2014 Car Launches and Testing Thread

Dr_Grip

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Ted Kravits mentioned though that from the start of the season, they won't be allowed to make any more performance modifications , so reliability and fuel economy upgrades only from Melbourne on?
I can't find anything on that in this article or in the regs.

EDIT: Yep, I actually read the technical regulations.
 
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lukenwolf

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Of course, that's a joke in F1 since someone will convince the FIA they need a bigger turbo to be "more reliable" (see: Red Bull demanding to be allowed to blow their diffuser more than the other teams for reliability reasons...)
Huh? Can you put that into perspective please or were you just having a go out of hatred? The diffusor blowing of RB did have nothing to do with the reliability of the engine. The diffusor blowing was achieved by the Renault 4-cylinder mode, which was in place before they were allowed to make engine modifications. :blink: Renault engineered it into their engine mappings which had to be submitted pre-season and were then frozen, which is why Ferrari and Merc couldn't copy it, because like Renault, they weren't allowed to modify engine mappings by more than two percent. I think you don't know what you're talking about.
 
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Dr_Grip

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Again, can anyone come up with a FIA document or anything that even remotely looks like a legit article that confirms the development freeze? There is nothing in the 2014 technical regulations, or at least I did not find it.
 

lukenwolf

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Again, can anyone come up with a FIA document or anything that even remotely looks like a legit article that confirms the development freeze? There is nothing in the 2014 technical regulations, or at least I did not find it.
AFAIK, gear box mappings, engine mappings and engines themselves are frozen at season start. You should be able to find it if you can stand the pain of wading through the massive rule book. Until 2019 gardual engine development is allowed in between seasons, but not during the season. The amount of possible development becomes more limited each year, too.
 

Dr_Grip

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AFAIK, gear box mappings, engine mappings and engines themselves are frozen at season start. You should be able to find it if you can stand the pain of wading through the massive rule book. Until 2019 gardual engine development is allowed in between seasons, but not during the season. The amount of possible development becomes more limited each year, too.
I just went through the sporting and technical regulations twice. They are full text searchable PDFs which makes it easier. The roadmap for the subsequent freeze until 2019 is there, but I can not find any reference to an in-season development ban.

EDIT: Engine development is explicitly mentioned as being forbidden during the 14-day August shutdown. That sounds like it is allowed during the rest of the year.
 
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GraemeH

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Huh? Can you put that into perspective please or were you just having a go out of hatred? The diffusor blowing of RB did have nothing to do with the reliability of the engine. The diffusor blowing was achieved by the Renault 4-cylinder mode, which was in place before they were allowed to make engine modifications. :blink: Renault engineered it into their engine mappings which had to be submitted pre-season and were then frozen, which is why Ferrari and Merc couldn't copy it, because like Renault, they weren't allowed to modify engine mappings by more than two percent. I think you don't know what you're talking about.
Keep your panties on and read up on Silverstone 2011. It was being covered in all F1 media, it wasn't a subtle affair. In the end they flipped, flopped, and went back to the way it was;

Charlie Whiting, the FIA's technical delegate, ruled that off-throttle blown diffusers qualified as a movable aerodynamic part because the concept used moveable parts within the engine to manipulate relative levels of aerodynamic grip, and were therefore illegal under the FIA's long-standing ban on moveable aerodynamic parts. The ban states that teams may only map their engines to use ten percent of available throttle power when under braking, with further restrictions to be introduced in 2012.[4] Adrian Newey, Red Bull Racing's technical director, admitted that his team had the most to lose from the ban on off-throttle blown diffusers because the Red Bull RB7 had been designed around the concept, in comparison to other teams who had simply applied it to their respective cars after the fact.[15]

Further controversy erupted on the Friday of the Grand Prix when it was revealed that the FIA had allowed Renault-powered teams certain concessions over the ban. Where the ban prevented teams from running engine maps that simulated throttle conditions of more than 10%, Renault had applied for a special exemption to the rule on the grounds that running at 10% of full throttle conditions adversely affected the reliability of their engines. The FIA granted the concession, permitting them to run up to 50% of full throttle.[17]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_British_Grand_Prix

As I said, there was going to be a fixed rule, they appealed because of "reliability reasons", in Dr. Evil air quotes. Just like this year engine manufacturers will make "reliability upgrades" to their engines during the year that allow them to add a performance benefit too.
 
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lukenwolf

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Keep your panties on and read up on Silverstone 2011. It was being covered in all F1 media, it wasn't a subtle affair. In the end they flipped, flopped, and went back to the way it was;



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_British_Grand_Prix
As I said, there was going to be a fixed formula, they appealed because of "reliability reasons", in Dr. Evil air quotes. Just like this year engine manufacturers will make "reliability upgrades" to their engines during the year that allow them to add a performance benefit too.

