2016 USA Presidential Elections

Crazyjeeper

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Democracy is an encompassing term that includes Republics, Parliamentary systems, and direct Democracies. Direct or Classical Democracy is where everyone votes without a representative. A Republic (which I agree we are) means the state is based on the Roman Republican system. In the US there is nearly a 1:1 relationship for example.

You are correct, I should have specified. The US was never intended to be governed by simple majority vote.


I am also extremely happy we do not have Ted Cruz anywhere near the presidency. That man is far more dangerous than Trump.
 

argatoga

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My facebook feed is overflowing with retardation. It was amusing this morning but now it's just annoying. People are acting as if Hitler rose from the dead and brought the bubonic plague with him.

Tell them that if Hillary believed Trump was the next Hitler she wouldn't have conceded; nor would she have said this in her concession speech:

Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans.
...
Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/clinton-to-offer-remarks-in-new-york-city/
 

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Roe v Wade isn't going away

Given the number of Supreme Justices that he may potentially have the power to appoint, I wouldn't be so sure.

Trump is pro-LGBT.

Yes. He's so pro-LGBT he picked a guy that believes homosexuality is a disease that can be "cured" as his VP.

Obamacare is despised by everyone

No it isn't and I'm willing to bet a state like CA will homebrew their own version and strongarm the insurance companies to bow down, which I hope they do.

Honestly, why is everyone so freaked out?

Well to start, Trump has picked a Climate Change denier to dismantle the EPA and put the climate of our planet further out of balance.
 
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Mitchi

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Since this came up a lot in comments on the recent event - may I ask why everyone hates Obamacare? Is it really that costly for a normal person?

I can't imagine where the exact problem with a proper healthcare system is if it's done right. Just cancer once costs more than what pretty much everyone earns in twenty years.

Not wanting a healthcare systems just feels like a huge step in the wrong direction, sorry.
 

rickhamilton620

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No, actually, he didn't say he DID grope women on that tape. He said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that due to fame and money he *could* do that. If you listen to the entire segment or read the whole transcript... well, see my further comments below.

Fine, he "could" do that...I just find it weird and uncomfortable that he'd just say that out loud like it was no big deal. Ditto bragging about just automatically kissing people without the usual subtle social cues to wait. There was no "could" pretense to that section of tape.

Anyway that was just merely one issue in a list that I have with him. I don't like Clinton either for various reasons.

Fuck, man, get the fuck out of rural shitkicker PA and into a city. Go to some concerts, check out the entertainment world. Fucking groupies (in all senses of the words) are exactly like what Trump described. A number of rock stars are famous for using women, willing women, and all their bodily orifices as ash trays - FUCKING ASH TRAYS - and you're all up in arms about a fucking hypothetical grope? Others are famous for grabbing groupies' nipples and pulling them around their tour bus or doing worse - and the groupies happily agree to this. Everyone knows groupies are like this. Except, perhaps, you.

We discussed the groupie thing over PM. I go to concerts all the time, at least once a month. Again I'm aware of the groupie phenomenon - willing women who want to have some fun with a famous guy, fine if that gets ya going, cool. whatever.

Just to put it out there though, this was no rando average person groupie, but a actress from Days of Our Lives who was supposed to welcome Donald and escort him to the set. She seemed to handle Billy's "assistance" like a pro and gave Donald a hug and let him peck her on the cheek. So I'll concede that, at least visually, she seemed fine with the interaction.

The other thing that you don't seem to have figured out is that if an inappropriate grope did happen, he would have long before been sued for megabucks - given that this was 2005 - and he wasn't.

That's a possibility, sure. If, however, a grope of any woman occurred, there's plenty of reasons why a woman would feel like they couldn't report/sue, as shitty as it is.

Furthermore, Hillary herself took the issue out of possible play long ago. She and her husband stated that Bill's illicit, unethical and predatory affair with Monica Lewinsky was "just sex" and should not have been any issue. Game over.

All of the reports I've found so far have stated that the Lewinsky affair was consensual and both were eager for it, as immoral (and unethical - yes, she could have filed a EEOC claim) as it was.

Yes, I know about the allegations on his side as well, but one could make the argument that he's not running for president (and if one suggests that yes, he was, and would have run the show in the background a'la what some accuse Dick Cheney of doing, I'll counter that with the fact that, because Trump is politically clueless, some could see Mike Pence doing the same in a Trump administration).

I also think Bill's a creepy asshole too, I'll admit that.
 
