2012 Formula 1 Season Thread

[Cobol74]

Both organisations do excellent coverage IMHO. We are only talking around the edges. I must admit to being surprised at how good the Sky F1 coverage is, I thought that they'd 'cut to advert during an Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel threeway dice - but no the ads were skillfully integrated into the coverage.

Well done sky.

 

[Goondu86]

Fact of the season so far, listed by Enigma from F1 Fanatic:

- Charles Pic is the only current driver on the grid without any points to his name.

/boggle

Sauce at F1 Fanatic

 

[ahpadt]

For my money (literally) the best bits of the BBC'c coverage moved to Sky. Brundle is superb as always (the gridwalks are worth the subscription alone), Crofty is an excellent commentator, Ted Kravitz's insights and analysis and second to none and Ant Davidson's race/driving analysis is brilliant too. Some said Damon Hill was a bit boring but I think he has some good points to make and Johnny Herbert was a revelation in China, he's an absolute natural on TV and when he's not doing the FIA steward job Sky definately need to get him on. Maybe I'd swap Natalie Pinkham for Lee McKenzie but she's doing a decent enough job and on the whole Sky's coverage has been exemplary in both quality and quantity.

The blonde showgirl (that's her only job in Sky I think) and that Scottish reporter totally kills the Sky coverage for me. Terrible both of them.

 

[TestECull]

I'm absolutely loving 2012 so far. Red Bull is off-pace. The cars all sound good again now that those stupid blown diffusers are banned. McLaren is competitive for once. Ferrari and Sauber are having amazing showings despite absolutely horrible cars. Merc won for the first time since Fangio was driving, and the fight for 2-12 in China was amazing.


THIS is what F1 should be. More of this, Charlie! I love it when there's no dominant constructor or driver.

 

[Dr_Grip]

In a statement to German media Dr. Marko said that Vettel will be switching to the exhaust Webber used, effective immediately.

He went on trying to defend Vettel in saying that the car would be bad, thus Vettel would be lacking feel for the car, which in turn leads to less self-confidence and more errors. I think Marko not only once again showed that he's not a team player but also did a very bad job in defending Vettel. The Red Bull is far from being a dog like the Ferrari or some backbencher's car. What Marko is saying is that Vettel can't perform if he's not in the best car in the field. If one looks at what Alonso does with the Ferrari that shines quite a bad light on Vettel's talent.

By the way, I don't necessarily think Dr. Marko is right. I am just musing about the implications of his comment, if he would be right.

(src, in German, and a tabloid on top of it)

EDIT: I don't want this to turn into a Ferrari hatefest - I know the Ferrari is not a bad bad car. But it is even further below the team's expectations than the Red Bull.

 

[mpicco]

What Marko is saying is that Vettel can't perform if he's not in the best car in the field. If one looks at what Alonso does with the Ferrari that shines quite a bad light on Vettel's talent.

So that one time he won the Italian grand prix on the rain driving a very bad Toro Rosso must have been fairy spells

 

[TestECull]

So that one time he won the Italian grand prix on the rain driving a very bad Toro Rosso must have been fairy spells

I think Vettel has a talent for this sport, but needs a bit more refinement. He still has a ways to go, and I feel that, given a few years, he will be widely regarded as one of the greats alongside the likes of Schumacher. Right now he depends on either a complete fluke, rain races tend to be complete flukes, or the best car on the grid to win. He also needs to start from the front row, failing that, good pitwork to get him out front.



2012 will be a trying year for him with the car being off-pace and with sooooo many drivers vying for race wins, but I feel he will win a race or two and that he will improve tons as a driver.

 

[mpicco]

You can call him a bit lucky in 2010, with Alonso and Webber screwing each other out of the title at the very last race. But Webber had the same car last year and he wasn't even a shadow of what Vettel did. By your theory ("he's too young"), Webber should have smoked him by experience. I think it's well more of a case that the other teams finally caught up. It normally takes about 2 to 4 years of dominance for the other teams catch up... happened with Renault in 05-06, then Ferrari 07-08, and now Red Bull's run might be over, too.

With the Turbocharged V6s in the near future, I bet there's gonna be another scramble of the teams and another period of dominance by one of them.

 

[TestECull]

Look at how he won every race. Step 1: Get pole. Step 2: Get >1 second lead before lap 3. Step 3: rely on good pitwork to maintain at least that gap. Step 4: Win.


He's incredibly lucky he's in the team he's in. The car last year was the best on the grid by far, there's no denying that. Webber had no issue disappearing from the field as well. I honestly believe had he not been in that Red Bull in 2010 and 2011 he would not have back-to-back titles, so many poles, so many wins, bla-bla-bla records. I honestly believe that if he were in either the Fezza or the McLaren he would have done, on average, a 5th place finish. Good, but not quite top tier...and I do believe he will, eventually, be one of the greats. I don't think he's by any stretch a 'bad' driver. He's just young, a bit inexperienced, and somewhat spoiled by the 2011 Red Bull car.



For the record I feel the same way about Lewis Hamilton, albiet less of the "Spoiled by best car on grid" part since he sort of isn't, and he's the guy I cheer for when Schumy is parked because of some sort of breakdown.



