2011 Formula 1 Gran Premio de Espa?a Santander

narf

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What's this about dark ages...?

The distant past = the dark ages. No idea about every season ever, so that's my disclaimer when I said "more stops than ever" just in case there was a season decades ago that had more - don't want to upset the anoraks.

I don't want anyone to die on the track.

Reintroducing fireballs in the pitlane and cars driving off with a huge pipe still stuck in the filler knocking out mechanics sounds like a great idea then.
 

DubyaStep

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oh look! there is another race thread up! Lets all go talk about the next race and leave this where it is.
 

lukenwolf

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Seriously, folks - sometimes I think I accidentally stumbled into a kindergarten. For crying out loud, for the first time in ages, we have a season that starts with 5 races, none of which was dull. Considering that one of them was held in Barcelona makes this almost a miracle. And what do we do? Cry about the changes that made it happen *facepalm*

If we go back to the "pure racing", we'll be back to cryptonite tires that last an entire distance and ridiculous processions with 2 or 3 position changes per race due to pitstops. Nobody in a sane state of mind can be wishing for that snoozefest to return. Of course, the big problem is that evil German, who wins everything. Did anyone bother to check, who built the car, which seems to win just about any GP? Bloke's called Adrian Newey and this may come as a shock to y'all, he's been doing that for almost 20 years. Give that man a pencil and a few sheets of paper and you'll end up with a superior car. Happened with Williams, McLaren and now Red Bull. So instead of blasting the rules, the other teams should look, who's running their design team. That's not to say however, that TPTB could leave the dang rules alone for a year or two. This years rulebook seems to get the job done, so just leave it as it is.

Which brings me to something else. Our dear friend Cellos:

I've seen fanboyism for a long time, but the dribble you've been sprouting here is nothing short of ridiculous. Blaming the rules for Alonso not winning is so mindbogglingly ridiculous and makes me wonder, how you made it past the registration process for the forum without getting lost in the process. I'm gonna let you in on a secret. 10 Years ago Ferrari blew any piece of opposition into the middle of next week for several years, while this years incarnation is the party being blown into the weeds. Why's that?

Lets see. Back in the day Ferrari had one of the best drivers (Schu), one of the best designers (Byrne) and the best strategist behind the pitwall (Brawn). In the 2011 incarnation, only one of those boxes is ticked (Alonso). They have a mediocre designer, which is why the 150 is wonky and desperately pedestrian on primes and they have a hopeless strategist, which is why they make bad tactical mistakes. This is why Alonso didn't win in Barcelona. He didn't have the car for the job and the crew called him in too late for the second stop, losing him the lead. Once the other cars were past the red road-block, they left him in the dust, because with his car he brought a knife to a gunfight. Take any rulebook in the world, there's just no way he could ever have won that race - deal with it.
So please, do us a favour and stop whining. The car's not up to the job - the rules have nothing to do with it.
 

mpicco

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Lets see. Back in the day Ferrari had one of the best drivers (Schu), one of the best designers (Byrne) and the best strategist behind the pitwall (Brawn). In the 2011 incarnation, only one of those boxes is ticked (Alonso). They have a mediocre designer, which is why the 150 is wonky and desperately pedestrian on primes and they have a hopeless strategist, which is why they make bad tactical mistakes. This is why Alonso didn't win in Barcelona. He didn't have the car for the job and the crew called him in too late for the second stop, losing him the lead. Once the other cars were past the red road-block, they left him in the dust, because with his car he brought a knife to a gunfight. Take any rulebook in the world, there's just no way he could ever have won that race - deal with it.
So please, do us a favour and stop whining. The car's not up to the job - the rules have nothing to do with it.

Now Schumacher and Brawn are both at Mercedes, so that's 2 ticks off your list in one team, why wasn't Mercedes in front of Alonso?
 

Finnley

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Because Schumacher isn't the driver he was some years ago, and they're car is inferior to the Ferrari.
 

bone

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Now Schumacher and Brawn are both at Mercedes, so that's 2 ticks off your list in one team, why wasn't Mercedes in front of Alonso?

who know what would've happened if schumacher hadn't kept up rossberg...
 

Cellos88GT

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So please, do us a favour and stop whining. The car's not up to the job - the rules have nothing to do with it.

Why don't you do us a favor and come back with a sound argument?
 

Dr_Grip

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Why don't you do us a favor and come back with a sound argument?

Unlike you, he has one. But i guess you're purpose here is more in line with this:
successful-troll-is-successful.jpg


Now Schumacher and Brawn are both at Mercedes, so that's 2 ticks off your list in one team, why wasn't Mercedes in front of Alonso?