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Spectre

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Since this came up a lot in comments on the recent event - may I ask why everyone hates Obamacare? Is it really that costly for a normal person?

I can't imagine where the exact problem with a proper healthcare system is if it's done right. Just cancer once costs more than what pretty much everyone earns in twenty years.

Not wanting a healthcare systems just feels like a huge step in the wrong direction, sorry.

We actually had a brief discussion about this a year or so after Obamacare was adopted. The whole thing is a giant bureaucratic clusterfuck; the easiest way to deal with this would have been to expand the existing Medicare system (which was government funded healthcare for seniors), but instead what we got was a monstrosity that couldn't and can't possibly work. And they basically shut down Medicare which as bad as it was had actually some semblance of functionality.

Let's use my own personal situation. Under Obamacare my insurance went from under $1200 a year to $3700. I went from having a $250 deductible to a $5500 deductible (yes, that means I have to pay out an additional $5500 before I can start getting reimbursed or covered), a lot of things that used to be covered weren't any more, many good clinics and physicians will not accept an Obamacare plan because it has ridiculous paperwork requirements, and I've just been informed my premium for this shitty ass Bronze plan (the cheapest one) is going up 47% next year. It's a giant fucking mess and hey, guess what? I won't be able to afford health insurance next year because I make just a little more than the upper limit for subsidies. Even those with subsidies are getting similarly shafted. I didn't get to keep my plan, I didn't get to keep my doctor, basically everything that was promised has turned out to be one big fucking lie.

But hey, I can have all the birth control pills, sex changes and maternity coverage I need! 'Free!' (I'm a hetero male who had no need of those coverages, which I no longer have the legal ability to reject.)

That good enough for you?

- - - Updated - - -

Fine, he "could" do that...I just find it weird and uncomfortable that he'd just say that out loud like it was no big deal. Ditto bragging about just automatically kissing people without the usual subtle social cues to wait. There was no "could" pretense to that section of tape.

1. There are fucking POP SONGS about pretty much doing that. Also, bragging about that sort of thing is, as he pointed out, something that men actually do in private. 'Locker room talk' is one way to classify it; I heard worse from the high school football team at their cafeteria table. "It's good to be the quarterback, you can do *anything* to these cheerleaders!"

2. There are actually a surprisingly large amount of people who do exactly that. Or were - they're mostly older and their numbers are dwindling. Different standards for different times. Unfortunately one of them is my idiot aunt.

Anyway that was just merely one issue in a list that I have with him. I don't like Clinton either for various reasons.

-shrug- Not asking you to like him, just apply critical thinking and learn about why pretty much nobody paid any attention to that event.

We discussed the groupie thing over PM. I go to concerts all the time, at least once a month. Again I'm aware of the groupie phenomenon - willing women who want to have some fun with a famous guy, fine if that gets ya going, cool. whatever.

Um, you actually need to go back and read the PM I just sent you. I don't think you *quite* understand the groupies' well earned 'reputation.'

Just to put it out there though, this was no rando average person groupie, but a actress from Days of Our Lives who was supposed to welcome Donald and escort him to the set. She seemed to handle Billy's "assistance" like a pro and gave Donald a hug and let him peck her on the cheek. So I'll concede that, at least visually, she seemed fine with the interaction.

And I have little doubt she would have sued if she wasn't, given that it was 2005.

That's a possibility, sure. If, however, a grope of any woman occurred, there's plenty of reasons why a woman would feel like they couldn't report/sue, as shitty as it is.

True, but as any number of moguls in Trump's position have found out, it's extremely unlikely that they won't - especially since the 2000s. And especially since the press have had some *huge* cash rewards out to get any dirt on Trump for the past 30 years, let alone when he decided to run for President.

All of the reports I've found so far have stated that the Lewinsky affair was consensual and both were eager for it, as immoral (and unethical - yes, she could have filed a EEOC claim) as it was.

Immoral, unethical and *illegal.*

Yes, I know about the allegations on his side as well, but one could make the argument that he's not running for president (and if one suggests that yes, he was, and would have run the show in the background a'la what some accuse Dick Cheney of doing, I'll counter that with the fact that, because Trump is politically clueless, some could see Mike Pence doing the same in a Trump administration).

The problem with that isn't actually Bill. The problem is what Hillary did to the women that accused him - and the fact that she continued to enable him.
 
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Mitchi

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We actually had a brief discussion about this a year or so after Obamacare was adopted. The whole thing is a giant bureaucratic clusterfuck; the easiest way to deal with this would have been to expand the existing Medicare system (which was government funded healthcare for seniors), but instead what we got was a monstrosity that couldn't and can't possibly work. And they basically shut down Medicare which as bad as it was had actually some semblance of functionality.

