement is just a measure of how well the engine can take advantage of the airflow. To say a 305 is slow is stupid, becuase it depends on which one it is. There are at least 6 different versions of the 305 SBC in thirdgen camaros alone.

To JCE - A third gen rear and 4th gen rear are mechanically and functionally IDENTICAL. The only difference is the width. Therea re more third gen rears without posi and with 2.73 gears, but you can easily find 3rd gen posi rear ends with whatever ratio you want out of any Iroc or Z28 you can find in a junkyard. Hell, you can take the gears out of the 4th gen rear you have, and put them in your thirdgen rear (you'll have to get the right carrier but that's not a big deal)

A 10-bolt is still a 10-bolt, and they're notoriously weak (all of them). the 4th gen 10-bolt is the same as the 3rd gen 10-bolt. There are 3rd gens with 9-bolt Borg Warner rear ends though. They're nice, but rare and replacement parts are impossible to find. They ARE stronger than the 10-bolts, but if you break one, you'll never be able to fix it. All you can do is get it reset at a shop with some shims to get hte posi working again, and if you cant shim it any farther, it's done. Replacement parts just aren't there.

And a Ford 302 is a better option than a sbc 305, the 4 inch bore that the 302 and 350 share do a LOT to help volumetric efficiency. Big stroke, small bore motors (like the 305) are geared more towards low RPMs and torque than high RPMs and horsepower. Smaller bores shroud the valves more and limit how much gain you'd get from bigger valves. A 305 will never have the volumetric efficiency of an equally prepared 350 or a Ford 302.

However, there are some things GM does better, like the ignition system, and some things Ford does better, mainly only the rear end.

If you want the best rear end money can buy, you either go with a Ford 9 inch (companies make retrofit designs for camaros based around the ford 9 inch rear) or the GM 12-bolt (Which was originally in heavy duty trucks). They'll both cost you some $$$$ though.

But at 300 crankshaft hp, you probably wont have to worry too much about the 10-bolt breaking unless you're using a tranny-brake to launch. It will likely break evetually though. The gears in the 10-bolt are just too small to take any kind of real torque.

ANd I want to reiterate Fourth gen rears are not stronger - they are exactly the same - they're still 10-bolt rears with a 7.625 inch gear.

There may be a perception that 4th gen rears are stronger because they tend to break less on 4th gens, but remember, even the almighty LS1 cant match the low end torque that the TPI motors made. The LS1 cars are made for mid-high RPM horsepower, and have LESS low end torque. They're actually EASIER on the gears. The LT1 fuel injection system with it's super short runners also emphasized higher RPM horsepower at the expense of low end torque.

It's that torque right off the launch that breaks these things, not horespower.

And about the Modular motors... I think they're a little overhyped. The LS1's are faster unless the Mod motors are supercharged. The LS1's also get better gas mileage while they make more power. The LS1's are also SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than Modular motors. Your 305 now is WAY lighter than the ford modular motor. The only thing worse than having a heavier motor, is having a heavier motor with all the weight on the top side of it. The only thing worse than THAT, is having MORE weight on teh front end of your car. You want to cut weight on teh front side of the car, not increase it, especially not for a motor that barely makes 300 hp.

See what I mean?

The modular motor isnt going to fit under your hood either. The reason the Fox body stangs are so good at what they did, is because they were light (at the expense of chassis rigidity), and these new modular motors are good enough on their own, but I find the LS1 much more impressive because it makes more power, it is lighter, and it gets better gas mileage. If you're gonna go through that much trouble, just do the LS-thing. They're VERY good motors and supercharged they'll run circles around any terminator mustang. I got a buddy that went 11.21 (1.64 60 ft) with a STREET CAR LS1 firebird. Only thing he did to it was tune it and put a supercharger on it at 8.5 psi, pretty much the same as a terminator mustang, only the Camaros handle better. (Dont even argue this, they are VERY successful at grassroots SCCA levels, much moreso than the Fords are)

 

[MattD1zzl3]

They're actually EASIER on the gears. The LT1 fuel injection system with it's super short runners also emphasized higher RPM horsepower at the expense of low end torque.

Lies and deceit

You make it sound like i'm rocking a beta LS1.

 

[InfernalVortex]

Lies and deceit

You make it sound like i'm rocking a beta LS1.

The LT1 makes less torque and more hp than the L98. This was intentional. The Tuned POrt INjection system sucked, it was designed to be a Long Tube Runner setup that emphasized torque. This is just fact. They made tons of torque, and they choked at 4500 RPMs, even with aftermarket mods they always run out of breath. It's because they were designed to make torque. GM wised up with the LT1 fuel injection system and went back to making horsepower again. Torque does nothing for track times if you can't spin it fast enough. (Horsepower = (Torque x RPM)/5252 ) You act like it's a bad thing. It's not.

Facts:

1992 L98:
245hp@4400 345tq@3200

1993 LT1:
275hp@5000 325tq@2400

And taht doesnt take into consideration teh torque curve. TPI motors make tons of torque all the way form idle to 3500. The low end torque that TPI makes is absolutely ridiculous. LS1's make a little more torque, but they're far better balanced because they make that torque a lot higher in the rev range.


And just so you know, I think TPI is a waste of time. It's an old system for back when they didnt know how to make horespower and still get good gas mileage. It's easier to get good gas mileage and make tons of torque. TPI was the rebirth of american muscle after a long period of smogger garbage that could barely tow it's own weight, but by modern standards it's crap.

Torque is what you feel, hp is what the timeslips tell you. (Or the top speed rather... timeslips can still vary a lot, but hp is what makes the car fast. Diesels have tons of torque, but no horsepower,that's why they're slow).

