2009 Japanese Formula 1 Grand Prix

No, no, I mean getting so much from this particular car. The F60. You can't deny that he is a genious..

Hamilton for example ( I know this is gonna start a war ) could never driver the F60 that fast..

Bollocks. If they both started with the same car at the same time, Hamilton would be getting just as much from the Ferrari, as would Kimi from the McMerc.
I'm not sure that Kimi is actually out driving the car that much anyway. The fact that he hasn't had a serious team mate for ages is exaggerating his effect.
 
No, no, I mean getting so much from this particular car. The F60. You can't deny that he is a genious..

Hamilton for example ( I know this is gonna start a war ) could never driver the F60 that fast..

You're talking rubbish and you know it. Of course, if he was put in it now it wouldn't work. But if he had the same mileage as Kimi, you have no logical argument that Kimi could drive it faster. Massa was quicker than Kimi at the start of the season, and you can't say Lewis is a shitty driver compared to Massa. I think we have seen epic drives from Massa, Kimi, Alonso and Lewis getting their cars where they have put them.
 
No, no, I mean getting so much from this particular car. The F60. You can't deny that he is a genious..

Hamilton for example ( I know this is gonna start a war ) could never driver the F60 that fast..

I think so too, especially since Ferrari stopped designing the car. Whereas McLaren kept working on new upgrades to make the car competitive, which transformed into a race winning car. Without the upgrades, hamilton wouldn't have a hope in getting a podium finish, let alone two race wins. His dismal performance in the first half of the season pretty much sums up his ability to drive a bad handling, uncompetitive race car. The race car got hamilton the pole position, but he will go and bin it against the barrier because of driver error.

Whereas Kimi never had the luxury of a competent race car, which is why he could never qualify well to get in the front row. It's his blinding start and his ability to push the F60 beyond it's performance that makes him stands out from the rest.
 
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Some of you didn't understand me.. Have I said Hamilton is bad anywhere in my post? No.

I tried to say that based on Fisichella performance so far ( and the guy isn't bad, when he has a decent car, he's good ) it can be said that Kimi is the man for this car. I don't think any of the better drivers could be able to get it so far..
 
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Rosberg has not been penalised. Stewards deemed that he failed to obey the timing delta, but the messages were overriden by a "low fuel" read-out and they also concluded, via telemetry, that he obeyed the message of the yellow flags in the incident zone.
 
well that's good news for Williams and Rosberg.

No action taken on Rosberg incident
By Pablo Elizalde Sunday, October 4th 2009, 09:00 GMT



The Japanese Grand Prix stewards have decided Nico Rosberg did not deserve a penalty and so the Constructors' Championship is still up for grabs.

Rosberg and Williams technical director Sam Michael were summoned by the stewards after the race following claims from Jenson Button that the German had set his best sector time during the safety car period.

Button reckoned he could have beaten the German had he been slower and the Briton expected Rosberg to be penalised.

A penalty would have given Button's Brawn team the title, as it needs just 0.5 points to clinch it and both the Briton and team-mate Rubens Barrichello would have moved up a position.

The stewards, however, deemed Rosberg had done nothing wrong.

"The Race Director reported to the Stewards that Car No 16, Nico Rosberg exceeded the time delta from when the 'Safety Deployed' message was displayed until crossing the Safety Car line," a statement from the FIA said.

"The Stewards met with the drivers and the team representatives and considered the telemetry data, GPS records, timekeeping and video evidence. This evidence showed a 'low fuel' message on the drivers display had overridden the time delta information preventing the driver from being able to accurately follow the timing information.

"However the telemetry data shows that the driver from a safety point of view had reacted adequately to the yellow flags and safety car boards. In view of this the stewards intend to take no further action."
 
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Well, if they gave him a penalty that would be just another of their weird fibs..
 
Some of you didn't understand me.. Have I said Hamilton is bad anywhere in my post? No.

I tried to say that based on Fisichella performance so far ( and the guy isn't bad, when he has a decent car, he's good ) it can be said that Kimi is the man for this car. I don't think any of the better drivers could be able to get it so far..

You're right. He seemed much more motivated this season. Getting a win and some podiums with that shitty F60 is a big achievment.
About today's race I got only one thing to say: boring. Except Alguersuari's crash. God help Vettel!
 
You're talking rubbish and you know it. Of course, if he was put in it now it wouldn't work. But if he had the same mileage as Kimi, you have no logical argument that Kimi could drive it faster. Massa was quicker than Kimi at the start of the season, and you can't say Lewis is a shitty driver compared to Massa. I think we have seen epic drives from Massa, Kimi, Alonso and Lewis getting their cars where they have put them.

And I think you don't give R?ikk?nen the credit he deserves, you under estimate Massa and hold Lewis on a golden pedestal up in the clouds.

1. Ferrari does not have a competitive car. McLaren do.
2. Massa has evolved alot since his Sauber days.
3. Nurburgring 2009. Hamilton in an uncompetitive car at the back of the pack radioes his team and asks to "save the engine and transmission".

Wat?

I would like to point out that while I am a fan of R?ikk?nen I have said many many times he seems slower than he was a few years ago when he was at McLaren. I have said it before the duo Massa & R?ikk?nen really were both very good in the F60. Badoer was crap and Fisicella isn't anywhere near R?ikk?nen despite his racing experience. In the beginning of this year Hamilton wasn't happy in an uncompetitive car and he wasn't that interested.

