Any excellent handling front-wheel drive cars?

Wow, I cant believe North Americans haven't posted the best handling front wheel drive vehicle that was sold here: the Mazda MazdaSpeed Protege. Forget the ITR, this car is exceptional.

The MazdaSpeed Protege is indeed good, but I wouldn't call it the best handling FWD car sold in the US. In my experience, that would be the M100 Elan.
 
Now you see that just isn't true. When you put too much power, like with the Vauxhall/Opel VXR models, you do end up with something horrible, but I think we have already so far pretty much concluded that there are good, no, make that great handling FWD cars. Get over it.

Now you see, it IS true. Not a single car on that list wouldn't handle better as a RWD car.

FWD cars are an abomination and any enthusiast should recognize that. They are fine for your granny to get her milk in, but as a performance car? No way!

Talking about "great FWD" is basically a European sop for "our governments hate us, they penalize us for even having cars, so we'll pretend these little FWD toys are cool."

You can get back to me when Ferrari builds a FWD car.

Steve
 
The bigger and more powerful the car the harder it is to get decent handling for the reasons that Seve has stated, a light car with limited power can be a very very good handling vehicle - viz original Mini. The suspension, anti roll bars, chassis and shocks have improved so up to a certain limit you can get good handling out of front wheel drive. I would reference the TG episode with the hotted up BMW minis - that shows it perfectly I think.
 
Now you see, it IS true. Not a single car on that list wouldn't handle better as a RWD car.

FWD cars are an abomination and any enthusiast should recognize that. They are fine for your granny to get her milk in, but as a performance car? No way!

Talking about "great FWD" is basically a European sop for "our governments hate us, they penalize us for even having cars, so we'll pretend these little FWD toys are cool."

You can get back to me when Ferrari builds a FWD car.

Steve

Then I suppose you haven't heard about WRC? Let's take Minis for example, driven by Rauno Aaltonen and many other great rally legends. Winning the Monte Carlo rally with a FWD drive car with not that much grunt is quite a good achievement, don't you think ?

And then let's get one thing straight: no one ever mentioned a thing about FWD performance cars, just FWD cars that handle really well and they do exist. I think that everyone realises that too much power through the front wheels is madness.

But to completely state that front wheel drive cars are rubbish full stop is just ignorant and plain stupid, to be honest.

Just because you haven't driven any good cars that aren't RWD or AWD doesn't mean they don't exist. And now that you mentioned the Europe-America thing there....well let's just say I wouldn't even start with that sort of competition.

And you are saying that all FWD cars would handle better if they were RWD ? You really didn't think that through now did you because FWD are sort of designed to be FWD and you can't just say "oh I bet that with RWD that car would be much better".

And furthermore there are also RWD that handle like crap, did you know that ? Just because all TVRs tned to be quite horrible doesn't mean that all RWD cars are rubbish. Same goes for FWD cars. Just because Opel/Vauxhall can't make their cars go properly around corners doesn't mean that all FWD cars are the makings of Satana.
 
Now you see, it IS true. Not a single car on that list wouldn't handle better as a RWD car.

FWD cars are an abomination and any enthusiast should recognize that. They are fine for your granny to get her milk in, but as a performance car? No way!

Talking about "great FWD" is basically a European sop for "our governments hate us, they penalize us for even having cars, so we'll pretend these little FWD toys are cool."

You can get back to me when Ferrari builds a FWD car.

Steve

Go and drive a Honda DC2 Integra Type R, a Renaultsport Clio 182 Trophy or an original Mini Cooper and then say that again. I'll happily provide some bbq sauce for you so the text is a little more paletable.

I know you live in the States where they like to convince you that RWD=Good handling but then it's not surprising as it's about the only half decent feature when the vehicle being propelled weighs two tonnes, has 100bhp and suspension from a tractor designed in 1904.

As we're talking about handling here and not traction (I'd be the first to admit that you can't ever get the same degree of traction from FWD car as weight transfer works against you) there is no difference at all between how a car handles whether it be rear, front or all wheel drive. If you took a car and changed it's drive between the 3 different configurations the turn in and maximum lateral grip levels would all be the same as well as the apparent all important 'steering feel'. What makes the significant difference is weight distribution. Some FWD cars like the Alfa Romeo 147 and 156 GTA have a lot of mass up front and not much at the back, hence their moment of rotation is skewed and hence they under steer like a pig. Take a Clio or an Integra however and they have a nice light engine placed fairly far back in the engine bay and hence have near perfect weight balance....hence they handle well. A lot of US made FWD cars have stupid FWD configurations that aren't thought out at all. I think it's either a BUICK or an Oldsmobile that has some stupidly big V8 transversely mounted in the front with FWD. Of course it's going to handle badly because the engine weighs a tonne, there's no hefty rear differential to offset it and GM probably paid the engineers that designed it with Wallmart tokens and gave them a broken Mechano set to make it with.

As for putting the power down, modern suspension geometry and limited slip differentials allow large amounts of power to be put down with no effect on the steering at all. Some are so good at what they do that in the case of the Integra you can get power on oversteer. YES you read that right. POWER ON oversteer on the exit of a corner. This is due to the lightness of the car and the way the diff works. There are very very few cars in the world that handle as well as a DC2 Type R and that includes rear and four wheel drive vehicles.