On the V6s I don't hold much hope out that they will do much. All roads point to some fuel economy emissions bullshit, with the engines making roundabout 600HP. Fuck that shit. I can build 600HP out of a smallblock chevy in my back yard, 600HP is not impressive, least of all in a race car. I want to see twice that, I want to see the turbo motors spitting out so much power you need a set of brass ones with their own zip code to control the damned thing. I want to see these engines pushing so much power that the limits of metallurgy get pushed a bit farther along, where material sciences have to improve just to keep the pistons from melting.


I honestly do hope I'm wrong about the V6s and they turn out to be absolute animals. I really do.

 

[mpicco]

Look at how he won every race. Step 1: Get pole. Step 2: Get >1 second lead before lap 3. Step 3: rely on good pitwork to maintain at least that gap. Step 4: Win.

Well, yes, but just think about what you're saying. You're acting like that's an easy feat to do. I mean, if he had THE FASTEST car on the grid, well, damn, perhaps. But he has a team mate with the exact same car and many more years of experience not able to touch him at all. That says a LOT about the guy's driving skills.
Also you cannot blame him for being in a Red Bull. He came up through the Red Bull young driver's program, but who would have bet 2 cents on Red Bull 5 or 10 years ago?

On the point of him being spoiled and the comparison to Hamilton, if anything, the guy was more spoiled than Sebastian, going straight into a McLaren while Vettel had to be a test driver first, then getting a chance to drive, followed by an entire season on a downfield team, and then getting bumped to the big league.

I'm not personally cheering for Vettel, as it should be obvious. But there's no denying of his talents and speed, and I'll be surprised if he doesn't get at least 4 or 5 championships before he retires, many many years from now.

 

[TestECull]

Well, yes, but just think about what you're saying. You're acting like that's an easy feat to do.

It is when you've got the best car on the grid and some natural driving talent.

I mean, if he had THE FASTEST car on the grid, well, damn, perhaps.

But he did. Nobody could touch him. Nobody. Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, Button, Massa, NOBODY else could touch him. Once he got into first place it was his race to lose, whether by pit mistake, on-track bauble, or mechanical failure.

But he has a team mate with the exact same car and many more years of experience not able to touch him at all.

You're conveniently forgetting how Mark was able to pull away from the field as well. Mark was just as untouchable. also, Mark's car almost never had functioning KERS, and if it did, he rarely used it. Vettel seemed to adore hitting that little button. Honestly I don't know what the discrepancy between the two is, but the fact remains that the RB7 was in a class of it's own. The rest of the field may as well have been in GP2 cars.

That says a LOT about the guy's driving skills.

Quote where I've said he's a bad driver. Go on. Do it.

On the point of him being spoiled and the comparison to Hamilton, if anything, the guy was more spoiled than Sebastian, going straight into a McLaren while Vettel had to be a test driver first, then getting a chance to drive, followed by an entire season on a downfield team, and then getting bumped to the big league.

And yet he hasn't ever had the best car on the grid for two years straight. Hammy had to fight for every win he got, he had to fight for his one title, and he still struggles with pace from time to time.


Hammy is nowhere near as spoiled by the hardware. Vettel got the chance of a lifetime, slipping into Red Bull right as they came out with the RB6 and RB7, which are unquestionably the fastest cars on the grid in their respective years.


The only times those red bulls ever got overtaken on the track was when there was a mistake somewhere, whether it be a bad pit call, driver error, botched pitstop, something like that...and there wasn't much of those. As long as nobody made a mistake they'd 1-2 every race by at least half a minute.

I'm not personally cheering for Vettel, as it should be obvious. But there's no denying of his talents and speed

Nor have I ever said he's a 'bad' driver. Spend five seconds reading my post in it's entirety and you'll see that I've never once said he's rubbish or that he has no place on the grid. Much to the contrary he does have a natural talent and he will, in a few years time, be one of the greats.



I wonder how many more times I'll have to say that before you realize I'm saying that.

 

[MOTORLOON1993]

I wouldn't call a 1pt difference between the drivers championship dominant I remember the 07-08 seasons saw the Mclarens and Ferrari's level pegging it was pretty fantastic. I think Vettel's driving style suited the RB7 wether it was the Pirelli's or the Exhaust blown system or a combination of both whatever which gave him a whole lot of confidence in addition.

There was a similar situation between Raikonnen and Massa in 08/07 in 08 I think I recall Brundle saying the Ferrari was less tail happy and Massa perfered that. That said I do think Vettel is definitly a better driver overall just not by the margin that we saw in 2011.

 

[TestECull]

I don't consider the points to be proof of or disproof of a car's dominant status. You can win a championship with an utterly shit car. I consider how the car performs on track the indicator thereof, and there's no denying the RB7 was miles ahead of everyone else. It was near the bottom in the speed traps and still half a second to a second faster per lap than every other car on the grid every single weekend. It had so much more grip in the corners that nobody could touch it. It also, somehow, managed to be quite gentle on tires despite this, and the icing on the cake was that it was as reliable as the sun.


RB7 was the dominant car in 2011. There's no denying it was faster than everything else there. I don't think anyone will know why the RB7 was so fast, but it was.