I found this on the internet that explains the torque vs horsepower thing pretty well. Because trust me, saying the LT1 has less torque is in NO way a bad thing.

Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.

In short, torque is what you feel, but horespower is how fast it goes.

The LT1's heads and intake system are the reason it has so much more power than the L98. They've got potential. Alittle goofy in a lot of ways, but they do have potential.

Did you know that the Vortec truck heads are basically LT1 heads modified to fit Gen I smallblocks? THe combustion chambers are VERY similar. And GM went to the short-runner intake style for the LT1 for ar eason, and they went even farther with it in that direction for the LS1 intakes.

Here's the site I got the above quote from, very good:

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

If you go down to "At teh Dragstrip" tehy compare the L98 Corvette to the LT1 Vette very well, talking about how the LT1 maintains its torque curve much longer than the L98 does. (Damn TPI)

 

[JCE]

To JCE - A third gen rear and 4th gen rear are mechanically and functionally IDENTICAL. The only difference is the width. Therea re more third gen rears without posi and with 2.73 gears, but you can easily find 3rd gen posi rear ends with whatever ratio you want out of any Iroc or Z28 you can find in a junkyard. Hell, you can take the gears out of the 4th gen rear you have, and put them in your thirdgen rear (you'll have to get the right carrier but that's not a big deal)

That's news to me. The local 3rd gen guys must not know jack about them then. And I'd like to change my gearing needs from above, I need more top end then acceleration gearing. Since the motor makes godly torque regardless maybe my gearing can solve a bit of the mid/high end lack of power.

And a Ford 302 is a better option than a sbc 305, the 4 inch bore that the 302 and 350 share do a LOT to help volumetric efficiency. Big stroke, small bore motors (like the 305) are geared more towards low RPMs and torque than high RPMs and horsepower. Smaller bores shroud the valves more and limit how much gain you'd get from bigger valves. A 305 will never have the volumetric efficiency of an equally prepared 350 or a Ford 302.

^ I know this, this is why I would jump at the chance to do a 302. Problem is it most likely won't be affordable enough when compared to just carbing out a SBC.

But at 300 crankshaft hp, you probably wont have to worry too much about the 10-bolt breaking unless you're using a tranny-brake to launch. It will likely break evetually though. The gears in the 10-bolt are just too small to take any kind of real torque.

Thankfully I don't do tranny/brake launches. Infact other than just stomping on the throttle I do not do any sort of "launch". Even if I wanted to the tires would just spin spin--wait I mean TIRE. Gotta love one wheel peel.

And about the Modular motors... I think they're a little overhyped. The LS1's are faster unless the Mod motors are supercharged. The LS1's also get better gas mileage while they make more power. The LS1's are also SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than Modular motors. Your 305 now is WAY lighter than the ford modular motor. The only thing worse than having a heavier motor, is having a heavier motor with all the weight on the top side of it. The only thing worse than THAT, is having MORE weight on teh front end of your car. You want to cut weight on teh front side of the car, not increase it, especially not for a motor that barely makes 300 hp.

I know modulars are larger, infact I have more experience working with Ford motors than GM motors. And I quite like the modular, it has a sound that far surpasses any SBC in my opinion. That alone is worth the price of addmission for me. You can make a modluar just as fast as a SBC, I've seen plenty of modular Mustangs around here making tons of rwhp and setting great times at the track. As long as the internals and top end are strong you can most certainly tune the hell out of it and get massive hp. And, I'm well aware that swapping one into a 3rd gen would be more trouble than its worth.

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LEZ TALK COLORZ!!!!111oneone

 

[JCE]

Oh, I took some new beauty shots today as well as cleaned my wheels and cleaned up the interior. I'll be putting down some vinyl on the floor here real soon.

*new pics as of 3/17/2008*









I used this to clean the wheels: http://www.eagleone.com/pages/products/product.asp?itemid=1003&cat=5006

And let me tell you it took off that 10yr old brake dust like it was nothing. Its like night and day how they look now compared to before.

Before - After
-->

I know you guys think my car is ugly, but he's beautiful to me.

 

[argatoga]

LEZ TALK COLORZ!!!!111oneone

Like I said earlier gulf livery, no car looks bad in that color combo.

 

[InfernalVortex]

I know modulars are larger, infact I have more experience working with Ford motors than GM motors. And I quite like the modular, it has a sound that far surpasses any SBC in my opinion. That alone is worth the price of addmission for me. You can make a modluar just as fast as a SBC, I've seen plenty of modular Mustangs around here making tons of rwhp and setting great times at the track. As long as the internals and top end are strong you can most certainly tune the hell out of it and get massive hp. And, I'm well aware that swapping one into a 3rd gen would be more trouble than its worth.

I missed taht the first time I read your post, but I saw that later. I apologize if it annoyed you.

And you can tune the hell out of a GM smallblock too. There's no sustitute for cubic money, regardless of which platform you start out with.

As far as colors go... we're fortunate that these cars look good in almost any color. Just dont do that horrid forest green color.

Consider reshooting it black, or maybe something cool like metallic orange if you want the attention.

Just get some different wheels.

 

[JCE]

What about the IROC blue or a non-metallic orange with a white base-coat?

 

[MattD1zzl3]

White F bodies look good, most other colors dont work.

 

[JCE]

I don't agree, white seems so generic and is just as much of a pain to keep clean as black. I like white as a general rule--but not on 3rd gen Camaros.

Oh, and here's the before and after pics of the wheel cleaning with the wheels closer together. HUGE difference. Best $4 I ever spent.

 

[Derek]

Go for bright red, always looks good on Camaros.

Edit:

Like so.

 

[JCE]

That's the original color of my car. I didn't like it. lol

 

[Derek]

Pff, dark blue?