2008 US Presidential Elections

Firecat

Politically Charged
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Perhaps this thread can be used for all the election coverage (caucuses/primaries etc).

The big headline today is that Obama won in Iowa, with something like 38%...Edwards with 30% and Clinton with 29% (last time I checked). Although as far as delegates go, Clinton still has the advantage I believe....and that's more important as it relates to getting the nomination.

Huckabee won the Republican straw poll.

Going into New Hampshire next week...and one step closer to finding out who will eventually lead this country. Obviously things can change (and will), but I have Obama beating Huckabee if it ended up being between the two.
 
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Obama is annoying me on two fronts (otherwise seemingly like a great candidate) he keep talking about standing together and being united, and climate change and hope. First of all the reason i like the U.S. is because its divided and different all over, secondly i can't be united with anybody who buys into climate change bullshit, he kept throwing that in like it was some bad plug. And of course not to rub it in, but i have no hope of happiness if this country falls into green politics, at least not without constantly breaking the law.

Uhg, so frustrating, either have your physical being choked by democrats, or your spiritual being strangled by republicans. I choose republicans for now, not because I'm religiously righteous or like wars, but because i hate big government, taxes, and restrictions. And in the end i can always keep my person beliefs with close friends, if we get really green politics theres nothing i can do to keep them from ripping money out of my hands and severely penalize me for moving about the way i choose.
 
Obama is annoying me on two fronts (otherwise seemingly like a great candidate) he keep talking about standing together and being united, and climate change and hope. First of all the reason i like the U.S. is because its divided and different all over......


So perhaps if you became president the first thing you would do is change the country's name to DSA..... so you believe United is wrong?

I'm not American but wasn't it the whole Unity thing that built it into what it is now?
 
^ the United States is built on separations. Federal bows to States rights.

But thats off topic. I am a republican just for the reason that socialism seems like carrying people who are too weak to stand. The drums are for a democrat to come in and try this and watch as the system they set up is raped by people trying to take advantage of it.

The real topics of this race will be immigration, foreign policy and who has not been around Washington for a while. I must remind you that Sen. Barack Hussein Obama might seem like that man but we have not elected a Senator in 47 years.

I admire his win in Iowa but it is a long road to the White House and more states that don't have Red Rover as a voting method. Super Tuesday will be the great decider on this one because I all the major candidates taking a small victory from the early states. It ain't over till the fat lady sings and Bill Clinton has hit on her in a drunken attempt to have a better night than his wife
 
How come this one state is so important? Arent there 49 left?
 
How come this one state is so important? Arent there 49 left?
It can change the mindset of those who have yet to vote. People like to vote for winners, that makes the first win so important. In the Netherlands, we say: "De eerste klap is een daalder waard" which translates roughly as: "The first blow is worth an [old dutch coin]" ;)
 
It can change the mindset of those who have yet to vote. People like to vote for winners, that makes the first win so important. In the Netherlands, we say: "De eerste klap is een daalder waard" which translates roughly as: "The first blow is worth an [old dutch coin]" ;)

That what I thought so. So why dont they put them on the same day to make it fair?
 
I personally think that Hillary and Edwards are sore losers. They need to get their act together and be ok with getting second place or third place in Iowa. The final poll was close between the 3 candidates (38 for obama, 30 for edwards and 29 for clinton), and yet Edwards was sitting there almost crying about his loss, didn't congratulate Obama or Hillary, and just talked about what he would do as President (rewinding and playing the tape over again). Hillary made a different kind of speech, yet now in New Hampshire she complained about the Iowa voters and is in general making excuses.

I don't think anyone will vote for her if she keeps this up, and I'm not sure Edwards is really going to get the vote. His arguments for yesterday were "Change won, and the status quo lost". Wtf is the status quo he's referring to?

The republican candidates are too ambiguous with their arguments IMO, I'm really all for Obama. It would be great to see an African American president.