Let's use my own personal situation. Under Obamacare my insurance went from under $1200 a year to $3700. I went from having a $250 deductible to a $5500 deductible (yes, that means I have to pay out an additional $5500 before I can start getting reimbursed or covered), a lot of things that used to be covered weren't any more, many good clinics and physicians will not accept an Obamacare plan because it has ridiculous paperwork requirements, and I've just been informed my premium for this shitty ass Bronze plan (the cheapest one) is going up 47% next year. It's a giant fucking mess and hey, guess what? I won't be able to afford health insurance next year because I make just a little more than the upper limit for subsidies. Even those with subsidies are getting similarly shafted. I didn't get to keep my plan, I didn't get to keep my doctor, basically everything that was promised has turned out to be one big fucking lie.

But hey, I can have all the birth control pills, sex changes and maternity coverage I need! 'Free!' (I'm a hetero male who had no need of those coverages, which I no longer have the legal ability to reject.)

That good enough for you?

Yes. Thanks for an in-depth answer. Wasn't even meant harshly
 

Spectre

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Yes. Thanks for an in-depth answer. Wasn't even meant harshly

I didn't think it was, I figured you had a genuine question. I apologize if my reply came across as angry, even though I am more than a little steamed about this premium increase - just got the letter in today's mail. I knew there was an increase coming and that others had found the Obama administration had lied about how much it was going to be.

There is a growing suspicion among many that Obamacare's real purpose was to break the existing healthcare systems and make people clamor for it to be replaced with a 'simpler' single-payer system of healthcare run by the government directly. Which you'd think might not be so bad... unless you've actually seen what our government thinks government run healthcare is. It's called the Veterans' Administration. Remember them? The ones that shit all over the vets they were supposed to be caring for, got caught at it, then got away with just a slap on the wrist from the Obama administration? Those guys?

To save myself some typing, I'll just quote my prior statements on that.
The US has had its experiment with government run health care. It was called the pre-reform Veterans' Administration hospital system. What we had there was *worse* in the best hospitals in that system than some of the worst hospitals in Soviet Moscow. No joke. It was that bad. How do I know? My father is a vet, and he took me on a tour of the LA-area facility back in the 1980s, before the reforms were implemented under Reagan. The LA facility was supposed to be one of the crown jewels of the system; it was filthy, nothing worked, the staff didn't care, pages were ignored, patients were unattended and apparently unmonitored.... I have seen more attractive visions of Hell in a fever dream than the reality of that hospital.

Universal health care, if implemented in the US, will be a total failure. You do not want the US government running anything if you can avoid it.

And, very specifically, in what many people have experienced in our currently-government run health care system, the VA Hospital system. That's Veterans' Administration, the healthcare system for our disabled and retired military - and everyone in the US knows just what a total nightmare the VA system was. It's gotten a lot better, but that's only very recently and it shows signs of going back to the bad old ways.

It's government run healthcare, and it's the reason why most Americans are against government-run healthcare in the US. It made the blundering, rationing incompetence that is the Brit NHS look like gods in comparison. The majority of people have experienced the VA's tender mercies in person, have/had a loved one that did, or knew someone who got screwed by the VA. My father is one of those people that discovered how bad the VA was in the 1970s...
 

MacGuffin

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2016 USA Presidential Elections

It's interesting to see how everyone is trying to find a way of coming to terms with the result of the elections. There is no choice now: America (and the world) has to endure a president Donald Trump for at least four years. No need to discuss the ifs and whens - the drop is sucked, as we say in Germany.

alea iacta est.

But if I was an American, I would carefully watch out for any signs from Trump's side to undermine the democratic and tolerant foundation of the USA. Namely I would carefully observe how he deals with critics and critical media. He might not be the sexist, racist pig he performed in his campaign but I'm quite sure that he is an egomaniac and that he has a problem accepting criticism.

The main question is not if he'll start WW III -- that's rubbish. The main question to me is: Can he be a person that is being respected by educated people? Will he be respected by fellow statesmen throughout the world or will it be a case of Trump playing the role of the embarrassing cousin nobody likes but who can't be ignored in family meetings, the one everyone makes funny jokes about? And how will he react when he realizes nobody is taking him serious?

Or: Will he be a narziss you can charm into doing what you want? Is he manipulable by more experienced and far more cunning politicians like Putin? Because if he turns out to be a weak president on an international level, if he starts drawing back the USA from the international stage, there are other countries waiting in the wings to fill the gap...

