650bhp McLaren Viper V10

jetsetter

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ishigakisensei said:
bartboy9891 said:
Dodge could've extracted another 150hp and added a CF hood without McLaren's input

And just think what REAL engineers could do by improving that 8.0L truck engine. 8.0L and only 650hp= :thumbsdown:

Did you know that is was actually Lamborghini who worked over the truck V10 for the first Viper. And remeber that if you gave that 8.0 liter V10 to some European engineer he could most likely develop alot of power but add $50,000 to the price tag. We know the V10 can develop 1800 hp + but it all comes down to if you want to pay for it.
 

ishigakisensei

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Japanese RB26DETT 2.6L engines with over 1000hp in Tokyo & fully street legal & can corner & can and do cost less than a Viper. Hell, an SR20DET can make near 500hp and that's a 2.0L in a lighter car with better handling. An 8L engine is just not impressive, IMO.
 

jetsetter

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ishigakisensei said:
Japanese RB26DETT 2.6L engines with over 1000hp in Tokyo & fully street legal & can corner & can and do cost less than a Viper. Hell, an SR20DET can make near 500hp and that's a 2.0L in a lighter car with better handling. An 8L engine is just not impressive, IMO.

The Viper is just one case. I can think of quite a few cheaper alternatives. Big block V8s, small block V8s, etc.
 

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ishigakisensei said:
Japanese RB26DETT 2.6L engines with over 1000hp in Tokyo & fully street legal & can corner & can and do cost less than a Viper. Hell, an SR20DET can make near 500hp and that's a 2.0L in a lighter car with better handling. An 8L engine is just not impressive, IMO.

Blah blah blah.

Look you just name dropped my second favorite engine/car, but i'm going to have to stop you there. It's just a different kind of car. If all cars were alike they'd be boring. I'm happy the Viper exists. I don't give a shit if they could have added more power. I don't care if it can't corner like a GT-R. I don't care if it doesn't have the balance of attributes i like in a car. It's an alternative, it's there, i appreciate it for what it is and i smile when i see one.

Get over it.
 

ishigakisensei

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Such fragile egos. My my my. I don't go along with the herd here and now I'm an outcast. Boo-hoo.

I guess one could use ENIAC for surfing the Web, doing homework, downloading po.....videos on Final Gear but a room full of a computer is not impressive when technology has passed it by at warp speed. Same with the Viper with it's crude engineering. I'm not impressed because I know better and anyone crying about it here will not change that. Your opinion is not getting validated so its best that you just move along.
 

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ishigakisensei said:
Japanese RB26DETT 2.6L engines with over 1000hp in Tokyo & fully street legal & can corner & can and do cost less than a Viper. Hell, an SR20DET can make near 500hp and that's a 2.0L in a lighter car with better handling. An 8L engine is just not impressive, IMO.
The Viper is NA, those Jap cars are not...

There are twin turbo Vipers out there with 2000 HP. ;)

ishigakisensei said:
the Viper with it's crude engineering.
But that's the point of the car. It's not meant to be a Ferrari.

I mean, should I start on what's cool and sells well in Japan? Do you really think that just about anything sold there would do well here or in Europe? I don't. Or do you think a Ford F-350 would work well in downtown Tokyo?

Apples and oranges.

But anyway, cool the hell off. I do not tolerate flaming of other's opinions. You're more than welcome to express your opinion and debate with others, but you are not welcome to attack people's opinions. Please go read the forum rules.
 

GraemeH

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ishigakisensei said:
Such fragile egos. My my my. I don't go along with the herd here and now I'm an outcast. Boo-hoo.

I guess one could use ENIAC for surfing the Web, doing homework, downloading po.....videos on Final Gear but a room full of a computer is not impressive when technology has passed it by at warp speed. Same with the Viper with it's crude engineering. I'm not impressed because I know better and anyone crying about it here will not change that. Your opinion is not getting validated so its best that you just move along.

