2012 Formula 1 Season Thread

Though at the moment the superstar lifestyle might have scrubbed some of the speed away. Which brings us to Alonso, for managing to keep his personal life away from affecting his professionalism much. That is remarkable.

As for Vettel, he's doing nothing wrong except for some annoyances like the finger and that's about it.

Everybody manages to keep his professional and private life separate, except Hamilton. My theory is that nobody ever bothered to help him with that. Sure they probably told him, how he has to mention each of his sponsors at least once in an interview, but probably no one bothered to tell him, how to safeguard his family from the media vultures.

My theory is that this is down to two things. The first element is exposure. When Alonso started in F1, he was in a Minardi. Except for spanish TV, not too many people were interested in that spanish kid, who obviously hadn't yet grasped the concept of a razor. So Alonso "grew into it". He had medium media pressure at first and by the time he wound up at Renault, he had enough experience of how to keep the media types at distance. Hamilton was crowded and hailed as the best thing since sliced bread from day one, which leads to the second element - his father, who was whoring for any possible minute on TV instead of making sure that the media types leave his son enough space to breathe.

I remember a rather disgusting scene from the Brazlian GP, where Ham sealed his WDC. They had carted in his brother, who, IIRC has some sort of neurological ailment. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, if you make sure that the media leave him in peace - so nothing that two burly bodyguards can't fix. Instead they exposed him to the full media frenzy with reporters and camera crews crowding the poor bloke until he suffered some sort of seizure and collapsed to the floor like a sack of potatoes live on TV. I was sitting in shock and thought like 'how the hell do they let that happen to the poor boy? Why don't they just kick the vultures out of the garage?'. If they let that happen to his ill brother, how much protection do you think Lewis is afforded - none. He's been exposed to shit like that from day one and nobody bothered to help him with that.
 
The 2009 McLaren was a dog until the later half of the year. For actually finishing in the points, I have to tip my hat to Hamilton. That's the mark of a good driver. Though at the moment the superstar lifestyle might have scrubbed some of the speed away. Which brings us to Alonso, for managing to keep his personal life away from affecting his professionalism much. That is remarkable.

As for Vettel, he's doing nothing wrong except for some annoyances like the finger and that's about it.

In 2009 everyone got their shit wrong except Brawn and then everyone was in a rush to fix their stuff, except Brawn. McLaren was still on the top 3 teams even if their car was awful, so was everyone else's, except Brawn.
This year's car is not average at all. It showed it was fast and was the car to beat in the early season. The whole team seems unfocused and are paying for it, but not because of what they did or didn't do in pre season. They had a winner right from the start, and they've hit a bump now, but their platform is very good.
 
Well there is a need for a discussion here. Except for a few hardcore haters, you won't find too many people, who question Hamiltons talent. Did he have the talent to justify being drafted into the best car immediately? Yes, he did and still does. Was is a smart move? No, it wasn't.

People keep saying that drivers need to work their way up to a championship winning car. That's true, but not as a sort of initiation ritual, but to collect at least some experience and find their footing in F1, before they are exposed to the expectations and the media pressure that comes with driving a front-row car. Vettel and Hamilton are two drivers, which are good for comparison. Although Vettel was brought in some races earlier than Hamiltion, their careers have been more or less similar. Both worked their way up through junior formulae backed by major forces (McLaren and Dead Bull). But their F1 debuts is when their paths split. Vettel had an outing for BMW as sub for Kubica and then was drafted into the Torro Rosso, where not too many expectations where put before him. Beat your team mate and pick up a point here or there, that was all he had to do to be considered successfull.
Hamilton was expected to win from day one. He was never given the time to pick up some experience and find his footing. He was kicked into the deep end of the pool with some sharks in it and expected to be the fastest swimmer. He did a brilliant job in his first two years, but then the constant pressure did him in. He never had a mediocre car until this season. How's the guy supposed to know how to wring its neck or even develop such a car, when he never drove one before? Vettel spent enough time in the mediocre Torro Rosso to know how to drive around a car's weaknesses and how to tell the engineers what is wrong with the car. These are all experiences that Hamilton is lacking, because he was never given the chance to learn the trade in a lesser team, away from the big expectations.

So while many people think that he was "spoonfed", I would say they didn't do him any favours at all by exposing him to the pressure of a top team right from the bat.

You've pretty much summed up why I'm not a fan of Hamilton. The guy seems to enjoy the limelight and the inflation of his ego more than the pure driving itself.
 