Right now I am very interested in hearing something like a plan from him for his presidency -- because short of a few platitudes and banalities he hasn't said anything about his program. Who will be his staff, who will he choose for his government? Will he choose competent people for that or will he recruit sycophants? That'll be very interesting.

I suppose we won't have to wait for very long in order to make a guess about how successful his presidency can be...
 
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93Flareside

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Since this came up a lot in comments on the recent event - may I ask why everyone hates Obamacare? Is it really that costly for a normal person?

I can't imagine where the exact problem with a proper healthcare system is if it's done right. Just cancer once costs more than what pretty much everyone earns in twenty years.

Not wanting a healthcare systems just feels like a huge step in the wrong direction, sorry.

It increased private insurance dramatically because of forced items the government wanted to have the insurance companies cover. The ACA isn't really that affordable and is very limiting on where you can get care from.

Personally, it was executed poorly and needs to be looked over by people who know what healthcare is and not by a guy in an office.
 

LeVeL

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Given the number of Supreme Justices that he may potentially have the power to appoint, I wouldn't be so sure.
Have you actually read the case? It centers around privacy and due process - no way it's getting overturned.


Yes. He's so pro-LGBT he picked a guy that believes homosexuality is a disease that can be "cured" as his VP.
Get your head out of CNN's ass.

He supported prosecuting hate crimes against gays.
Last year he said that gay marriage is a reality after the SCOTUS ruling.
This year he said that sexual orientation is not acceptable grounds to fire an employee.

And very recently he became the first ever candidate to do this:

nintchdbpict000278685419.jpg




No it isn't and I'm willing to bet a state like CA will homebrew their own version and strongarm the insurance companies to bow down, which I hope they do.
Democrats hate Obamacare. Even Hillary said it sucks.


Well to start, Trump has picked a Climate Change denier to dismantle the EPA and put the climate of our planet further out of balance.
He just doesn't think it's man-made and is outraged at the vast resources spent fighting it.


Since this came up a lot in comments on the recent event - may I ask why everyone hates Obamacare? Is it really that costly for a normal person?

I can't imagine where the exact problem with a proper healthcare system is if it's done right. Just cancer once costs more than what pretty much everyone earns in twenty years.

Not wanting a healthcare systems just feels like a huge step in the wrong direction, sorry.
Spectre already addressed this but just to add my own experience: both my deductibles and my premiums have been going up every single year. It leaves less money in my pocket each pay period, yet I have to pay more out-of-pocket during doctor visits.


But if I was an American, I would carefully watch out for any signs from Trump's side to undermine the democratic and tolerant foundation of the USA. Namely I would carefully observe how he deals with critics and critical media.
You're thinking of Hillary - she's the one that had the media shilling for her and she's the one that rigged the primary.


Can he be a person that is being respected by educated people?
All the engineers and doctors I know that voted for Trump would probably say "yes". Get off your high horse.


Will he be respected by fellow statesmen throughout the world or will it be a case of Trump playing the role of the embarrassing cousin nobody likes but who can't be ignored in family meetings, the one everyone makes funny jokes about?
Well, considering that almost every foreign leader who congratulated Trump on winning made sure to emphasize their country's close relationship and friendship with ours, I'm pretty sure he is respected.

Also, there's this:

xsudoyzxhqwx.jpg


It's a bit of a contrast to this:

obama_bow_1381505c.jpg




Or: Will he be a narziss you can charm into doing what you want? Is he manipulable by more experienced and far more cunning politicians like Putin? Because if he turns out to be a weak president on an international level, if he starts drawing back the USA from the international stage, there are other countries waiting in the wings to fill the gap...
The USA's role on the international stage has been to protect and coddle allies, namely Europe, and getting scolded and criticized in return. It would be nice if you guys took care of your own shit for once, just like it would be nice if we didn't do 99% of the UN's work. I'm not suggesting we break ties but I do agree with Trump that our allies should be doing more.
 

kurthest

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The main question is not if he'll start WW III -- that's rubbish. The main question to me is: Can he be a person that is being respected by educated people? Will he be respected by fellow statesmen throughout the world or will it be a case of Trump playing the role of the embarrassing cousin nobody likes but who can't be ignored in family meetings, the one everyone makes funny jokes about? And how will he react when he realizes nobody is taking him serious?
Tbh, I think the chance of a WW III would be much greater with Hillary Clinton at the wheels.
WW III will be fought with the pushing of red buttons from presidential suitecases, and Hillary Clinton has been very vocal about Russia, Putin and Syria.
She wanted to enforce a no fly zone over Aleppo, which would probably lead to direct conflict with the russians.
On the surface, it seems Trump would rather pull efforts from Syria (and other places) rather than escalate.
 