Look, i said the car you name-dropped is my second most wanted car.. My top 3 cars are all small displacement Japanese jobs. This isn't an "us vs. them" thing. It's nothing to do with "the herd".

I'm just saying, we're all car enthusiasts. I wouldn't compare a stock Viper (which has a completely different design direction anyway) to a super hard tuned Skyline.

Just don't discount cars from existence like that because they are outclassed in a lot of areas.
 

ishigakisensei

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Viper, I flamed NO ONE and make no apology. Only the guilty need run. I responded to what I saw in kind.

GraemeH said:
Look, i said the car you name-dropped is my second most wanted car.. My top 3 cars are all small displacement Japanese jobs. This isn't an "us vs. them" thing. It's nothing to do with "the herd".

Seemed like it. I'm just not impressed with it's complete lack of engineering because I have seen more from less. I'll quote another member in the Hennessy Viper thread:

thedguy said:
I'm sure most realize I'm not one to bitch about HP/litre, but Dodge could have put SOME effort into the viper engine.

I'm just saying, we're all car enthusiasts. I wouldn't compare a stock Viper (which has a completely different design direction anyway) to a super hard tuned Skyline.

But that is what people do. I would bet my testicles on a fully tuned GTR (say from MINE'S at around 650hp) over a 2000hp Viper on any road course. Power is nothing without control. Chevy has this in mind with the new C6 Vette so why can't Chrysler?

Just don't discount cars from existence like that because they are outclassed in a lot of areas.

I have no doubt that driving the Viper is an exhilerating experience but as a piece of engineering, it's crude and disappointing. I just find it another example of American Well, Bubba (burp...fart) dis he'ah injun shore is pow'uhful. We gonna show dem fer'ners some'tin. Real 'Meri...kahn pow'ah to kick some ass. You know, just like the inbred characters doing Dodge's HEMI commercials.

Another turn-off to people Daimler-Chrysler wants as customers but will never lure away from BMW-Benz-AUDI-Jag. At least GM is finally getting its act together with the Northstar! :thumbsup:
 

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ishigakisensei said:
I have no doubt that driving the Viper is an exhilerating experience but as a piece of engineering, it's crude and disappointing. I just find it another example of American Well, Bubba (burp...fart) dis he'ah injun shore is pow'uhful. We gonna show dem fer'ners some'tin. Real 'Meri...kahn pow'ah to kick some ass. You know, just like the inbred characters doing Dodge's HEMI commercials.
Good ol' national stereotypes. Some people actually like the Viper for its American-style crudeness. They must all be inbred and fat.

Personally, I'm glad we all have some choice, whether it's between Ferrari's precision engineering and Viper's crudeness. You don't like it, it doesn't mean your opinion is worth any more than ours.

ishigakisensei said:
Another turn-off to people Daimler-Chrysler wants as customers but will never lure away from BMW-Benz-AUDI-Jag. At least GM is finally getting its act together with the Northstar! :thumbsup:
So all of a sudden, the Viper represents everything DaimlerChrysler makes? I doubt anybody's saying to themselves, "Man, I really wanted a C-Class but since the Viper comes from the same company, I bought a 3-Series instead."

And the Northstar's been around for a while. Since at least the early 90's.
 

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The last thing the viper needed was more power imo. I hope they work on the suspension setup so it can handle better. Ive always had a soft spot for the viper :)
 

bartboy9891

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jetsetter said:
ishigakisensei said:
bartboy9891 said:
Dodge could've extracted another 150hp and added a CF hood without McLaren's input

And just think what REAL engineers could do by improving that 8.0L truck engine. 8.0L and only 650hp= :thumbsdown:

Did you know that is was actually Lamborghini who worked over the truck V10 for the first Viper. And remeber that if you gave that 8.0 liter V10 to some European engineer he could most likely develop alot of power but add $50,000 to the price tag. We know the V10 can develop 1800 hp + but it all comes down to if you want to pay for it.
forced induction is one way to go, but even that costs a bit of cash. Hennessey and Hefner vipers are exactly cheap.
But about the euro argument, most customers that buy Vipers here in the US couldnt really care if a 911 can get around a corner faster. Vipers are bought almost purely for the power and their overall insanity. Increasing that insanity will guarentee more sales. Overseas, this doesnt appeal to most buyers, and thats perfectly fine.
The only problem i have is that its got a McLaren badge attached
 

ishigakisensei

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BlaRo said:
Good ol' national stereotypes.

