2012 Formula 1 Grand Prix of Europe

[Susurrate]

Maldanado v Hamilton was almost all Hamilton's fault, Hamilton pushed him to the outside while Mal was 70% along side him and then turned into him on the corner.

 

[buckers13]

You don't seem to understand racing.

Hamilton had the corner. He had the racing line. Maldnado chose to be in the wrong place, and instead of being patient, t-boned Hamilton out. Hamilton didn't have to give him any space at all. The drivers are allowed to shove people wide if they have the racing line.

Look at this.

This is the apex of the corner. Note Hamilton is in front and has the racing line. Maldonado is on the outside and out of position.
http://img444.imageshack.**/img444/9930/apexn.jpg

Maldonado is now off the track. Track limits are the white lines. All 4 wheels are off. He is not allowed to overtake from off the track, and must rejoin safely. Also, he is behind in this image. This is also where he should have decided to either brake and back off, or just cut the next corner and rejoin behind.

http://img844.imageshack.**/img844/3716/exitl.jpg

And now here comes the point of contact. Hamilton has actually left space for Maldanado as he doesn't go for the apex. But evidentially wasn't enough space. Note what way Maldanado's car is pointing. Pretty much not towards the apex or exit of the corner, but at Hamilton's sidepod.

http://img580.imageshack.**/img580/5015/contactzc.jpg

Pretty clear cut to me.

Sure Hamilton could have given room, and maybe he should have. But it was a lap and a half to go, and he was defending his position well enough.

Maldonado only had to wait for a little bit longer and the position was his. I reckon start finish he would have had Hamilton pretty easy. Any corner requiring a bit of traction. Instead he goes for one that was pretty easy to defend and made a hash of it.

By the way I'm not a Hamilton fan. But he did nothing wrong.

 

[Cobol74]

I agree - Maldonado is off the track, (the white line denotes the track) he should give way in this situation.

 

[That American Girl]

First off, I'm a huge Hamilton fan. I dunno why, but I am. But to me, I think that he caused the accident.

Sure, Pastor was reckless, but so was Hamilton. From what I saw, and in the diagram above...Hamilton may have had the racing line to start with, but with his tires completely gone, he was sliding and skating all over the track.

In his case, and with him still pushing the car so hard, an accident was inevitable in my opinion. It just happen to be Pastor who took the brunt.

He might have started in the right position, but even from the diagrams above...you can see he just slid completly so far over that Pastor had no choice (in the fraction of a second that this all took) but to be shoved off the track. And as far as the last pic is concerned, I think it was the fact that Lewis's car was fishtailing so much that is just pushed Pastor's car into that position. I don't think that either one of them had much of a choice as to how their cars were at that instant.

And if Hamilton had taken a last pit at around 40 laps for tires, he would have had enough traction to get the car out of the apex so the other car would have a chance to recover.

As it was, there was no way that Pastor could have known or should have been responsible for knowing that Lewis's tires were shredded and that he was about to go for a dance with him.

I understand that you have to push the edge to win at F1...but in my opinion, Lewis took a risky chance in using those tires, and this time he lost. Luckily no one was hurt.

 

[Gingertom]

The way I see the Hamilton Maldonado crash is this:

What Hamilton did was a legitimate move that you'll see time and time again (by drivers both overtaking or defending) at race meetings all over the world - hanging the other car out to dry by taking your racing line up to the kerb on the outside and making them either lose speed on the run-off or back out of it and concede. It's robust but completely and utterly fair and legal. What Maldonado should have done, as many others in the F1, GP2 and GP3 races that weekend did, was either back out of it and fall in behind or go across the chicane and rejoin the track. Maldonado should have been more patient as he would have known Hamilton's tyres had gone and he was basically a sitting duck.

Sky spoke to Mark Webber after the race; he commented on the crash and knew, even before he'd seen the replay, that Maldonado must have got up on the kerb, therefore lost steering and driven straight into the side of Hamilton. A more experienced driver (like Mark) wouldn't have made that mistake.

And I agree that Maldonado should have been given at least a 5-place grid penalty for the next race. Especially given that Vergne was given a 10-place penalty for moving over on Kovalainen.

 

[That American Girl]

The way I see the Hamilton Maldonado crash is this:

What Hamilton did was a legitimate move that you'll see time and time again (by drivers both overtaking or defending) at race meetings all over the world - hanging the other car out to dry by taking your racing line up to the kerb on the outside and making them either lose speed on the run-off or back out of it and concede. It's robust but completely and utterly fair and legal. What Maldonado should have done, as many others in the F1, GP2 and GP3 races that weekend did, was either back out of it and fall in behind or go across the chicane and rejoin the track. Maldonado should have been more patient as he would have known Hamilton's tyres had gone and he was basically a sitting duck.