Seriously, you dug up something from 3 years ago?? :blink: But for the sake of argument, let's have a look at it. Renault built their engine in the expectation it would always run at a certain rpm tom provide exhaust gasses to seal the diffuser. The rules didn't forbid that at the time. What you do, if your engine runs a certain rpm is, that you minimize moveable parts, for instance the flywheel. Also you'll construct oild distribution in a way that is just fine, but depends on a certain level of average rpm, even under breaking. If someone then comes along and says you have to drop rpm (under breaking, which can be a significant part of the lap on some tracks) your engine won't be sufficiently supplied with oil anymore and/or just die because of the minimalistic flywheel. So in essence there certainly were reliability aspects. Now, don't get me wrong, Renault would've been idiots if they didn't sneak in a few upgrades while they were at it, but some reliability issues must have existed, else Ferrari and Merc would have protested the raw crap out of it.
 

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Renault would've been idiots if they didn't sneak in a few upgrades while they were at it.
Right, the engine manufacturers will continue to sneak in performance upgrades under the guise of reliability developments over the course of the current season.
My point didn't need a debate if you already agree with it :p
 

mpicco

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1980s F1 engines had more like 850-900bhp at their peak in race trim (in 1986, they took away power in '87 and '88 with pop-off valves), 1200+bhp was with the boost cranked up to 5 bar and the wastegates welded shut.

Also, they had a fuel allocation that gradually shrank over the years: 220 liters in '84-'85, 195 in '86, 180 in '87 and 150 in '88. The '88 fuel allocation for the turbo cars is close to what we have today, it's 100 kg now, which in liters should be somewhere between 130 and 150 depending on fuel density.
I totally meant Qualifying trim and had a brain fart.
 

Dr_Grip

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Right, the engine manufacturers will continue to sneak in performance upgrades under the guise of reliability developments over the course of the current season.
And I stand by the thesis that there's no need for this because there is nothing in the regulations about an in-season development ban!
 

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Seriously, you dug up something from 3 years ago?? :blink: But for the sake of argument, let's have a look at it. Renault built their engine in the expectation it would always run at a certain rpm tom provide exhaust gasses to seal the diffuser. The rules didn't forbid that at the time. What you do, if your engine runs a certain rpm is, that you minimize moveable parts, for instance the flywheel. Also you'll construct oild distribution in a way that is just fine, but depends on a certain level of average rpm, even under breaking. If someone then comes along and says you have to drop rpm (under breaking, which can be a significant part of the lap on some tracks) your engine won't be sufficiently supplied with oil anymore and/or just die because of the minimalistic flywheel. So in essence there certainly were reliability aspects. Now, don't get me wrong, Renault would've been idiots if they didn't sneak in a few upgrades while they were at it, but some reliability issues must have existed, else Ferrari and Merc would have protested the raw crap out of it.
renault didn't invent hot/cold blowing to seal the diffuser! they implemented it to extend the egines lifespan, newey managed to use that blowing, and they started to exploit it. the engines have been blowing long before there was any talk about coanda and sealing diffusers...
 

Dr_Grip

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thejudge13 is painting a VERY bleak picture for the Renault powered teams, suggesting it could take up to 20 weeks to sort major issues with the engine. Read it for yourself http://thejudge13.com/2014/01/30/f1-testing-jerez-day-3/
How can you guys believe this TJ13 guy? I could have written that blog post from my sofa, using nothing but the Autosport live blogging as a source. In fact, any factual claim he makes about the Renault engine has been made by me or someone else in this thread. He just uses buzzwords to create the illusion of insider knowledge. That guy's all pose and no substance.

EDIT: If McLaren will hire Brawn at any point before 2020, TJ13 will claim that he reported it first.
 
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Red_Bull

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How can you guys believe this TJ13 guy? I could have written that blog post from my sofa, using nothing but the Autosport live blogging as a source. In fact, any factual claim he makes about the Renault engine has been made by me or someone else in this thread. He just uses buzzwords to create the illusion of insider knowledge. That guy's all pose and no substance.

EDIT: If McLaren will hire Brawn at any point before 2020, TJ13 will claim that he reported it first.
Never said I believed him, only posted it as I thought it was of interest.
 

Dr_Grip

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Never said I believed him, only posted it as I thought it was of interest.
Wasn't directed especially at you. We had several posters referring to his "inside information" during the last weeks when all he really offers is hyperbole and web news roundups. But who am I to judge the judge :D
 
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ahpadt

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How can you guys believe this TJ13 guy? I could have written that blog post from my sofa, using nothing but the Autosport live blogging as a source.
Don't you think anyone can come across as an expert just if they dedicate enough time to reading news/forums and maybe have some kind of friend in the industry? For example, for all we know WillDAQ could just have a friend who works in the industry (he wants us to think he knows everything).
 
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