That the knuckledraggers themselves take great pride in promoting.

Some people actually like the Viper for its American-style crudeness. They must all be inbred and fat.

In some ways - YES. Either in reality or in spirit.

Personally, I'm glad we all have some choice, whether it's between Ferrari's precision engineering and Viper's crudeness.

There are much less prestigous cars that have superior engineering to the Viper. I go back to the GTR- Japan's everyman supercar. Every year less expensive, more practical, and better performance.

You don't like it, it doesn't mean your opinion is worth any more than ours.

Never said it was. I just have higher standards.

So all of a sudden, the Viper represents everything DaimlerChrysler makes? I doubt anybody's saying to themselves, "Man, I really wanted a C-Class but since the Viper comes from the same company, I bought a 3-Series instead."

You haven't been keeping up with the advertising campaign and the inherent danger for a backlash. Get a CLUE - it's not just a boardgame.

And the Northstar's been around for a while. Since at least the early 90's.

And GM is just now finally expanding it's performance potential. They had the ZR1 engine in the early 1990s as well but dropped it. American car companies have had opportuinity after opportunity only to squander it. "Good enough engineering while the rest of the world has a best there is engineering philosophy is the reason why they have lost so much market share. It's not about getting beaten - it's about giving the game away.

---

Wizegui said:
The last thing the viper needed was more power imo. I hope they work on the suspension setup so it can handle better. Ive always had a soft spot for the viper

Power is nothing without control and that is the only area I beleive that the Viper would do well in improving. It has always had the power and only needs more finesse.
 

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ishigakisensei said:
Japanese RB26DETT 2.6L engines with over 1000hp in Tokyo & fully street legal & can corner & can and do cost less than a Viper. Hell, an SR20DET can make near 500hp and that's a 2.0L in a lighter car with better handling. An 8L engine is just not impressive, IMO.
Yes, all those wonderfully heavy and unreliable engines with laggy turbos. And how does a meaningless figure like hp/litre tell you how well engineered an engine is? Yes, using pushrods means that the engine will make "only" 500hp (which is still far more than the ~330hp the GTR makes stock), but it also makes the engine physically smaller, lighter and more fuel efficient than a DOHC motor with a similar power output.
 

ishigakisensei

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chaos386 said:
Yes, all those wonderfully heavy and unreliable engines with laggy turbos.

Spoken by a person without a clue and who has been wounded desperately seeking something snide to come back with. RB26DETT+HICAS=Godzilla (the banned in Australia Tourning Car).

You mistake my noticing the superiority of the Japanese as preferring it to be that way. I root for the home team, but....
 

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ishigakisensei said:
Some people actually like the Viper for its American-style crudeness. They must all be inbred and fat.
In some ways - YES. Either in reality or in spirit.
:lmao:

ishigakisensei said:
Personally, I'm glad we all have some choice, whether it's between Ferrari's precision engineering and Viper's crudeness.
There are much less prestigous cars that have superior engineering to the Viper. I go back to the GTR- Japan's everyman supercar. Every year less expensive, more practical, and better performance.
Er...no shit. They don't all have to come from Japan, though. Give me an M3 over a Viper any day, but I still acknowledge the fun factor the Viper gives the driver. Who might actually not be inbred but simply enjoys the car! What a concept!

ishigakisensei said:
So all of a sudden, the Viper represents everything DaimlerChrysler makes? I doubt anybody's saying to themselves, "Man, I really wanted a C-Class but since the Viper comes from the same company, I bought a 3-Series instead."
You haven't been keeping up with the advertising campaign and the inherent danger for a backlash. Get a CLUE - it's not just a boardgame.
How often do halo cars work? There's a Ford dealer not far from my house that has a dark grey GT parked in the showroom. Unsurprisingly, it's flooded with people taking pictures and gawking at its amazingness. How many of those people are going to walk in to stare at that GT, and after a while look across the showroom and say to themselves, "my, I should buy a Fusion!"