To stop the flaming and get back to normal business: The point mpicco brings up here is one i've been thinking about since the second part of the 2010 season.
MercBrawnGP's start into 2010 was ruined by winning the 2009 WDC as an underfunded privateer, not having any resources to start work on the 2010 car on time.
But with backing by Mercedes, a certified genius like Ross Brawn, one highly-talented driver and one who, even if not nearly as fast as in his prime, brings tons of experience into the team, they should have been able to catch up with McLaren and Ferrari by mid-season 2010 (maybe even challenge RBR) and should be right in the middle of the pack chasing down RBR right now.
I don't see the reason why Mercedes suck as hard as they do. To be honest, i can't judge weather the Ferrari or the Merc is the worse car. In fact, that's a moot point. Both teams should be up at the top and while i agree with Lukenwolf on why Ferrari isn't, cause his logic is sound Merc (as much as i dislike them, by the way) should be up in front theoretically. I agree with mpicco that they aren't. But why?!
 
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Cellos88GT

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Unlike you, he has one.

No. You have failed to understand my point, I can't help you there as your bias and arrogance are thwarting your comprehension.
 

SchumacherM

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To stop the flaming and get back to normal business: The point mpicco brings up here is one i've been thinking about since the second part of the 2010 season.
MercBrawnGP's start into 2010 was ruined by winning the 2009 WDC as an underfunded privateer, not having any resources to start work on the 2010 car on time.
But with backing by Mercedes, a certified genius like Ross Brawn, one highly-talented driver and one who, even if not nearly as fast as in his prime, brings tons of experience into the team, they should have been able to catch up with McLaren and Ferrari by mid-season 2010 (maybe even challenge RBR) and should be right in the middle of the pack chasing down RBR right now.
I don't see the reason why Mercedes suck as hard as they do. To be honest, i can't judge weather the Ferrari or the Merc is the worse car. In fact, that's a moot point. Both teams should be up at the top and while i agree with Lukenwolf on why Ferrari isn't, cause his logic is sound Merc (as much as i dislike them, by the way) should be up in front theoretically. I agree with mpicco that they aren't. But why?!

Because the team might have the moniez and the prestigious name. But think back. This has evolved from the BAR Honda team. The team that made one of the worst cars ever...the RA107 and 108. The headstart they had with the BGP-001 and the clever DD rule interpretation was enough to secure a championship. We were all excited to see a BGP-002...but that became the MGP-W01.

The brains of Brawn are there and so is the driving talent in both MSC and Nico. But the tech...the car...the ideas....aren't.
 

Dr_Grip

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Normally money can buy talent. That's why i figured the RA109/BGP-001 worked. Cause they hired some people who could actually design a car.
 

lukenwolf

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Now Schumacher and Brawn are both at Mercedes, so that's 2 ticks off your list in one team, why wasn't Mercedes in front of Alonso?


Because your math is flawed. Schumacher isn't one of the best anymore. Bloke's 42 years old - he declines like everyone else and the most important box is not ticked - the designer. Whatever ape penned the Merc was surely not in the same league with Newey. So you have an inferior design with a declining driver -> hence, FAIL. Ferrari has an inferior design with a driver in his prime -> hence, better than Merc. It's simple. Just add 1+1 and come up with something else than 11.
 

lukenwolf

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Why don't you do us a favor and come back with a sound argument?

I did. Alonso is one of the best drivers around and one of the few, who can give HAM and VET a run for their money, but even he can't win a chariot race in an ox cart. Give him a better car and he'll win. Simple.
 

lukenwolf

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Sorry for triple-posting, but there were so many replies to answer:

Normally money can buy talent. That's why i figured the RA109/BGP-001 worked. Cause they hired some people who could actually design a car.

That's not the entire picture. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would suspect that the design of next seasons cars starts somewhere around autumn, especially for the teams that have a shot at the championship. What BAR/Honda did in 2008 was giving up on the current design in spring. They started to design the 2009 car in spring 2008 and didn't develop the 2008 design at all, accepting the poor results. That gave them about half a year of a head-start over their competitors for the 2009 design. Of course then some mindbogglingly dense bloke at Honda decided to withdraw from F1, only to see Brawn reap the rewards in 2009.
 

Dr_Grip

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IIRC they did the same thing last season as well... the result was much less impressive.
 

lukenwolf

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@Dr_Grip

Unlike 2008 they had several variables in the mix last year. The return of KERS, the new DRS and the unknown entity, which is/was Pirellis tires. So basically with so many unknow parameters, the head-start they had just wasn't worth a dime. Most of their early season problems came from reliability issues with the DRS and the fact that the car didn't quite work on primes. They seem to improve a bit, but I've got serious doubts that they can catch up with RBR or MCL as those two aren't idling around either.
 

rowd22

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