Ps. Is it me or does it seem like all the other candidates are taking Obama's "change" theme and then flexing it and misconstruing it to fit and in many cases dominate their original theme? At least I saw that Huckabee and Edwards were really throwing that word around everywhere.
 
What's even funnier is that Hillary (in her speech) was talking about "change" as well....with Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright standing right behind her.
 
Ps. Is it me or does it seem like all the other candidates are taking Obama's "change" theme and then flexing it and misconstruing it to fit and in many cases dominate their original theme?

Absolutely, he by far and away has the best persona in my opinion, he makes all the other candidates look like flakes and poofs, i just have nightmares about the bullshit that will happen if we get green politics of any sort. Just today a customer with nice hair was shouting about how great of a idea carbon caps were, o man the temptation i had to hold down to keep myself from speaking up. Sorry if this is completely the wrong thread, just don't know where to vent.

But thats off topic. I am a republican just for the reason that socialism seems like carrying people who are too weak to stand.


I don't think the problem is supporting those that are too weak to stand, its more that socialism slaps people in the face the more they try to do, and then gives them candy if they give up.
 
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What's even funnier is that Hillary (in her speech) was talking about "change" as well....with Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright standing right behind her.

Ahahaha totally. And what's the change that Huckabee is bringing to the white house? Walker, Texas ranger of course :p

I really and seriously hope that people pass that adlib of Hillary calling Iowa voters crap on youtube resulting in a dramatic decrease in voters for her everywhere.

I love the lineup we have (in terms of those that came 2nd and lower). We have a crybaby (Edwards), a thief(Rudy), Chuck Norris, and whining excuse-generating robotic psycho bitches (Hillary and the others). We could make a sitcom using these guys. If you have any more nicknames let's get them out there.

Ottobon: Since this is the election thread, its pertinent, don't worry about it.
 
Tonight the repubs and dems have debates on ABC. I'll be tuning in for this one.

I don't agree with what Hillary and Obama say etc, and if either were president i'd probably despise them as well....but I will admit that solely because they are "different" (female/black) there are still some positives that will come out of having one of them win, versus any of the other frontrunners that have equally as bad positions on the issues.
 
Here in the Netherlands a newspaper made a sort of 'test', excisting of about 20 questions. After you filled them all in you get a result, giving you the answer on the question 'who fits best to my political' ideas. It actually cleared it up for me as i find U.S. elections always a bit confusing to follow.

the app said i should vote for Obama (or Clinton) if i were an American.
 
Agreed Firecat.

Huckabee is the most charismatic republican, all the rest are just old white guys with saggy chins and bald heads saying the same things over and over again.

I'm not sure if Obama will be able to tackle all the issues but he is a role model. IMHO, he really does have leadership qualities and almost even an heroic aura about him. I don't think I could really look up to any of the other candidates like that. But nevertheless, he does lose it when it comes to debating the other brick walls we call candidates and I agree with you about their position on the issues.
 
I'm really all for Obama. It would be great to see an African American president.

Who cares what "race" he is, sex, religion, etc. he is? The sooner you, and most importantly the American people, start focusing on each candidate's merit's, the sooner we will drop this annoying habit of dividing humans into little subdivisions and start regarding ourselves as Americans, and only Americans, the stronger our nation will be.

So, stepping away from the notion of "race" (aren't we all one race, the human race?) there is no substance behind his words. None. He has great charisma and a wonderful personality, but he is, like Clinton, a babe in the woods. We in Illinois said the same things about him as America is saying now, sent him to Washington, and we are still waiting for him to do his job. The other reason is, picking apart his congratulatory speech from Thursday night, is that he is all for bi-partisanship.

That cannot be done in a true democracy, as that is verging towards a dictatorship. You NEED friction between political parties, otherwise only one side will benefit, and no compromises between both parties would exist. If there is a German reading this, could you inform me of how many political parties are represented in your parliament? I know it is many, and I willing to bet there is little bi-partisanship.

