5 freedoms you'd lose in health care reform

nomix

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Sorry, Steve, but my system works for everybody. Yours don't. Mine is cheaper. Yours is more expensive.

If we're to look at personal stories, my father has had cancer, a heart attack, open heart surgery a couple of years later, when he fell and hurt his back badly he was picked up by ambulance BOAT at our summer place, an island far from anything within one hour, had it been critical, there would have been a helicopter there withing half an hour.

He's not presented with a clip board. He's not asked to provide his insurance information, heck, with his medical history, he doesn't even have to pay five times the tax he did before his illnesses.

You republicans are all for people pulling themselves up by their boot straps, aight? How do you do that if you're a virtual crippel and bankrupted?

Christ..
 

Steve Levin

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Sorry, Steve, but my system works for everybody. Yours don't. Mine is cheaper. Yours is more expensive.

The trouble with that is that there are always tons of individual stories.

There are more than 250 million Americans with outstanding health care coverage that don't experience any of these issues, and get health care of a far higher standard than any of the European nations.

Those hundreds of millions of people have no interest in the long waits and limited choice that the nationalized systems provide.

And as Americans we are working to develop a system that provides good care for everyone. We don't want the fallback of 'crap coverage for everyone' -- that's an acceptance of failure that Americans just don't ascribe to. I certainly don't want MY health coverage to be crappy!

You have to be a total idiot to think that the only options in the world are crappy cheap coverage for everyone or good coverage for some.

For someone that prides themselves on saying "health care is a right" you continually overlook that Norway's health care has some of the longest wait times in Europe. How is that right? In my book, that's just a scam. You say "health care for everyone" but it really means "crap for everyone." That's not admirable, it's abominable.

The only right answer is top flight coverage for everyone.

but you don't even try. That's disgusting.

Steve
 

British_Rover

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Only on the internet can a situation where a company allowed twice for treatments that didn't meet his guidelines but then refused the third time be treated this way.

The NHS would have denied any of the treatments and the child would have died years ago. But that's supposed to be better?

The story here is... a sick young boy got two types of experimental treatments that insurance doesn't fundamentally cover, and then a third covered by the hospital when they knew that the parents couldn't pay. In other words, medical care far above and beyond the norm. Certainly a far better level of service that nationalized health services would provide.

Yep, that's a real failure of health care.

As I said, only on the internet.

Steve

Well at least in this case that wouldn't have happened no matter what as this treatment is supposed to be a "standard of care" that is a very specific term in the medical community. A "standard of care" is what is supposoed to be done and if it is the "standard of care" in Europe then you can bet the kid would have gotten it there and should have gotten it here.

"It's considered the standard of care in Europe and the United States for recurrent neuroblastoma," Kyler's oncologist, Stephan Grupp, told me then. "It's not an unproven treatment with no basis in medical science. Actually, the results are often very good."



Eh? In a country with a working health care system, like here, the nationalized health care system would have covered such a treatment. It would only require the patients (parents in this case, as it's a kid) permission to use "experimental" treatments, and it wouldn't cost them a dime...

That's the problem with the American healthcare system; firstly it's ridiculously expensive, and secondly it's not certain you might actually get the coverage you're paying for. Just ask British Rover about that... The insurance companies can deny coverage by defining treatments as "experimental" to sneak away from their obligations.

Oh they don't even have to do that. They just have to say a condition is related to some other remotely similar pre-existing condition. Hence the refusal of my insurance company to cover virtually anything related to my wife's head because of her deafness.


You're claiming that the NHS routinely approves treatments not on its approved list? And that if the NHS turns it down, the hospital will perform the treatment anyway?

You DO realize I'm not talking about your fantasy Neverland Health Service, right?

Steve

As long as we are talking about reality. Lets see this supposed list? You claim there is one everyone who actually has experience in national health care systems say there isn't one. Since you can't prove a negative produce the list.

Lets run down this list of articles again to prove how broken our health care system is. I don't think we should have a national system like Canada or The UK does but something like German or Australia could work here.

# Study: More than 60 percent of bankruptcies are linked to medical bills
# Three-quarters of people with a medically-related bankruptcy had health insurance
# Researcher: "You're one illness away from financial ruin in this country"
# Situation likely to worsen: study was done a year before recession



same source at Reuters if CNN is too BIASED


And another

Oh and the same story at Fox news so now we are fair and balanced

Funny I couldn't find that story on Fox while trying to search with Google news. I guess Rupert really did pull Fox off their indexing list.
 

nomix

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The trouble with that is that there are always tons of individual stories.

