Abortion (enter at your own risk)

Abortion (enter at your own risk)

  • Anti-Abortion

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
Ultra_Kool_Dude said:
Think of it like this - abortion is the same as killing a baby except that it is inside a woman, and it won't be born for a few months. Does the time or location of the murder of the baby really make a difference? There really is very little difference between abortion and killing a baby once it is born.

Indeed a good point, and this might be the real opinion divider. I believe that killing is wrong. You are taking soeones life away and that cannot be allowed. The thing is, when does the baby become someone? at conception? I don't think so, for a long time there is no way to differentiate a human embrio (baby) from that of an animal because they are exactly alike (ok, thats no argument, I'm just saying...) If I am not completely mistaken the limit in Finland is 3months, after this you cannot have an abortion. I think that what you have at 3 months is not a someone, just some cells forming a shape...

I can probably sum up by saying that I am really glad that I don't have to make laws regarding this issue as this is as hard as it gets. UKD's point's are valid and I totally get them, it's just that I feel that the line has to be drawn somewhere and that women should have a choice, the impact a pregnancy / giving birth can be so monumental on an individuals life that it justifies the right to choose.
 
This is a very, very touchy issue and I hope that noone takes offense to any of the view that I have or that others have.

I am Prochoice. I have had thousands of talks at schools and at conferences from government officials and have heard both sides of the story. I do agree that abortion should always be that last resort that hopefully none of us has to go through. However, I am sickened by those who try and tell that is must be banned. Not only does that not make sense politically, but it also doesnt make sense morally. Let me explain.

Firstly, it is my belief that the government has no business or the "right" to ban such an act. In a stretch of the mind, you could consider a religious aspect and I feel it would be almost against the Bill of Rights to ban such a practice. We have freedom to religion and by saying that abortion is bad is a very Catholic, Jewish, or whatever religion you believe in, belief. So it would unconstitutional to do so. As George W. Bush said, he believes that abortion is wrong due to his religion, but he is not going to bring his religious values into the political forum. I am not in the position to tell someone that I have never met or have had no relations with what they can and can not do.

Of course, however, there are many practical reasons why it should not be banned. The biggest of which is the amount of business is brings. Abortion is currently an 8 billion dollar business. Banning such a business is debriving our already fragile economy of a healthy source of income. It logically does not make sense to do so. Additionally, we have to look at this issue in a pratical sense. There is always the worst case scenario and it is my personal belief that the last, and worst, case option should always be available. It is there decision, and again, I am not here to tell people that my way is going to be your way too... regardless of your opinions and beliefs.

Now, I know that there are many people who are prolife and I am in no way condemning those who are so. I just want things to be as practical as possible and I feel that abortion should be open to those who want it.

However, I do not want to be labeled as an extreme pro-choice believer which is what many people who are pro-life try and do. I would like to see the adoption process made much, much more accessible to those who need it. Currently in the US, it takes an average of 2 years for a child to complete the process of adoption. That is unacceptible and that is partically the reason for why so many teen parents are opting to go through the process of abortion. This, as stated previously, is a sensitive area and I believe that the person making the decision needs to have all the facts and info they need to make the right decision for them. I think that everyone who has to go through this should have some sort of expert lay out the situation in black-and-white so that, again, the person can make the right decision.

This is a very touchy issue, and I hope that I havent offended anyone by what I have stated. I am just trying to make this matter as practical as possible. I am neither supporting abortion nor condemning it.
 
Sorry MPower if I say something You've mentioned, dont have time to read your book now.

Guys, I can understand both POV's. And Josty, you say that the embryo is "only" 22 weeks old, the limit is 16 in Norway. The earliest births take place in about the 26th week.

I seriously dont look at killing an embryo or a featus (spellings wrong) as murdering. I think "giving away" the baby after carrying it for nine months inside you is pretty mush out of the question for most girls, including myself If i were the father. So that leaves one choice: To raise a child you dont want. Not a good thing in any way. There are unwanted children around, and I think a lot of them has a tough life. I think abortion should be fully legal and supported. If you jerk off on the floor, Im sorry to put it this way, it doesnt equal murder does it? Just because your seamen has gon into an egg doesnt make it human.

Abortion should be an option for anyone. Allthough it should never be as a replacement for condoms etc. I have a close friend who had an abortion at 15, and she really struggeled. She felt that she had killed something, and I think most girls will think about that, so why make it harder for them?
 
I'm prochoice. It is a woman's body and she should be able to decide if she wants an unwanted baby or not. Lets face it, most of the time it is unwanted of by "accident" as some people would say.

I don't think the government should be able to make the choice for the woman. I see prolife activists all the time here in my town and don't agree that abortion should be illegal.