Lastly, I would never vote for him because he is an out and out socialist, and I think socialism is bad for America, to put it simply. I am sure someone from a socialist country is going to speak up on this, but that is your country, not mine. What works for X country may not work for Y country. Government is a necessary evil, but the less of it in my life the more freedom I have. And America will see him for what he is and stands for in the coming months if he nominated for President.

Think about it; the last time America voted for a socialist president was Carter, and look how fast we got him out of office. Then Regan was voted twice and he ran as an out and out conservative. Bush the first ran as a moderate, so did Clinton, don't fool yourself that he ran on a liberal platform, I remember 1992 and 1996 clearly. Bush the second ran as a conservative both times...uh, see the pattern? America does not want a socialist president. Nobody looks back to the Carter years with happy feelings, and let me tell you, once he was in the White House, it was all status quo.
 
^ Franklin D. Roosevelt was sort of socialist and did, I think, a good job?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/fr32.html

oMay not be right sort of policies for now though?

Two examples from the link really stood out to me, and from them I can argue on why I think socialism is bad for America, and especially, the evils of "good intentions".


Firstly, FDR's introduction of Social Security. During the lean times of the Great Depression, Social Security was introduced for pensioners who lost everything to get a little stipend from the government, furnished by people who are working. Sounds great, right? Fast forward seventy some years and it nows takes two working people to pay for every one receiver of Social Security.

The program obviously had good intentions, right? But here is the ugly side: by letting a government entity manage money, they bungled it, and now the middle class is the ones who suffer, by having money extorted from them all the name of good intentions. Believe it or not, there are people in America who, instead of privately saving and investing their money, they are now virtually indentured servants to the government on the first of every month when the receive their SS check. It is disgusting!


The second paragraph from the link was a little less alarming, but made me feel uneasy non the less. "{B}ut a revolution in constitutional law took place. Thereafter the Government could legally regulate the economy." Again, it had roots in good intentions. By giving them control, I think it really limited the scope of how high our economy could go.

Take a look at Hong Kong, pre 1997; it didn't have import or export duties, no restrictions on foreign investments, or limits going out. There was no capital gains tax, no interest tax, no sales tax, and no tax breaks for struggling companies. Corporate tax was a paltry 16.5% of profits, and the individual tax rate was around 15%. They can thank a man named John Cowperthwaite, who did the most sanest thing any government entity has done in a hundred years: he and the colonial government left the economy alone, to prosper and fail within it's own boundaries, not one's set by politicians.


I would also like to touch on another aspect of government warding, welfare and national healthcare. Both were, again, based on good intentions. First off, anyone who thinks that a healthcare system should be run by a government entity should stop and think of this: when Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, it took about 5 days for the government to get in gear, practically setting a record in efficiency not seen since World War II. As we all know, Government moves at a snail's pace, that is the nature of bureaucracy. Do you really want that pace when it comes to your health?

Why is it that hospitals in States bordering Canada are full of Canadians in for surgery? We all know why, it is because Canada has socialized medicine, and the poeple who can pay, come here. Meanwhile, uncle Ted, good working man that he is, has to wait 6 months for a transplant because that is how it is with socialized medicine. For the people in Britian, I am sure that you could spend a great deal venting your spleen about healthcare.

Years ago America did not have any sort of government health plan, you went to the doctor, you paid your bill. Now think about this: did you hear of people going into debt because of health care costs then? What about now? Why is it that when the government gets involved in something private, the cost of business goes up?

How about the welfare system? introduced by President Johnson, under the guise of "The Great Society", it has been nothing but. let's face it: in any society, there will the few percent that will never work, or want to work, or take any responsibility for their actions. Now America has to pay for these assholes under the guise of welfare.


I want one person, ONE person, to name me a successful housing project that exists or has existed in America, a housing project that was built under the guise of...you guessed it! good intentions. Because of "good intentions", the people living in these sewers to the sky had become slaves to the government.