MacGuffin

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Well, considering that almost every foreign leader who congratulated Trump on winning made sure to emphasize their country's close relationship and friendship with ours, I'm pretty sure he is respected.

Congratulating him is an act of politeness. Not doing so would be a diplomatic affront.

And that's all it is. Just politeness. Nothing more.

The USA's role on the international stage has been to protect and coddle allies, namely Europe, and getting scolded and criticized in return. It would be nice if you guys took care of your own shit for once, just like it would be nice if we didn't do 99% of the UN's work. I'm not suggesting we break ties but I do agree with Trump that our allies should be doing more.

Personally I'd love to see Europe take on a much bigger role on an international level.

I'm afraid, though, that a power vacuum left by a retracting USA would be filled by Russia and China.
 

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Currently too many different agendas. It's as simple as that.
 

LeVeL

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So you constantly criticize and ridicule the USA but you desperately need us to watch over you and keep you safe from Russia and China. See the problem with that?


Anyways, article:

Dear Democrats, Read This If You Do Not Understand Why Trump Won

Trump Is What Happens When You Nominate A Cheater and Live In An Echo Chamber?Please Learn From This

Did you read Wikileaks?

Well, you should have.

The ?conspiracies? were true, and the mainstream media lied to you to about everything.

Wikileaks was not Russian propaganda, it was the news.

Wikileaks has a 10-year record of never releasing a single falsified document, and is not connected to Russia. Everything they released were the actual e-mails of Hillary Clinton and her campaign staff. You had the opportunity to look through a window into the Hillary Clinton campaign, but you didn?t.

By ignoring the leaks, you ignored reality.

By not listening to your fellow Americans, and accusing them of being ?conspiracy theorists? and trusting the corporate media, you ignored reality. By only following other liberals on social media, and only reading liberal or corporate news, once again ignoring reality. When Hillary Clinton was caught rigging the primary against Bernie Sanders, and Democrats nominated her anyway they ignored reality.

Everyone was simply insulating themselves within their own echo chamber ignoring anything outside their bubble.

The Media Lied To Us About EVERYTHING

If you?ve been following my Twitter or Facebook account during this 2016 election you probably would have thought I was a Trump supporter. However, I am a former registered Democrat, a Bernie supporter, and consider myself a progressive libertarian. This was the first election I ended up voting 3rd party, but my second choice was Trump. I simply could not vote for Hillary Clinton because of her mishandling of classified information, and stealing the nomination from the people?s choice Bernie Sanders.

Hillary never should have been nominated in the first place. The first clue was when she was under FBI investigation, and the second clue was when she rigged the primary elections.

In an attempt to inform my friends, family, and followers I posted dozens if not hundreds of Wikileaks e-mails, and tweeted alt-right news just as much as I did liberal news. I did this because most of my followers are liberals, and I realized they were all living in an echo chamber on social media where they were not being exposed to differing opinions or news. I was mostly rejected by liberals for doing this, they didn?t understand why I was sharing things that made them uncomfortable, but now they know why. Ironically, I got far more support from Trump supporters for trying to tell Democrats the truth. I wasn?t expecting that.

I took it upon myself to understand Trump, and his supporters. What I found was millions of great Americans who had been disenfranchised, normal people like you and I, who did not recover from the Great Recession. They?re pissed off about Obama Care, endless wars, trade deals that have killed jobs, higher taxes, a rigged economy?and, they are not wrong.

Had Democrats taken the concerns of average American seriously, especially the concerns of Millennials, they would have quickly realized Hillary Clinton was not the right nominee for the Democratic party in 2016.

Bernie Sanders Would Have Beat Trump

I 100% believe Bernie Sanders could have created a political revolution to beat Trump, but instead we?re getting Trump?s revolution.

The reason Hillary Clinton did not win this election is because she never should have been nominated in the first place. There was a better choice.

Democrats let Hillary hijack the DNC, and use her corporate money to push everyone around. Meanwhile, she used Correct The Record to poison the minds of people online into isolating themselves with paid Hillary trolls. Had Democrats paid attention to the leaks they would have seen the mountain of evidence that told the world that Hillary rigged the primaries against Bernie Sanders, and was illegally coordinating with Super PACs like CTR. She should have been disqualified. The evidence is on Wikileaks.org.