BBC Sport said:
Lewis Hamilton says a decision on his future will depend on McLaren's ability to deliver him a title-winning car.


His McLaren deal ends this year and he says loyalty to a team who have backed him since he was 13 only goes so far.

He said: "There are a lot of things to take into account. These people have supported me; they got me into F1.

"But I want to win. I'm not that young any more so I want to make sure that whatever I do I make the right decision so I maximise my career."

Hamilton, 27, has had a frustrating season at McLaren so far this year.
The team started 2012 with the fastest car - the first time they have done so for some years.

But a series of operational problems have blunted Hamilton's championship charge and they have slipped from the pace in the last two races.

Hamilton, who was talking in an interview with Russia's R-Sport agency, said: "I've been ready all year to win. We should have won a lot more races than we have, but there's many more races to go. We still have a lot more chances to get some wins, and I think it's possible.

"Up until now we've not developed as fast as other people. Other people have brought some more upgrades in the past than we have, but we have a big upgrade coming for the next race, so let's hope that it does the job and gets us in a fighting position."

He added that he would not let such short-term problems affect his decision.

Hamilton said: "To be honest, you have to base your decisions on much, much longer than such a short period of time.

"Only half a year cannot decide six years of partnership, or actually 13 years of partnership. I've been with them since I was 13, so it's 14 years, so it's much more than these small details. It's a much, much bigger picture."

Hamilton's options are limited. He has been talking to Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari, but only Mercedes appears to be a viable option if he was to leave McLaren.

Mark Webber re-signed last week for another year at Red Bull, where Sebastian Vettel is under contract.

And although Felipe Massa's future at Ferrari is in doubt, Fernando Alonso is said to have vetoed Hamilton as his team-mate.

Equally, Ferrari want a driver for only one year as they hope to attract Vettel for 2014 - they have a non-binding pre-contract with the German for that season.

Source http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18857338
 
Hamilton's options are limited. He has been talking to Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari, but only Mercedes appears to be a viable option if he was to leave McLaren.

Mark Webber re-signed last week for another year at Red Bull, where Sebastian Vettel is under contract.

And although Felipe Massa's future at Ferrari is in doubt, Fernando Alonso is said to have vetoed Hamilton as his team-mate.

Equally, Ferrari want a driver for only one year as they hope to attract Vettel for 2014 - they have a non-binding pre-contract with the German for that season.

Some interesting stuff there.

Hamilton will not change teams unless he's moving to a clearly better team. That means Lotus or Mercedes would have to improve massively to attract him. In that case I think it's fair to say that he won't race for either of those teams.

Taking Massa's spot would be a good choice for Hamilton, but if Alonso refuses to race with him that won't happen. Ferrari would never choose anyone over Alonso, obviously. Clearly the best option for Ferrari then is to try and make a deal with someone like Kobayashi, Grosjean, Perez or so on. Someone who is good, but who will appreciate the chance to sit in a Ferrari and be okay with doing it for just one year (with the potential of extending the contract, pending a strong performance).

Finally, it's interesting that Ferrari is eying Vettel in 2014. That would be a great move for them, obviously, but I doubt Vettel would leave Red Bull while they are doing so well.

I think the teams will largely stay the same. Hamilton will almost be forced to re-sign with McLaren since no other strong seats will be available and Ferrari will pick up a strong intermediary driver to replace Massa and hope to hold out for Vettel. Hamilton could look for a Red Bull seat in 2014, if Vettel moves to Ferrari, but he will need to sign a one-year contract with McLaren for next year. Should be interesting to see how it goes.
 
The other main question is, does McLaren want to keep Hamilton? The obvious answer would be yes, but you never know.
 
The other main question is, does McLaren want to keep Hamilton? The obvious answer would be yes, but you never know.
Most of you know that I am a Button man, but right now, HAM delivers where Jenson does not. McLaren would be stupid to give him the boot, as long as he does not come up with some crazy-ass demands, money- or otherwise.
 
The other main question is, does McLaren want to keep Hamilton? The obvious answer would be yes, but you never know.

As I said on the last page, I expect they do want to keep him, I cant see anyone else of his calibre on the horizon with the possible exception of Vettel should he be tempted to move. Plus he's great for sponsors and if McLaren find themselves having to negotiate with a potential title sponsor, having him on board will help enormously.