There are more than 250 million Americans with outstanding health care coverage that don't experience any of these issues, and get health care of a far higher standard than any of the European nations.

Those hundreds of millions of people have no interest in the long waits and limited choice that the nationalized systems provide.

And as Americans we are working to develop a system that provides good care for everyone. We don't want the fallback of 'crap coverage for everyone' -- that's an acceptance of failure that Americans just don't ascribe to. I certainly don't want MY health coverage to be crappy!

You have to be a total idiot to think that the only options in the world are crappy cheap coverage for everyone or good coverage for some.

For someone that prides themselves on saying "health care is a right" you continually overlook that Norway's health care has some of the longest wait times in Europe. How is that right? In my book, that's just a scam. You say "health care for everyone" but it really means "crap for everyone." That's not admirable, it's abominable.

The only right answer is top flight coverage for everyone.

but you don't even try. That's disgusting.

Steve

First of all, those 250 million are quite happy, and for the most part they are when they get sick, unless they are of those who get dropped.

Health care is a right, and it's just despicable to even allow such a system, if you need a medical procedure, you should get it.

There's good coverage for most, and there is good coverage for ALL. I know you've been force fed stories about how horrible socialized health care is, and I'll be the very first to admit that there is not perfect system. That's not the point.

If you need critical care, there are no waits. And there are no bills. If you need a non critical procedure, there are waits, which is regrettable from the human pov, but as far as I understand not from a medical pov (no, I won't be able to source it, just read a study showing that waiting times significantly improved results from surgery in a medical journal), but no matter what, you will get the pocedure. It's guaranteed.

Be honest, really, what is your choice, waiting for a procedure that's not critical, or not getting it?

How would you feel if you were denied insurance in the first place, then? And what if you payed your insurance for ten years, and then got dropped because you failed to mention when questioned a medical problem that you might not even remember having, or indeed not actually knowing you even had it?

That happens. It happens every day to real people, and they fucking suffer. That's not civilization, that is barbarical, I would rather punch an insurance executive in the nose than drink a good single malt, and that says a lot..

And after the scare stories from ideologically coloured sources, how many Norwegians have you actually talked to about it? I've never met a single person who had proper griefs with hospitals. Some complained about hospital food, some complained about telephone calls being expensive, but I have not met ONE person who did not get top notch treatment, not one.

Does that mean there aren't mistakes and issues? Fuck no. But I can rest assured that no one can deny me health care, you can't.
 

2Billion

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The trouble with that is that there are always tons of individual stories.

There are more than 250 million Americans with outstanding health care coverage that don't experience any of these issues, and get health care of a far higher standard than any of the European nations.

Those hundreds of millions of people have no interest in the long waits and limited choice that the nationalized systems provide.

And as Americans we are working to develop a system that provides good care for everyone. We don't want the fallback of 'crap coverage for everyone' -- that's an acceptance of failure that Americans just don't ascribe to. I certainly don't want MY health coverage to be crappy!

You have to be a total idiot to think that the only options in the world are crappy cheap coverage for everyone or good coverage for some.

For someone that prides themselves on saying "health care is a right" you continually overlook that Norway's health care has some of the longest wait times in Europe. How is that right? In my book, that's just a scam. You say "health care for everyone" but it really means "crap for everyone." That's not admirable, it's abominable.

The only right answer is top flight coverage for everyone.

but you don't even try. That's disgusting.

Steve
You know what's disgusting? British Rover's wife being denied treatment because her ears are on her head. Millions of Americans being denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions. That's not even trying. That's actively ignoring the issue at hand.

Besides, you claim to want top flight coverage for everyone. The American system doesn't provide that, since some can't afford it, and insurance companies search for ways to screw people out of the coverage they paid for. Yeah, you have reduced wait times, but you pay out the ass for it, and in the end aren't living longer, aren't healthier, and aren't in a better situation than any other country in the world.

Besides, is it really top flight? Take, for example, infant mortality rates, a good judge of the healthcare of a country. America is 33rd according to the United Nations. Every country you're criticizing - the UK, Canada, Norway, etc - is above you. Average life expectancy? Another US failure. 38th in the world, just under Cuba. Again, the UK, Norway, Canada, etc. are all better.

You keep saying that socialized health care isn't perfect. The people who live with it know it's not perfect, and they know that some things need to be changed. But I'll take wait times on certain surgeries ANY day over bankruptcy.

I hope, for your sake, you never get a serious disease, and find that your top flight American health care is landing you in a top flight American bankruptcy court.
 
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British_Rover

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You know the worst thing about the way health insurance is set up in the US right now?