That's true. But once you throw those tires with no grip at all into that mix, and it just wont work. Which it didn't.


I mean, yes, if he had waited to see what Hamilton's car would have done he probably would have known and wouldn't have crashed. But with just 2 laps left..I don't think that any other driver would have waited. To be honest, I think both of them should have a penalty for the next race.

 

[buckers13]

That's true. But once you throw those tires with no grip at all into that mix, and it just wont work. Which it didn't.


I mean, yes, if he had waited to see what Hamilton's car would have done he probably would have known and wouldn't have crashed. But with just 2 laps left..I don't think that any other driver would have waited. To be honest, I think both of them should have a penalty for the next race.

I'm sorry but, that is wrong. Hamilton had less grip, yes. But his car wasn't moving at all during those corners. It was planted. I must have watched the clip about 100 times now. The car isn't oversteering at all through those corners.

Gingertom is 100% correct, in that as soon as he was on the kerb, there will always be a crash.

In that situation, it didn't actually matter where Hamiltons car was, but where Maldonardo's was. It was off track with all 4 wheels. He had no right to even try and attempt to get past Hamilton. And Hamilton knew that he had just shoved Maldonardo off and was safe for the next corner.

 

[Dr_Grip]

Why do people keep saying this? The car has improved and is competitive, how many more podiums does Alonso need to disprove this belief?

You're right. The Ferrari is by no means a bad car. It was at the start of the year but they've made some massive improvements. Alonso more than deserves to be leading the championship, he and his team have maximised every race and points scoring potential while McLaren cant lose them fast enough.

I agree that Alonso is a worthy leader and that Ferrari have improved. But -and judging from the post-race interviews, Alonso agrees with me on that- the Ferrari by now is in faster than the Williams and the Sauber, on par with Merc and slower than McLaren, Red Bull and Lotus. Which means that Ferrari still have a long way to go. And makes Alonso's performance even more impressive.

 

[MOTORLOON1993]

Didn't Kimi make the exact same move on Hamilton the lap before, I think he backed off before arriving at the curb just like people are saying Maldando should have.

 

[hajj]

While Maldonado is to blame for this incident, Hamilton could have backed down and finished the race. Maldonado would have to give back the position he gained by overtaking off track.

 

[buckers13]

Didn't Kimi make the exact same move on Hamilton the lap before, I think he backed off before arriving at the curb just like people are saying Maldando should have.

Yes. But Kimi knew that he didn't have a chance around the outside, so braked early and tried to undercut. But Hamilton saw that early enough and defended well.


He could, but at that point, he didn't really have to. He had the corner, regardless and knew that it was safe. Any other driver would have backed out. It's not the first time they have collided remember. Maldonado seems to get the red mist pretty bad against Hamilton.

 

[SpitfireMK461]

While Maldonado is to blame for this incident, Hamilton could have backed down and finished the race. Maldonado would have to give back the position he gained by overtaking off track.

The point is that there was no reason for Hamilton to back off. The situation clearly shows Hamilton shouldn't have had to worry about a coming together since it would have taken a completely boneheaded move for that to happen, such as Maldonado trying to rejoin the track at the apex of a turn over a curb right into Hamilton's car.

 

[That American Girl]

While Maldonado is to blame for this incident, Hamilton could have backed down and finished the race. Maldonado would have to give back the position he gained by overtaking off track.

Yep. I think that with the botched pit from earlier, and the fact that with his tires gone he knew he was going to lose the position he had and would probably lose the podium finish...he just got desperate.


While I disagree with buckers, I do see what he's saying. I just don't agree 100%, that's all.

Yes, Pastor was wrong with his attack of the corner, but so was Hamilton. Hamilton should have known that he was about to make a huge mistake.

With just 2 laps left to go and a chance to get at least third, I think he decided to go for it, and it blew up in his face.

Edit:

I know they've come together before, and wonder if both drivers thought the other one would back down because of how silly it would be for either of them to continue in that corner. And how they could both claim it was the other persons fault and get away with it?

 

[Gingertom]

While Maldonado is to blame for this incident, Hamilton could have backed down and finished the race. Maldonado would have to give back the position he gained by overtaking off track.