Meanwhile, the media, and social media kept everyone ignorant and isolated from differing opinions. They lied to us, manipulated us, and made us think the rest of the country agreed with us, when they didn?t. They used their position of authority to mislead us into believing in a false reality?in propaganda.

This is the problem with America today, the technology that was supposed to bring us together actually isolated us into echo chambers and drove us further apart.

Getting the news from just your friends is a logical fallacy, you need to know your enemies, and realize they?re not much different from yourself.

There Is Good News

While you weren?t paying attention, Trump is actually a former Democrat. If you study his actual values he has far more in common with traditional moderate or liberal values than he does a traditional conservative. In fact, Trump may even be more liberal than Hillary Clinton on several issues.

The media prevented any kind of discussion on values, and instead focused on rhetoric and propaganda. So most Americans who immediately defaulted to what the media and Clinton campaign told them never took the time to actually get to know Donald Trump. They just watched the jokes on SNL, and corporate media blindly without considering other sources. While I?m still unsure about Trump myself, we at least know politically he?s actually a New York Democrat in Republican clothing (this is why the Republican establishment rejected him).

You also need to consider Donald Trump just overthrew a group of political elites who have been ruling this country for decades. He just beat the political establishment singlehandedly. No matter what you think about him personally, he just accomplished something historic to become our President.

At the end of the day, this is an opportunity to learn and grow and consider another world view. This is a wakeup call to get out of safe spaces, politically correct thinking, shatter echo chambers, and challenge yourself to consider the other side of the fence. This is an opportunity to reach out and truly learn to understand each other.

We all have to come together to solve any real problems with our country in the next 4-years. This election was a lesson to consider all ideas equally, regardless of established authority.

We need to come together and move forward together.
 

Interrobang

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Why is that? Why couldn't Europe as a whole come together and help fill that gap?

During the last couple of years, european Nationalists not unlike Trump have been working very hard pulling the EU apart. A lot of people in Europe would still like Europe to take more control concerning world politics, but as it is now the EU has to solve it's inner Problems first or this is going for bigger ambitions.

[...]
On the surface, it seems Trump would rather pull efforts from Syria (and other places) rather than escalate.

Some british tabloids have been running this story today ...
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/730714/donald-trump-ISIS-Islam-terrorist-al-Qaeda-jihadi
ISIS jihadis brand Trump a ?DONKEY? who will destroy the US as they celebrate election win
ISLAMIC State militants have lauded Donald Trump?s election victory claiming Islamist terrorists will seize control when the billionaire destroy?s the US.
Jihadis branded the newly-elected President a ?fool? and a ?donkey?, warning that they plan to seize power when he destroys the country and prayed for carnage in the country.
The terrorist group claimed Trump?s election is ?an indication of the end of the American empire?.
[...]

Terrorists seem indeed quite happy with the results of the Us election. I hope they are wrong, but when you say he'd pull efforts from syria - this makes sense that they would expect their chances of "winning" to improve.

So you constantly criticize and ridicule the USA but you desperately need us to watch over you and keep you safe from Russia and China. See the problem with that?[...]

Yeah, it's untrue that's the problem. "We" don't need the Usa to keep "us" safe. We could do that without the Us. Europe outspends China and Russia when it comes to the Military.
In fact In Europe a lot of countries would like the Us to leave the military bases they've installed after WW2. So far it's been the Us that did not want to reduce their geopolitical power by abandoning their bases and "we" have let you keep those because we're allies. Trumps claim that Us military bases abroad "defend" other countries is wrong. Those are american interests to keep those bases.
 
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prizrak

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Yeah, it's untrue that's the problem. "We" don't need the Usa to keep "us" safe. We could do that without the Us. Europe outspends China and Russia when it comes to the Military.
In fact In Europe a lot of countries would like the Us to leave the military bases they've installed after WW2. So far it's been the Us that did not want to reduce their geopolitical power by abandoning their bases and "we" have let you keep those because we're allies. Trumps claim that Us military bases abroad "defend" other countries is wrong. Those are american interests to keep those bases.

Can't speak for China but one of the reasons is that Russian military hardware tends to be much cheaper. US (and really as a result European) military hardware is hugely overpriced due to many factors.
 

MacGuffin

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That's not what Mac said. Also, Trump wants less US intervention and for our allies to do more on their own so you should be happy that he won instead of hawkish war-mongering Clinton.

I wish the world was as simple as you seem to perceive it...
 
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