If abortion would be illegal, make alcohol and cigarettes illegal too. They also damage your body and kill you. But that's another topic. :|
 
The fact of the matter is that with current science, the woman has a choice for abortion all the way through her pregancy. Now, generally, it occurs usually within the first 1-2 months which makes the process much less complicated than the options which are available for those who have been pregant for up to 8 months. If you want, I can explain the process, but I doubt most of you dont want to hear that.
 
you want, I can explain the process, but I doubt most of you dont want to hear that.

Please do MPower, maye you can shed some light on this for people who don't really know what we're talking about.

I like the general opinion here, glad nobody is an "extreme thinker".
 
pro abortion!

as long as the baby isn't born, it's an extension of the mother, not a human being yet, so get rid of it if you don't want it
 
MPower said:
Of course, however, there are many practical reasons why it should not be banned. The biggest of which is the amount of business is brings. Abortion is currently an 8 billion dollar business. Banning such a business is debriving our already fragile economy of a healthy source of income.

Did you actually just say that abortion can be justified because it is a good business? :?

This is a moral issue, not an economic one. :roll:
 
I think you should have the right to do it, but some people just need a brain...

:? those who do it 2-3 times, comon use a fucking condom or take the pill
 
Ultra_Kool_Dude said:
MPower said:
Of course, however, there are many practical reasons why it should not be banned. The biggest of which is the amount of business is brings. Abortion is currently an 8 billion dollar business. Banning such a business is debriving our already fragile economy of a healthy source of income.

Did you actually just say that abortion can be justified because it is a good business? :?

This is a moral issue, not an economic one. :roll:
But see that is the problem we are facing. Its that many people arent realizing the economic value that it has. I know it sounds bloody immoral, but in the modern, fragile state of the world's economies, you have got to be willing to accept the fact that it is a business. By banning abortion you are robbing your economy of a healthy 8 billion dollar income. And in fact, I never, ever stated that abortion is justifiable. In fact in my last sentence I said that I am neither supporting it nor condemning it. :wink:

Please do MPower, maye you can shed some light on this for people who don't really know what we're talking about.
Essentially there are three types of abortion which can be used as a menthod... of abortion. Their useage depends on how pregant the woman is. Like I stated earlier, a woman can have an abortion all the way up to 8 months, it just involves a more difficult process.

The first process, and I appoligize for forgetting the name of it, is used for those who have been pregant for around 1-2 months. The baby has not developed a sketal system and the uterus skin is very soft. Because of that, the process involves a doctor (man or woman) to take a scalpel like tool to cut into the uterus and make a whole into the womb. With that whole, they use suction to remove all the parts of the undeveloped baby, the remaining womb and any other organs and parts which are part of the pregnancy system. The parts are sucked into a bin and disposed. This is by far the easiest method of abortion as it has a low risk of infection for the woman and it is a quick process to do. The risks are low, but infection can occur through unsterile tools used.

The second process is a little more destructive. After 3-5 months of pregnancy, the baby has developed a sketal system and begun developing the other essential systems. Because of that, the first method will not work seeing as the suction will not be strong enough to break the bones and vessles inside the womb. So, a different method is used. This involves, again, cutting a hole into the womb. Although, this time the hole is bigger. Through that whole, they take their tools (generally some sort of sharp knife and clamp) and attempt to break the baby out the womb through their hands, rather than through suction as mentioned in the previous method. The risks are higher as the process involves a greater amount of human intervention. This could cause cuts and scars inside the uterus causing infection which might impair the woman to not allow her to have a baby ever again. This process is lest common as the first. General abortions occur during the first 1-2 months so doctors do not have to resort to this method.

The last method is for those who have been pregnant for over 5 months. It is a bit more simple yet has a high rate of risk for damage to the woman. After 5 months, the baby has developed most of its body systems and is preparing for pregnancy. Due to that, the other two methods wont work. There are two problems, the hole would have be very big and the process would almost certainly kill the mother as well as the baby. So this method was devised. It involves the mother which takes some sort of drug, usually taken as a pill, which kills the womb and the baby. It also accelerates the pregnancy process and forces the woman to go into labor. While in labor, the woman delievers the aborted baby. The risks are high, however. The drugs can, again, harm the uterus and other systems necessary for reproduction and the woman's ability to deliever another baby is often destroyed. This is by far the least popular method seeing as most people who choose abort their baby do so within the first 1-2 months and during 5+ months have either decided to keep the baby or use the adoption system.

Those are the three most popular methods of abortion. There are other methods, but these are the most practiced. They have the lowest rate of infection and injury to the woman and can be practiced easily throughout the world's hospitals.
 
Reply @ Renesis:
I doubt there are people who have had 2 or 3 abortions, I mean that they were responsable for themself. I read an article about holland, last year there were 1.2 - 5% women who couldn't afford "the pill" so they got pregnant.
I got some numbers for you all to see.