The worst thing is you don't know if you have bad insurance until you need to use it.

Most things you are buying you can figure out if you are getting a raw deal before you buy it or you realize fairly soon after you bought it that you are getting screwed.

Not true with health insurance.

Even auto insurance you can do decent comparisons and at least with auto insurance if you wreck your car the insurance company won't drop you till they fix it or they pay you the value as a total. As long as your policy has been paid in full and current before the accident and you didn't try any kind of fraud your car will get fixed.

Now if you have been paying your health insurance on time but you get sick the insurance company could drop you before paying for anything if they think it is going to be too expensive. They could at least pay you a lump sum if it is going to be too expensive to fix you up. I mean that would be a little better right.

On the surface my health insurance looks ok but since they won't pay for anything to do with my wife's head, well they will cover dental and eye stuff but nothing else, and because there is almost always at least a $1,000 of micelaneous charges they refuse to cover it really isn't so good.

Want to know how much an epidural costs?




$1,800. That was one of the things my insurance wouldn't pay for during my wife's birth.

Now I don't know about you but I have never given birth being a man and all but from what I saw that night it really fucking hurts.

I mean I guess you could do it without an epidural as women have done for years before but if you have the choice not to wouldn't you take it? Maybe not if you knew you were going to be charged $1,800 for it a six weeks later.
 

Steve Levin

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Average life expectancy? Another US failure. 38th in the world, just under Cuba. Again, the UK, Norway, Canada, etc. are all better.


This one's always good... despite universal coverage, people in the UK live roughly 6 months longer than in the US. Germany... maybe a year longer? Not sure that's really proving that it's much better. I would expect better from systems that cover everyone.

In fact, I'd say it's one of the strongest proofs that more coverage without quality isn't better. You can cover everyone and it doesn't really move the needle unless that coverage is good. And no nationalized system has managed that yet.

I hope, for your sake, you never get a serious disease, and find that your top flight American health care is landing you in a top flight American bankruptcy court.

See, I'd rather be alive and bankrupt than dead and with good credit.

Steve
 
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tigger

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I suppose that if my argument was that thoroughly and methodically destroyed, by multiple board members, I'd ignore their posts too. Well played Steve.

I wouldn't mind posting some relevant data on (at least the financial) advantages of universal coverage. But what's the point? You wouldn't read it. Or you wouldn't respond in kind, anyway. Hell we've been through all this already.
 
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Steve Levin

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I suppose that if my argument was that thoroughly and methodically destroyed, by multiple board members, I'd ignore their posts too. Well played Steve.

I wouldn't mind posting some relevant data on (at least the financial) advantages of universal coverage. But what's the point? You wouldn't read it. Or you wouldn't respond in kind, anyway. Hell we've been through all this already.

Facts? You mean like the facts that "NHS doesn't deny any kind of treatment"? Or the litany of "it worked fine for my family" claims (as I pointed out, there's plenty of those in America as well)?

Or the fact that universal coverage has long waiting lines and significant rationing? Again, don't take my word for it... at least take the second to search on it and realize that there's a ton of flaws there.

All arguments for universal coverage have come down to "well, at least it covers everyone" as if that trumps everything.

Sorry, it doesn't. I have no interest in my medical coverage being made worse. Nor do a majority of Americans.

Remember that the big hole in America's coverage is that 6 out of 100 people aren't covered and can't afford it (the other 6 out of 100 make more than $50,000/year, so it's a matter of "don't want to pay" not "can't afford")

The bottom line is no facts have been presented on behalf of universal coverage. Even you want to present "financial advantages" -- which is the same as saying "why it's not as good, but it's cheaper" isn't it? If, as folks are wont to say, it's so much better...why isn't it significantly better in all those health metrics?

A bunch of people stamping their feet and insisting that they are right isn't destroying any argument -- it's just mental masturbation. Universal coverage that's cheaper and not as good is just a system flawed on a different axis.

As I've said before, I want to see an America that helps those that cannot help themselves but not at the expense of the vast majority of Americans that have excellent health coverage.

When even the labor unions -- the ultimate liberal bastion of America -- are fighting against nationalized health care, you KNOW it's barking up the wrong tree. (of course, you'll probably claim some giant black heliocopter conspiracy there, I don't know)

Steve
 
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nomix

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Steve, answer me this, when you get sick from a preexisting condition, and the love of you live (your lovely insurance company) deny you the treathment, will you still defend it?

I get standing on principle, I respect that. It's sometimes stupid, but I respect it. But if you were one of the thousands being denied coverage every single year, would you still defend the system?

You know the worst thing about the way health insurance is set up in the US right now?