In theory, a halo car works to lure people into showrooms, where they're suckered into buying a different car, but it rarely works. A Z06 in a Chevy dealer isn't going to get more people into HHRs. The ad campaigns can say whatever they want, but a Viper isn't going to make a difference to someone looking at a Caliber.
 

ishigakisensei

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BlaRo said:

:thumbsup:

I still acknowledge the fun factor the Viper gives the driver.

If I implied that I did not think it was fun then that is my fault. Driving a Viper at speed is exciting....in the same way as riding a in barrel over Niagra Falls.

How often do halo cars work? There's a Ford dealer not far from my house that has a dark grey GT parked in the showroom. Unsurprisingly, it's flooded with people taking pictures and gawking at its amazingness. How many of those people are going to walk in to stare at that GT, and after a while look across the showroom and say to themselves, "my, I should buy a Fusion!"

Different issues here. My comment about the advertising campaign is that it is risky considering Lee Iacoca's "Buy American" campaing in the 1980s has now been replaced with the German face of the company. It's a complete 180-degree turn from what Chrysler billed itself. The "Buy AMerican" crowd can be turned off by the foreign face and more sophisticaed buyers have been turned off by the inbreds in the HEMI commercials. This issue is unrelated to the Viper.
 

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ishigakisensei said:
I still acknowledge the fun factor the Viper gives the driver.
If I implied that I did not think it was fun then that is my fault. Driving a Viper at speed is exciting....in the same way as riding a in barrel over Niagra Falls.
Hey, that sounds fun!

ishigakisensei said:
Different issues here. My comment about the advertising campaign is that it is risky considering Lee Iacoca's "Buy American" campaing in the 1980s has now been replaced with the German face of the company. It's a complete 180-degree turn from what Chrysler billed itself. The "Buy AMerican" crowd can be turned off by the foreign face and more sophisticaed buyers have been turned off by the inbreds in the HEMI commercials. This issue is unrelated to the Viper.
Chrysler has some actually great products (300C, and I dig the Crossfire) but the most blitheringly stupid ad campaigns ever. I mean, Lee Iacocca and Snoop Dogg? And Jason Alexander, because he's been bored and lazy since Seinfeld got canned? Every time I saw that a little bit of me died inside. Somebody needs to get shot for those.

I haven't seen any of the "Dr. Z" commercials, but they sound dreadful as well. Who's going to believe that the next Sebring is a mini-Benz?

(And I thought those "that thang got a HEMI?" ads were amusing. For about 10 minutes. :unsure:)
 

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yea.. the viper is such crap compared to other cars.. :roll:

It only won the 97 , 98, GT2 championships

in 99 , 2001, 2002 it won the GT1 championships..

It also was first and 2nd in the 24hr of Le mans in 98

Dodge pulled their race funding for 03 as they wanted to get back into NASCAR..

yea.. that'd be a pushrod engine beating ferrari's and porshes and japans best OHC engines.

oh.. and i think it had to corner to win as well.

Viper is a drivers car.. i'm sure if you outfitted it with traction control and yaw control etc.. it would fare better in the eyes of the inexperienced..

having driven a viper before.. you get a smile like :mrgreen: that doesn't go away for weeks.. something about being able to leave a light in 2nd gear, not shift, and break all the speed limits in the country in a few seconds.. and then find 3rd.. and keep goin. :)

The next viper will be even better.. but I guess some haters here will still be in denial that just because it's an american pushrod sportscar that it will be utter crap. *shrug*
 
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