The abortion rate is x/1000 people.
Country Abortion rate (x)
Holland 6,5 (6,5 per 1000 people)
Belgium 5,7
Germany 7,7
England +Wales 15,8
Sweden 18,7
USA 22,9
Bulgary (sp) 51,3
Estonia 53,8

As you can see the last two are "poor" countries and has a high abortion rate, I think that has to do with the costs of condoms and "the pill". many can't simply afford it.
However, surprising the USA is on a 3rd place with a reasonably high abortion rate.
Don't know why that is. I thought abortion was illegal in most states?
Of course these numbers may be confusing, because not all countries are included.

However, the Netherlands had 28.437 abortions in 2001. Germany had 1.469 for instance. And Spain had 10. This is due to women from other countries who can't have an abortion. 7 out of 10 women who come to the clinic are immigrants.
That's why our rate is so high. If you all are interested I will look for more information, this is somewhat I knew, except for the rates of the countries.

Edit: Thanks MPower, I didn't know there were actually that many methods to do so.
 
MPower said:
But see that is the problem we are facing. Its that many people arent realizing the economic value that it has. I know it sounds bloody immoral, but in the modern, fragile state of the world's economies, you have got to be willing to accept the fact that it is a business. By banning abortion you are robbing your economy of a healthy 8 billion dollar income.

Well Blimey! I wonder how many billions or trillions we are losing all over the world for not allowing heroine, crack, weapons trade etc. etc. to be freely available? really can we afford it? I say let's fix the economy quickly and easily. Just think off all the tax revenue available from these sources. Hell I could probably stop paying taxes right away.
 
muumipeikko said:
MPower said:
But see that is the problem we are facing. Its that many people arent realizing the economic value that it has. I know it sounds bloody immoral, but in the modern, fragile state of the world's economies, you have got to be willing to accept the fact that it is a business. By banning abortion you are robbing your economy of a healthy 8 billion dollar income.

Well Blimey! I wonder how many billions or trillions we are losing all over the world for not allowing heroine, crack, weapons trade etc. etc. to be freely available? really can we afford it? I say let's fix the economy quickly and easily. Just think off all the tax revenue available from these sources. Hell I could probably stop paying taxes right away.

And here is another problem: you think I am kidding. The world is a business and if you dont take advantage of it, you are going to lose this game. And Im sure you think that I am insane for saying this but legalizing drugs has so many more uses than just what people realize. They think that because we legalize drugs we are opening the world to destruction and addiction but in fact it is quite the opposite. Im not going to go into this because I have already discussed in the marijuana thread. ;)

And again, thank you for not reading all of my post. I am not simply justifying abortion just by the economical value. There are many more reasons to it than just that. But many, many people over look that fact and it is because of that, that they think that banning abortion is just a two step job. Sorry, but its far from that.

And in fact, I never, ever stated that abortion is justifiable. In fact in my last sentence I said that I am neither supporting it nor condemning it.

Think practically for a second. Would you logically ban something that generates 8 billions of dollars worth of revenue? No. Of course not.
 
MPower: That was a great read. Didn't know what was involved in the process. Shines some light on that now.

Josty: Some good stats. Yes, get more info please. I'd like to see some Asian countries like China, Japan, Korea, etc... or direct us to a website with all the info.

The cause for the US abortion is probably peer pressure and the population. There is too much peer pressure here in North America unfortunately. But that's my view on what is happening in North America.
 
Mpower... I did read all your posts, the reason I did not comment on the other issues is because I agree with it and there is no need to go into it from my point of view. And believe it or not but I am aware of the bigger pictures involved in these issues. It's just that your argument about abortion being big business and should therefore be allowed (and YES that was only one of your arguments) is just ridigilous IMO. There are a lot of things in this world that are big business or could potentially be so but that is no justification for any of it. What ever the case the world will be quite able to go on without a few billioin here or there, in the long run it does not make a difference. There is such a thing as moral (right / wrong) which is more important..

Do you think that human cloning should be allowed? definitely worth billions, thousands upon thousands of lives could be saved or their quality improved?? on the other hand don't answer, that's just a whole other can of worms...
 
muumipeikko said:
Do you think that human cloning should be allowed? definitely worth billions, thousands upon thousands of lives could be saved or their quality improved?? on the other hand don't answer, that's just a whole other can of worms...

We'll start a thread about that one day too...it's interesting enough!
 
muumipeikko said:
Mpower... I did read all your posts, the reason I did not comment on the other issues is because I agree with it and there is no need to go into it from my point of view. And believe it or not but I am aware of the bigger pictures involved in these issues. It's just that your argument about abortion being big business and should therefore be allowed (and YES that was only one of your arguments) is just ridigilous IMO. There are a lot of things in this world that are big business or could potentially be so but that is no justification for any of it. What ever the case the world will be quite able to go on without a few billioin here or there, in the long run it does not make a difference. There is such a thing as moral (right / wrong) which is more important..