The worst thing is you don't know if you have bad insurance until you need to use it.
Quoted for the truth.

Want to know how much an epidural costs?

$1,800. That was one of the things my insurance wouldn't pay for during my wife's birth.
That's ridiculous..

I suppose that if my argument was that thoroughly and methodically destroyed, by multiple board members, I'd ignore their posts too. Well played Steve.

I wouldn't mind posting some relevant data on (at least the financial) advantages of universal coverage. But what's the point? You wouldn't read it. Or you wouldn't respond in kind, anyway. Hell we've been through all this already.
At least it's funny.
 

Plissken

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For example, to quote from a result on the first page of many results....

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/h...s-decides-to-pay-for-new-drug-91466-25649252/

Except you are too clueless to notice one extremely important fact...

The man is still getting treatment.

And it says the treatment costs ?5000 each. How much is the guy paying? Nothing. He'll get it for free.

But I reckon you didn't actually read that far, did you?

I can tell you didn't, because I ask the simple question "Would private healthcare give it to him?"

The couple said they have had offers from friends to fund the treatment but there are no private facilities in Wales that can carry out the procedure.

Oh look, the PRIVATE SYSTEM CAN'T GIVE HIM THE TREATMENT EITHER.

Why am I bothering? You can't even read your own supporting evidence properly!
 

nomix

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Well, if the private system does its job, there would be treatment. If the private system just dropped the patient, though..

Credit where credit's due.
 

Plissken

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Steve missed out three important points.

The private system in Wales can't cover this guy. The NHS in Scotland would. And the NHS in England and Wales are meeting to approve the treatment next month.

Oh and a swift Googling and even before you get into bulk discounts for purchases, the NHS is paying $200 per vial below the wholesale price in the US. (Can't find a price charged by healthcare providers.)
 

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I'd rather be alive and bankrupt than dead and with good credit.

Steve
Yet you turn against a system that would allow people to live longer and retain their economic stability. It's your countrymens loss, not mine.
 

nomix

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They're people. So their suffering is a big issue.
 

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Guys, stop wasting your time and keystrokes; arguing with most Americans about healthcare is like arguing with a dining room table.

 

Steve Levin

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Oh, and when ya'll sit down and throw life expectancy, etc., out there... are you really making the case that Americans are fundamentally as healthy? Or is it that universal health care keeps people out of McDonalds?

Less healthy people are going to have health issues -- even the children they give birth to. But if you guys want to step forward and say "we honestly believe that Americans on average are no less healthy than the average European" please do so. It ain't something I'm willing to do. And honestly, it isn't true.

You guys get wrapped up in specific examples. Take the Wales cancer thing. I only picked that as a quick proof that the NHS doesn't cover everything. That was on the first page of search results. The point was showing how easy it is to demonstrate that there are treatments that don't get covered. It wasn't meant to be a single beacon of proof, the only example I could find. It was an example on the very first page of many. Did any of you actually look through those pages and pages of results? Of a single search query that I don't claim to be the optimal one or anything. It was just a quick way to demonstrate that the NHS clearly does not approve and perform every single possible treatment out there.

Note that this was all about an article that said "boy gets two unapproved treatments paid for by insurance, and the hospital performed a third even though the parents couldn't pay." And my point was that under the NHS the boy wouldn't have even gotten the first two, much less the third. And that contrary to Plissken's claim that "of course he would have, the NHS doesn't deny treatment" it took all of 5 seconds to demonstrate that indeed there are treatments the NHS doesn't allow. You guys are trying to argue it's the only case, some rare outlier. If that's what you think, you owe yourself at least 60 or 70 seconds of searching so that you can see that's just not the case.

You're far more interested in being masters of the universe than actually debating the facts. Have at it.

Steve
 

Plissken

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And that contrary to Plissken's claim that "of course he would have, the NHS doesn't deny treatment" it took all of 5 seconds to demonstrate that indeed there are treatments the NHS doesn't allow.

Someone is trying to out-Google me? Good luck with that.

You are being fantastically disingenuous. The guy in Wales is not being denied that particular treatment by the NHS. The treatment is unavailable. Nothing has been turned down, that particular treatment is simply not being delivered anywhere in Wales, right now, by anybody.

If it is the NHS is denying treatment, how do you explain the fact that he can go to Scotland and get the treatment there? (And that, by the way, is a question I would like to ask the guy in Wales...)

Denial is not the opposite of available.

And the massive elephant in the room you fail to address is this guy is still being treated for cancer. He will get the best care for free until then and will probably be right up at the top of the list when the treatment is approved next month.