True, but I don't think Hamilton (or any driver for that matter) would have expected Maldonado to do what he did.

 

[buckers13]

The point is that there was no reason for Hamilton to back off. The situation clearly shows Hamilton shouldn't have had to worry about a coming together since it would have taken a completely boneheaded move for that to happen, such as Maldonado trying to rejoin the track at the apex of a turn over a curb right into Hamilton's car.

Thank you! Finally!

Hamilton should have known that he was about to make a huge mistake.

How was he supposed to know that someone was going to make a formula ford rookie mistake? An F1 driver should know that you can't overtake from off track.

Jacques Villeneuve was talking about respect and etiquette at Montreal on the sky build up. This pretty much sums up his points perfectly. In that some drivers lack it.

 

[That American Girl]

How was he supposed to know that someone was going to make a formula ford rookie mistake? An F1 driver should know that you can't overtake from off track.

Jacques Villeneuve was talking about respect and etiquette at Montreal on the sky build up. This pretty much sums up his points perfectly. In that some drivers lack it.

That's true. I just wonder if Lewis was counting too much on Pastor not trying to overtake him at that point and got surprised when he did.

Then, with his car in that condition, he wasn't able to follow through and get out of the way like he may have planned. Either way, I think they're both responsible.

- - - Updated - - -

. Maldonado would have to give back the position he gained by overtaking off track.

Ahh, I didn't think about that.

 

[hajj]

The point is that there was no reason for Hamilton to back off. The situation clearly shows Hamilton shouldn't have had to worry about a coming together since it would have taken a completely boneheaded move for that to happen, such as Maldonado trying to rejoin the track at the apex of a turn over a curb right into Hamilton's car.

Well we are talking about Maldonado here :lol:. Schumacher and Webber were a lot faster, so I kind of understand that Hamilton tried to lose as little time as possible.

True, but I don't think Hamilton (or any driver for that matter) would have expected Maldonado to do what he did.

There is a first time for everything.

 

[jsausley]

Listen, guys... most of you have probably never tried racing before. I'll point out a few things.

In racing, it is ALWAYS the duty of the overtaking car to negotiate a safe pass. The driver in front and in the preferred line is not under any obligation to change his or her line whatsoever to accommodate another driver who is attempting a passing maneuver. In racing they teach us this because it is of paramount importance to the overtaking driver that he know what to expect from the car in front of him. When you are approaching a car and preparing for an overtake, you want to know where the car in front of you is going to be at a given time. If that car swerves to the side to make room for you, it is a case of erratic and dangerous driving that could lead to a serious accident. It is much preferred for the driver in front to maintain his line so that the overtaking car can attempt a safe pass and claim the corner.

In this case, Maldonado never made significant progress over Hamilton and therefore couldn't claim the corner. The duty was on him to negotiate a safe passing maneuver, which he did not do. Hamilton simply maintained his line as is taught to you in Racing 101.

Also, to add to the situation, the rules concerning track limits are very specific. Once a car has left the track he must only re-enter the track under safe conditions. Maldonado tried to squeeze in next to Hamilton on the next corner so he didn't lose more time, but in doing so he caused the accident. Therefore he is at fault in two cases.

He should have a 5 or 10 place penalty in the next race, at LEAST. This is basic Racing for Dummies here.

 

[Electric-Mayhem]

That all sounds completely right to me, and I agree.

I don't get why everyone keeps making the "his tires were dead so he should have just given up" statements. He was definitely struggling, but it was definitely noit a forgone conclusion that Maldonado would actually get passed him. People complain all the time that racing isn't exciting, but when someone keeps trying under hard circumstances (but still uses good racing technique and etiquette) they all say "he should have backed off". To me, thats complete BS and if anything Alonso and Vettel should have been trying this hard to stay in front during the last race instead of just giving up.

 

[jsausley]

That all sounds completely right to me, and I agree.

I don't get why everyone keeps making the "his tires were dead so he should have just given up" statements. He was definitely struggling, but it was definitely a forgone conclusion that Maldonado would actually get passed him. People complain all the time that racing isn't exciting, but when someone keeps trying under hard circumstances (but still uses good racing technique and etiquette) they all say "he should have backed off". To me, thats complete BS and if anything Alonso and Vettel should have been trying this hard to stay in front during the last race instead of just giving up.

Rep up. Hamilton did nothing wrong here (and as a fan I admit it's a bit odd to say that - often when there is contact between Hamilton's car and another car, he is the one who is at fault).