I cant see why Ferrari would be interested in Vettel when they already have Alonso whom they love and adore, and he loves them. Why upset their star performer when they can hire someone who is perfectly average who is quick enough to give Alonso a kick every now and then and collect points for the team? And Vettel would be of the same mindset at Hamilton. He's not going to want to submit to being Alonso's number two. I guess it'd be worth hiring Vettel if only to destabilise Red Bull...
 
I cant see why Ferrari would be interested in Vettel when they already have Alonso whom they love and adore, and he loves them.

Choosing a driver is more than just loyalty and raw speed. In the last years testing has been reduced to a bare minimum and what you need is a driver, who can develop a car and can give the engineers some strong clues. I don't think Alonso is such a driver, while Vettel was romoured to match Schumacher in that regard as early as 2009 (Mateschitz said that in an interview). Alonso is the best, when it comes to driving around the weaknesses of a car, but I would suspect that he can't give the engineer much to work with to find out what is wrong. That would be the only logical reason for Ferrari to swap Alonso for Vettel. I can't see them both on the same team, mainly because of Alonso. What happens if he has an equally fast team mate could be seen when he paired up with Hamilton at McLaren. Neigther of them would accept a Number two role, which I think is pretty understandable, considering that both have two WDC's.

If I was in Montezemolos shoes, I would show Massa, where the builders have left the hole in the wall. Since he's been a loyal man to Ferrari, I would help him to a seat in one of the other Ferrari-engined teams, perhaps Sauber (how about a seat swap between Perez and Massa), but he certainly isn't strong enough for the A team anymore. I would hazard a guess that Massa could actually become better again in a lesser team, since a lot of pressure and expectation would be taken from him.
 
If Hamilton would be a #2 driver at Ferrari then surely Vettel would be it aswell? :?
 
I wouldn't go for Vettel, or Webber or Hamilton or any of the already established guys for that matter, if I had to take the shots at Ferrari. I'd bet on new talent, either from F1 right now (Perez) or from other series... It's time to find some young eager talent, like when Massa was brought in from Sauber.

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In the last years testing has been reduced to a bare minimum and what you need is a driver, who can develop a car and can give the engineers some strong clues. I don't think Alonso is such a driver

I beg to differ there. And I'm not an Alonso fan. It took Schumacher around 3 or 4 years to shape Ferrari up back in the mid 90s, and for Alonso it was more like a year. In 2009 Ferrari was in terrible shape, and in 2010, the championship was lost for a mere 4 points in the last race. 2011 was mediocre for everyone except Vettel, and in 2012 the car was decent at the beginning and has been well developed through the season.
So the engineers must be getting feedback from someone, and I dare say it's not Massa.
 
Ron Dennis said Alonso was amazing for the car's technical development when he was at McLaren. Why do we think he's not doing the same thing for Ferrari?
 
I beg to differ there. And I'm not an Alonso fan. It took Schumacher around 3 or 4 years to shape Ferrari up back in the mid 90s, and for Alonso it was more like a year. In 2009 Ferrari was in terrible shape, and in 2010, the championship was lost for a mere 4 points in the last race. 2011 was mediocre for everyone except Vettel, and in 2012 the car was decent at the beginning and has been well developed through the season.
So the engineers must be getting feedback from someone, and I dare say it's not Massa.

Apples and Oranges, Sir. When Alonso came to Ferrari, they were a highly effective and organized team as a result of the Schumacher era and had only gone two years since their last WDC. When Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 they were a complete bag o' balls and had gone without a WDC for over a decade. Their car was an utter dog. Engines blew up on the parade lap, it lost in the wind tunnel against a chunky cup board and parts fell off the cars after pit stops. And still Schumacher managed to take the championship fight into the last race in 1997 (which then ended with his infamous attempt to nerf Villeneuve off the road). Comparing the situations of 1996 and 2009 is impossible. If anything, Alsonso benefitted a lot from the ground work laid by Schumacher as several key players from the Schumacher years were still at Ferrari at the time.
Alonso sure did a lot to rebuild Ferrari into a championship contender, but his job was a lot easier than what Schumacher had to do to get them back on the road. Also, the 2009 Ferrari didn't have to go up against a ridiculously superior car like the Williamses still were in 1996/97. The first time they had to do that was against the 2011 Dead Bulls and we all saw how that worked out ;)
 
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Why on Earth would that be up for discussion? He beat the great Alonso in his first season in equal cars...

They both finished on 109 points in 2007.

Choosing a driver is more than just loyalty and raw speed. In the last years testing has been reduced to a bare minimum and what you need is a driver, who can develop a car and can give the engineers some strong clues. I don't think Alonso is such a driver...