Not something we can say for the five year old in Philly.
 
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Steve said:
I appreciate that you want to defend your own system of health care, but you REALLY need to actually look at facts. Perhaps if you actually educated yourself on the issue rather than just followed a few headlines you would learn something.

OK, Steve, congratulations: you've pushed my buttons. Now prepare to lose an argument, because you picked the wrong guy to mess with about public healthcare.

Why? I have a rare immune system condition. Very rare. As in, 1 in less than 100 known worldwide to have the same type and 1 in a just a few 100 to have the various types. The kind that would be a "pre-existing condition" uncovered by an insurance company. I have more experience with healthcare than you or, for that matter, most people ever will in their entire life. I'm not just grabbing headlines, you're hearing this from the horse's mouth.

Without going into my life's story, I've dealt with this my entire life, spent days to weeks to months in a hospital bed, had major surgeries, rare infections, countless diagnostic tests, experimental treatments and so on. I've received fast and excellent care every step of the way.

Doctors here never need to concern themselves about whether a patient can afford a given treatment (or the doctor's time, for that matter). They can focus purely on selecting the best course of treatment and its delivery.

If I lived in the US, I'd have two choices:

1. Die
2. Go bankrupt

Because I (thankfully) don't, I can work and live as normally as I am able and never have to worry about paying anything simply for the right to stay alive.

Healthcare is a right. I am a human being with something to contribute to this world, not some piece of meat with which to be bargained. Private healthcare is nothing short of inhumane torture.
 
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British_Rover

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Remember that the big hole in America's coverage is that 6 out of 100 people aren't covered and can't afford it (the other 6 out of 100 make more than $50,000/year, so it's a matter of "don't want to pay" not "can't afford")



Steve

Err if you think $50,000 a year is enough to cover just a serious injury or illness let alone a catastrophic one you are seriously, seriously misinformed.

It isn't just $5-a-pill aspirin. Daily room charges exceed $5,000 in some New Jersey hospitals. An appendectomy in California, including about two days in the hospital, has an average list charge of $18,000. Nationally, federal data show the median charge for treating a heart attack is more than $20,000.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2004-04-13-rising-hospital-costs_x.htm

and that was from 2004.

If you get really hurt or really sick figure a minimum of $10,000 a day in a hospital. Those people that don't have coverage are just asking to be put into bankruptcy. Just remember that 75% of the people who did go into bankruptcy because of medical bills had health insurance.

There should be a requirement for basic catastrophic health insurance in the US.

Just keep in mind I am not arguing for a NHS style system or a system like Canada I think those would be bad ideas for the US. A system like Germany or Australia would be better. There are significant differences between those four systems. IF you don't understand those differences then you aren't really informed enough to be in this discussion.

What we have now in the US is not working. That is a fact. I don't think a NHS style system is something we should do either so there now we have common ground.

Instead of ignoring good posts that actually provide good data why don't you suggest something? Or are you just going to stand there stamping your feet saying no, no no?

What would you like to see what would work? The answer can't be what we have now because what we have now isn't the standard of the world for regular care. We do have some of the best high tech and cutting edge care in the world but for just basic illness and injury we do not. If I had diabetes or some other kind of chronic illness I would much rather be in Canada or the UK hell even Japan over the US. Germany would be the number one choice of course.

What we have now is killing people and is costing way too much money.

OK,

Why? I have a rare immune system condition. Very rare. As in, 1 in less than 100 known worldwide to have the same type and 1 in a just a few 100 to have the various types. The kind that would be a "pre-existing condition" uncovered by an insurance company. I have more experience with healthcare than you or, for that matter, most people ever will in their entire life. I'm not just grabbing headlines, you're hearing this from the horse's mouth.

Without going into my life's story, I've dealt with this my entire life, spent days to weeks to months in a hospital bed, had major surgeries, rare infections, countless diagnostic tests, experimental treatments and so on. I've received fast and excellent care every step of the way.

Doctors here never need to concern themselves about whether a patient can afford a given treatment (or the doctor's time, for that matter). They can focus purely on selecting the best course of treatment and its delivery.

If I lived in the US, I'd have two choices:

1. Die
2. Go bankrupt

Because I (thankfully) don't, I can work and live as normally as I am able and never have to worry about paying anything simply for the right to stay alive.

Healthcare is a right. I am a human being with something to contribute to this world, not some piece of meat with which to be bargained. Private healthcare is nothing short of inhumane torture.

Oh and if I had some rare immune difficiency I would rather be in Canada too. For basically any kind of chronic healthcare issue you are better off in any country but the US.
 
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