Do you think that human cloning should be allowed? definitely worth billions, thousands upon thousands of lives could be saved or their quality improved?? on the other hand don't answer, that's just a whole other can of worms...
In my view it just doesnt seem at all logical to kill what is already an 8 billion dollar industry. It doesnt make sense to me and I try and make things as practical as possible. This is just a conflict of opinion and arguing will just make both of us pissed off and I dont want that.

BTW, I believe in both argicultural and human cloning. But I think that the develop of human cloning must be strengthened before it can actually be used day in and day out. I think we are far from the day when human cloning is used frequently. But, yes, I believe in researching it.
 
I found some stats from 1996 with some countries, a few were in my previous post and this is from 1996, but there is not alot of difference between the years.
abortus.gif


Worldwide there are approximatly 46 million abortions per year! That's about 126.000 per day. 78% of the abortions occur in developping countries and 22% occur in developped countries.
About 26 million women have legal abortions each year, while an the other 20 million abortions are obtained in countries where it is restricted or prohibited by law.
Another astonishing fact: the lifetime average is about 1 abortion per woman!!
I find that quite shocking to be honest. By far not all women have an abortion, so that means there must be alot of other women who have multiple abortions in her life.
Some US facts:
1,37 Million abortions per year (1996)
3,700 abortions per day.
52% of the women obtaining abortions are younger than 25 years old.
64,4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; married women account for 18,4%, divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Ok, I did a little study, my mother works in the hospital and I borrowed some books.
If you see abortion on the scientific way, life begins at conception. Many scientists and doctors agree with that, many don't.
"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception". This is just a quote I found, not to persuade anybody.
Fertilization: that is the exact moment when a human being comes into existence.
This one-celled life, which has inherited 23 chromosomes from his dad and 23 from his mother, and already has all the genetic information to create every detail of your individual human development.

Conception: At the moment of conception, a human being comes to existence with it's own genetic material. (DNA)

Eight days: At about 8 days after conception, the fertilized ovum (blastocyst sp?) implants in the lining of the uterus. It emits chemical substances which weaken the womans immune system within the uterus so that this tiny body is not rejected by the womans body.

Three weeks:
At the 3rd week of pregnancy the heart begins to beat.

Six weeks:
At the 6th week, the brain emits waves which can be registered on a EEG (don't know the english translation for it) With this instrument doctors can see if the baby is alive.

Eight weeks:
At the 8th week of pregnancy, every organ is present and in place. Everything an adult has, can be found in the "embryo" as well. Now the "embryo" is about 1,5 cm (1 inch) long.

An answer to the question "Is abortion murder" is hard to answer. There is no answer to that, cause scientists, doctors etc can't agree with eachother where life really starts. Is it at fertilization of the ovum, implantation of the blastocyst?
Opinions differ on that, I suggest you read "A person is a person, no matter how small" by Theodore Seuss Geisel if you want to know the arguments for "Abortion: no".
If you want to read from the woman's point of view I suggest "Our choices, Our Lives" by Krista Jacob.

I read alot from people who were against aborting (mostly because I am "supporting" it) and it kinda got me started thinking about it. I've seen some pretty gross pictures of babies/embryos from embry to almost fully grown who were taken out of the womb. I won't link these pictures cause it may get you sick, it made me sick. I could understand why people say it is killing babies, but it's hard to decide when and IF you should abort the birth of a baby. I quote "Anyone who suggests that it is compassionate to kill an unborn child who may be subjected to poverty or disability, would also have to extend that logic to any born children who are living with poverty or disability." "Killing the poor is bad social policy, and killing the handicapped is bad medicine."
So far for the quotes, I can't really make up my mind, whether it should be legalized or be forbidden. Boths sides have it's pros and cons. And I should kindof agree with the first quote, who am I to decide if my child doesn't have a good life when it has to live in poverty. I know lots of people who are so happy with their life but don't have lots of money, me included. I still think that rape is a thing I can't decide of. When a young girl gets raped and get pregnant you can't force her to have her child. The people against abortion tend to say "You kill the baby so your family doesn't have to endure the shame". I don't agree with that. If she would keep the child she would have to raise it, if she likes it or not.

One other thing, I think it still should be legalized, BUT strict regulations are needed!
For instance there has to be a line which cannot be crossed, after x weeks you can't have an abortion. I have seen babies aborted after 24 weeks, they are fully grown and I think, if you agree or not, that is murder. I think I've said a couple of times now, but its still a difficult subject to decide where that line should be drawn. Doctors know more than I do so I guess the laws are made with them, I still see stories floating around the internet where abortians are done where the baby is almost ready for birth. And I think that should be prohibited.

Now I need a beer, it's my saterday for gods sake.

And btw. don't give me those "I won't read your book cause It's not school", don't reply I'm not interested.
 
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