O_O

Alonso was renowned while at Renault for having a great relationship with his engineer Simon Rennie and for the feedback he provided when developing the car. Even Ron Dennis at the start of 2007 said that Alonso was giving great feedback for developing the MP4-22. Did you even watch F1 then? Also, if Alonso (and Massa) aren't great development drivers how the hell can the piece of shit F2012 now be contending for race wins this year? You can't just bolt "go faster" bits and hope for the best. For example, Ferrari brought a new front wing with 4 slots in the endplate in Canada and tested it in the practice, but didn't race it. They then tested it in Valencia and Silverstone but still didn't race it. Of course they brought it to the races after seeing all the wind tunnel and CFD data which would have said that this was the "best" wing, but after actually driving with it the drivers provided the feedback that it wasn't in fact any better better than the old wing.

Ferrari was told to be radical at the end of the last season and to design a radical car. But then the engineers went and designed a total dog. However, ever since that first test session in Jerez, Alonso and Massa have been developing the cars gradually to the point where it is now.

Of course if you think Vettel and Hamilton are the bee's knees then that's fine and you're entitled to that opinion, but keep in mind that not everyone is going to agree with that.
 
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Apples and Oranges, Sir. When Alonso came to Ferrari, they were a highly effective and organized team as a result of the Schumacher era and had only gone two years since their last WDC. When Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 they were a complete bag o' balls and had gone without a WDC for over a decade.
Their car was an utter dog. Engines blew up on the parade lap, it lost in the wind tunnel against a chunky cup board and parts fell off the cars after pit stops.

I'm sorry, are you talking about the same Ferrari I'm talking about? Sure it wasn't a championship winner but it won races here and there, several second and third places. Never finished a constructor's championship lower than 4th in that period, with many 2nd and 3rd places as well. You're blowing it way overboard.

And still Schumacher managed to take the championship fight into the last race in 1997 (which then ended with his infamous attempt to nerf Villeneuve off the road). Comparing the situations of 1996 and 2009 is impossible. If anything, Alsonso benefitted a lot from the ground work laid by Schumacher as several key players from the Schumacher years were still at Ferrari at the time.
Alonso did pretty much the same for Renault. He CAN develop a car.
Alonso sure did a lot to rebuild Ferrari into a championship contender, but his job was a lot easier than what Schumacher had to do to get them back on the road. Also, the 2009 Ferrari didn't have to go up against a ridiculously superior car like the Williamses still were in 1996/97.

The 2009 Ferrari did go against a ridiculously superior car, the Brawn. The whole field did. The Red Bulls were coming into their own and the McLaren was in decent shape.
2009 was not like many years before it, the rule changes as we all know were huge and you can really talk about a "pre-2009" and "post-2009" era.

The first time they had to do that was against the 2011 Dead Bulls and we all saw how that worked out ;)

How DID it work out? we saw 1 of the "dead bulls" (stop calling them that, it's not clever nor funny) being completely dominant thanks to whatever divine inspiration, and the other coming 3rd, a mere point ahead of Alonso in the "dominated" car. Is that domination to you? Certainly doesn't look like 88 McLaren or 2004 Ferrari to me.

I just don't see how far your Alonso hatred can take you, I said I am not a fan of the man and I can still see his skills, but did his stint at McLaren leave you THIS bitter about him?
 
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How DID it work out? we saw 1 of the "dead bulls" (stop calling them that, it's not clever nor funny) being completely dominant thanks to whatever divine inspiration, and the other coming 3rd, a mere point ahead of Alonso in the "dominated" car. Is that domination to you? Certainly doesn't look like 88 McLaren or 2004 Ferrari to me.

I just don't see how far your Alonso hatred can take you, I said I am not a fan of the man and I can still see his skills, but did his stint at McLaren leave you THIS bitter about him?

The "divine inspiration" is called Adrian Newey. That's why Williams dominated from 1992-1997, McLaren 1998-1999 and Dead Bull in 2011. I cannot fathom, how you come to the conclusion that I hate Alonso :blink: I merely stated that there are several other car ridists with a "more pronounced" image as car developers - Panis, de la Rosa, Wurz and Schumacher to name a few. I don't hate him the least bit. If anything, his exploits this year make him the best driver of the lot by a mile. Mind you, having an image doesn't mean it is the truth. Alonso may be the best development driver there is, but if you think "best feedback" usually other names have been mentioned in that regard much more frequently.
 
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