 

[Pininfarina_]

Mark couldn't adapt to the stupid exhaust last year. Think about 2010 and now this year, his pace is somewhat on par with Vettel again. It was the RB7 that screwed him over and made him look like an amateur.

Regarding Vettel being spoiled by the fastest car, you could say the same about Hamilton. Compared to other drivers on the grid, I think both of them don't deserve what they have right now. Hamilton was basically spoonfed his entire career and so was Vettel. They never had to work up the tiers like Webber, Alonso, or Button and for that reason, I don't respect either of them as much as I respect these three champs.

 

[Dr_Grip]

Regarding Vettel being spoiled by the fastest car, you could say the same about Hamilton. Compared to other drivers on the grid, I think both of them don't deserve what they have right now. Hamilton was basically spoonfed his entire career and so was Vettel. They never had to work up the tiers like Webber, Alonso, or Button and for that reason, I don't respect either of them as much as I respect these three champs.

You can add MSC to the VET-HAM "spoonfed" camp.

Back in the nineties, a pre-fame, Minardi-driving Alonso even was the subject of a radio comedy show over here in Germany: "Alonso and Marquez" - the whole concept of the show was both of them qualifying last and not knowing what they were doing, with fake Spanish accents and everything.

 

[Pininfarina_]

You can add MSC to the VET-HAM "spoonfed" camp.

Back in the nineties, a pre-fame, Minardi-driving Alonso even was the subject of a radio comedy show over here in Germany: "Alonso and Marquez" - the whole concept of the show was both of them qualifying last and not knowing what they were doing, with fake Spanish accents and everything.

Hahahah oh god really? WHOS LAUGHING NOW!

To top it off, Webber was practically broke in his formula ford years.

 

[MadCow809]

I think Vettel has a talent for this sport, but needs a bit more refinement. He still has a ways to go, and I feel that, given a few years, he will be widely regarded as one of the greats alongside the likes of Schumacher. Right now he depends on either a complete fluke, rain races tend to be complete flukes, or the best car on the grid to win. He also needs to start from the front row, failing that, good pitwork to get him out front.



2012 will be a trying year for him with the car being off-pace and with sooooo many drivers vying for race wins, but I feel he will win a race or two and that he will improve tons as a driver.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... wait, WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

:lol:

Best joke I've heard in a while.

 

[lukenwolf]

Mark couldn't adapt to the stupid exhaust last year. Think about 2010 and now this year, his pace is somewhat on par with Vettel again. It was the RB7 that screwed him over and made him look like an amateur.

Regarding Vettel being spoiled by the fastest car, you could say the same about Hamilton. Compared to other drivers on the grid, I think both of them don't deserve what they have right now. Hamilton was basically spoonfed his entire career and so was Vettel. They never had to work up the tiers like Webber, Alonso, or Button and for that reason, I don't respect either of them as much as I respect these three champs.

That is entirely untrue. Vettel DID rise through the junior ranks as did Hamilton, but that was when their ways parted. When Hamilton entered F1, he did so in one of the biggest teams on the circuit. He had one of the most competative cars from day one, while Vettel had a part time drive with a mid-field BMW after Kubica's shunt and then had to prove himself in a Torro-Rosso, which definitely was NEVER a top car. His TR win at Monza was down to sheer driving skill, the car had nothing to do with it. You're comparing apples to oranges. Anyone saying that Vettel doesn't have what it takes has no idea about motor racing. Even in the best car you can't win a WDC without some talent. The only exceptions to that rule I can think of are Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve, who were not worthy of a race win, let alone a WDC. Those two truly won only due to an utterly superior car, but every champion since then has done it on talent, rather than the car.

As Mark has proven last year, even the best car in the filed has still to be driven to victory first. Something he failed badly at. Vettel may not be in the same league as Senna, Schumacher or Fangio, but he certainly is one of the better drivers on the circuit.

 

[lukenwolf]

EDIT: accidental double post. Sorry

 

[Pininfarina_]

That is entirely untrue. Vettel DID rise through the junior ranks as did Hamilton, but that was when their ways parted. When Hamilton entered F1, he did so in one of the biggest teams on the circuit. He had one of the most competative cars from day one, while Vettel had a part time drive with a mid-field BMW after Kubica's shunt and then had to prove himself in a Torro-Rosso, which definitely was NEVER a top car. His TR win at Monza was down to sheer driving skill, the car had nothing to do with it. You're comparing apples to oranges. Anyone saying that Vettel doesn't have what it takes has no idea about motor racing. Even in the best car you can't win a WDC without some talent. The only exceptions to that rule I can think of are Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve, who were not worthy of a race win, let alone a WDC. Those two truly won only due to an utterly superior car, but every champion since then has done it on talent, rather than the car.

As Mark has proven last year, even the best car in the filed has still to be driven to victory first. Something he failed badly at. Vettel may not be in the same league as Senna, Schumacher or Fangio, but he certainly is one of the better drivers on the circuit.

I never said Vettel was a bad driver, he is certainly talented. It didn't matter that he was in BMW or TR, he had a spot reserved for him at RBR.