A crappy car is like poison to a racing driver. If Massa was still in the car I think he would be very close to R?ikk?nen. And no I don't think Hamilton would be anywhere near. Because Kovalainen was faster than him in some races this year when McLaren was crappy. Hamilton is a good driver but in the current Ferrari I don't think he would stand a chance agains Massa or R?ikk?nen...
 
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But Brawn is losing pace. They are struggling for points. Had unlucky Webber been in the race properly, Button would have been out of points. RB is untouchable at the moment, but Brawn are struggling against almost everyone. Even the lousy Ferrari beat them today.

I think Vettel has the momentum to take the title if Webber can back him up.

I think Brawn is falling back to the midpack team Honda used to be, next year will show if their success was a fluke or not.

And I don't know about Brawn, but I know RBR have new updates for their car for the last two races, so they are developing right to the end.
 
I can't believe some of you are saying that Lewis can't drive a shitty car. His performances in Australia, Bahrain, Turkey, and Barcelona surely laid rest to these rumours?

I don't think you appreciate exactly how bad that McLaren was at the start of the season. They were at least half a second slower than the Ferrari, a car which wasn't competitive either. In Australia and Barcelona he came from last to 4th and 9th respectively in a car which was 1.5 seconds slower than the winners. Come on guys, I give credit where it is due, to all four excellent drivers in crappy cars. But you seem to want to think that Lewis is rubbish for some reason.

The only logical argument you can make is by comparing team mates. And on that basis, Lewis has his bases covered.
 
I can't believe some of you are saying that Lewis can't drive a shitty car. His performances in Australia, Bahrain, Turkey, and Barcelona surely laid rest to these rumours?

I don't think you appreciate exactly how bad that McLaren was at the start of the season. They were at least half a second slower than the Ferrari, a car which wasn't competitive either. In Australia and Barcelona he came from last to 4th and 9th respectively in a car which was 1.5 seconds slower than the winners. Come on guys, I give credit where it is due, to all four excellent drivers in crappy cars. But you seem to want to think that Lewis is rubbish for some reason.

The only logical argument you can make is by comparing team mates. And on that basis, Lewis has his bases covered.

I'm not sure whether this is the actual debate topic. In my eyes, Hamilton did manage to prove himself this year, even though he registered a few blips, like the absolute lows of Silverstone. The major issue that was first put up today was whether he could grapple with the Ferrari F60 in a hypothetical situation. And, TBH, the answer in today's situation would be "no" (at least not for the first one or two races).
 
Sir Stiggington, you have to stop responding to MadCow809. We all know he's one f*cked up Ferrari fan and nobody is going to change that so just let it go.
 
I'm not sure whether this is the actual debate topic. In my eyes, Hamilton did manage to prove himself this year, even though he registered a few blips, like the absolute lows of Silverstone. The major issue that was first put up today was whether he could grapple with the Ferrari F60 in a hypothetical situation. And, TBH, the answer in today's situation would be "no" (at least not for the first one or two races).

On that issue I agree with you completely. But the way he said it made it sound like Lewis wouldn't be able to full stop.

And well said Xeon :p
 
To answer the question (though I've only come in on this page, well done to Vettel BTW), I think if Hamilton was plonked into the F60 like Fisichella was with no testing or anything more substantial than a simulator, then yeah, he would struggle. It's taken Raikkonen (and to some extent Massa) half a year, including extensive pre-season testing, to get their heads around the F60. I don't think it's all that bad a car when it has a driver who knows it's limits and characteristics as Raikkonen clearly does, despite the development freeze. If Hamilton had the same amount of time in the F60 as Raikkonen, then I'm sure he'd be a competent match, and probably even better. I think the McLaren mp4-24 is a marginally better car than the Ferrari now, but they started from a much lower baseline. It's still fundamentally the same car they've had since Melbourne, which shows just how hard Woking have worked to get it back to the front.

I do rate Hamilton higher than Raikkonen because the Finn hasn't really set the world on fire these past two or three, or even four years. It's only in the last part of the season that he's really come alive. Raikkonen on his day is peerless, but he needs to be motivated and I dont think Ferrari have gotten the best out of him. It's difficult to determine just why he's improved his game (or has he? Where would Massa be if he were still racing this year?) but I think he does want to stay in F1, and McLaren are the only logical choice if he wants a car to battle at the front.

Hamilton vs Raikkonen next year is a partnership F1 needs to have.
 
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Well done to Vettel, great drive. However, people seem to forget that he's on his last engine, this engine has already served him for 2 races and he has 2 more to go. If he takes an extra engine in the last race it's a 10 place grid penalty and if he doesn't he's running a very big risk of totaling the engine. So it's nice to see him back in contention, but I wouldn't take it too seriously.

GJ Kimi too :D
 
But he's been so dominant in the beginning
 
Jenson Button has scored 18 points since Turkey. He does not deserve a WDC.

Personaly I don't know what to say to that. Fact is that the driver with the most points is the champion. Honestly IMO Vettel has been more impressive this year than Button. I know Buttons dominance was mostly due to the vastly superior car... he wouldn't be the first driver to win the WDC because of his car though.
 
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