It makes me sick to my stomach that any human being would do this to another. Instead of helping the poor person get out of their situation by showing (and not giving!) them opportunities, the government keeps the welfare recipient in a condition akin to serfdom from medevial Europe, giving them just enough money to keep them dependent on the government. It encourages illegitimate children as a means to gain more money. If that doesn't make you feel angry, I question the soundness of your mental condition.

So, there you have it.
 
Jayhawk: Just on the subject of race, you're right that we are the human race and we shouldn't be discriminatory and I certainly am not racist. It's just that I'm not sure I have faith with some voters to get past the "concept" of race, and elect him based on other aspects. I think that conservatives would pull out all the stops in terms of dirty tactics in order to bring him down. They've already started with that false rumor of him studying in a madras in Indonesia or whatever.

He's the only one that looks remotely alive, and is a fresh face in a sea of senility and familiar faces IMO. Sure he may not hit home with his political ideas but you can't have both ice cream and cake i suppose. The only people I don't want to see in the final running are Guiliani, Mitt Romney, and Edwards. Let the others duke it out.
 
Jayhawk: Just on the subject of race, you're right that we are the human race and we shouldn't be discriminatory and I certainly am not racist.

I know with each post I make I go more and more off topic, and I am typing this not in spite or in anger, but as a lesson that I learned the hard way, so that you will not have to.

I would like you consider this: Can you say"I am not a racist" and be honest with yourself? My belief is that humans are by nature racist, something that probably dwells in our most primitive part of our brain. Dwell on that for a moment.

This is how I look at it: racism is learned, but I think largely it is instinct. Is that instinct good? Well, no. So I resolved long ago this: Me and my brain were having a conversation.

ME: "So what you are saying, is that deep down inside, I am bigoted and racist?

BRAIN: "Yes, Jay. and you have a choice in the matter, too!"

ME: "Really! Well, what would they be, brain. I am all ears".

BRAIN: "Well, your first choice is the easy path. That is, to accept stereotypes, to be bigoted rather than loving, to be racist instead of abolishing ignorance, to generalize groups instead of getting to know the individual".

ME: "And the hard path?"

BRAIN: "To fight these urges and feelings every day, no matter what. To speak out what you think is wrong, to never give the ones who took the easy path an inch, as they will take a mile. To accept there is only one race, the human race, and that all the people in the world are just variations of a beautiful, wonderful theme".


I took the hard path. And really, it was the easiest choice I have made.
 
Yes I can safely say "I'm not racist" and be honest with myself because I've been brought up that way. I socialize and make friends with everybody, no matter what race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. they are.

I myself have been discriminated against but it isn't my nature to lower myself to debasing people of other skin colors and origins just because I've had people discriminate me.

I do make stereotypical jokes with my friends (mostly Indian since I am one), but that's only done knowing that those statements are just jokes, and are just poking fun at the stupidity of those remarks.

I'm only saying that an African American president would be good because there are a lot of racists within this country (and all over the world as a matter of fact). We have to deal with that somehow, and we can't let that stop people from voting for Obama or whoever. I know there are a lot more good people out there that don't care what race Obama is, but we still have to deal with those few that do care. And that's why I said it would be nice to see a fresh face like a woman, or a non-white person in the office. It means that we are moving forward.

Imagine living in the times of the civil rights movement. We both would say "Every man is equal no matter what his/her skin color", but the fact of the matter was that those times were replete with discrimination and segregation.

Edit: Also, I'm an astrophysics major, so I study things out there in the distant universe. Right now I'm doing research on a black hole binary system thats hundreds of millions of miles away from us. When I think about how vast the universe is, and when I look at work on extra-solar planets and consider their sizes and distances from us, and then come down to the Earth and to the US and to humanity, I realize how small and insignificant we really are. To an astronomer, we are just one planet, the Earth. That already is small compared to the rest of the universe, so its stupid to start going even smaller and calling ourselves white black brown yellow pink green etc.

Imagine what would happen if aliens came over here and we just all started pointing fingers at each other rather than uniting together.
 
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