If you actually took the time to drive one of the three cars mentioned above you'd see what I mean.The sublime adjustablity on turn in, the beautifully tactile steering and stunning out right grip. About a year ago EVO did a group test with a Zonda, Carrera GT, 360 CS and a RenaultSport Clio Trophy. All of the road testers agreed that it was easily as much fun as the supercars and even more impressively it was so good in the corners that given a twisty bit of road, they struggled to keep up with it in the hypercars! It's so easy to drive and handles so predictably that you can extract every last ounce of the chassis, whereas the supercars, whilst on a track are stunning, are simply too edgy and hard to control on the road and you can only use about 8/10ths of their talents.

All I say is this....if RWD was so much considerably better than FWD, how come, in the World Touring Car Series, all the front wheel drive cars set identical times to those set by the RWD BMWs?.

Oh....and as for a FWD Ferrari. Ask and ye shall receive:

8.32_1024_768_7.jpg


Daniel..jpg


ferrari-motor.jpg


The 1987 FWD Lancia Thema 8.23 Ferrari.
 
Ok, before the flames start a-cracklin', I am in the belief that we call ALL agree with this:

Be it front, rear or all wheel drive, it comes down to the basic suspension geometry and weight transfer characteristics for any of the 3 vehicles to handle properly.

300 HP in a Clio will be a poor handling car. It all comes down to a balance of suspension and power.

Typically, the best handling front wheel drive cars have been low powered with emphasis on a suspension and weight.


My opinion? After buying my WRX, there is no way in hell I will ever go back to front wheel drive again.
 
FWD cars are serviceable cars. They can be fun, but their limits crest at a certain amount of power as Vauxhall/Pontiac have proven with the Vectra/Grand Prix.

FWD has some advantages though, namely that it is easier to handle for novice drivers, especially in inclement weather. Also, FWD cars to be more fuel efficient, and leave more cabin space (you don't have this giant shaft running through the car...). Honestly, for sitting in traffic jams and commuting at speed limits of 90-100 km/h, you don't need RWD.

That's why my car is a FWD appliance, with an automatic transmission and a nice soft suspension.

Of course, those days when I'm in the mountains driving... I really wish I had an MX-5 to do it with... :(
 
300 HP in a Clio will be a poor handling car. It all comes down to a balance of suspension and power.

Sorry...perhaps I didn't really make it as clear as I wanted. I was talking in steady state conditions. i.e. if you approach a corner at the same speed in the same car but with the same amount of power going to different wheels it wouldn't make any difference on how fast the car went through the corner. Obviously when you start considering that 300bhp through the front wheels would corrupt the steering terribly it's a different matter, but the actual handling of a car is purely down to it's weight distribution and suspension setup. For example...a bad handling powerful car won't suddenly be better if you limit the power....and for the same reason, a bad handling fwd car won't be good if you make it rwd.

You could actually do this experiment with any Haldex based 4WD car like a Golf R32. It has a natural propensity to understeer as the engine is heavy and in the front. You can change between FWD, RWD and 4WD using a number of tricks involving Haldex control boxes and the removal of fuses (if you take the 4motion fuse out it disables the rear diff making it fwd). Running it in RWD won't suddenly get rid of the turn in and mid corner understeer and the same is true for the other conditions. What will change is the way it exits. With 4WD you can get on the power really early and it will sort itself out and juggle power to the rear hence reducing understeer. With FWD only, it can't do this and hence you'll have to wait to get on the power and with RWD it will probably just understeer even more as despite the front wheels being undriven, the weight will still be too much for rear drive to overcome. But fundamentally it's still the same car....it will always understeer on turn in unless you change the suspension or change the position of the major masses.
 
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Back on topic... has anyone here tried out a Corolla FX16 from the 1980s? I'm wondering how well that would go with the 20V 4A-GE from the 90s; it was never as popular as the CRX, for sure, but it was on the market around the same time.
 
All of those were available in the UK. I presume you were meaning the Hondas?

No, it means I'm an utter fool and for some reason wrote 'Europe' instead of 'the US', completely changing the sense.

My bad.
 
Now you see, it IS true. Not a single car on that list wouldn't handle better as a RWD car.

FWD cars are an abomination and any enthusiast should recognize that. They are fine for your granny to get her milk in, but as a performance car? No way!

Talking about "great FWD" is basically a European sop for "our governments hate us, they penalize us for even having cars, so we'll pretend these little FWD toys are cool."

You can get back to me when Ferrari builds a FWD car.

Steve

:roflmao:

drive a MINI, and drive it fast... if you know anything at all about driving you will change your mind...
 
http://img50.imageshack.**/img50/4166/ownedfishyuy5.jpg

+1 to your pwned count ArosaMike. Well Played!:thumbsup:
 
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I've heard the older Dodge Neon is a pretty impressive vehicle. Especially the ACR models.

A friend of mine tells me of a guy who runs some of the So.Cal canyons with a neon, if he wrecks the car, he just buys another one for damn near nothing and swaps the (few) mods over.

Lets not forget the first Nissan Sentra SE-R that thing is fantastic.

Autoblog write up

You know Nissan STILL produces that damn car in Mexico

I know you live in the States where they like to convince you that RWD=Good handling but then it's not surprising as it's about the only half decent feature when the vehicle being propelled weighs two tonnes, has 100bhp and suspension from a tractor designed in 1904.

*Clears throat* 150hp depending on trim :p

Integra you can get power on oversteer. YES you read that right. POWER ON oversteer on the exit of a corner. This is due to the lightness of the car and the way the diff works.
More details please, I'm finding this hard to believe.
 
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Go and drive a Honda DC2 Integra Type R, a Renaultsport Clio 182 Trophy or an original Mini Cooper and then say that again. I'll happily provide some bbq sauce for you so the text is a little more paletable.



As for putting the power down, modern suspension geometry and limited slip differentials allow large amounts of power to be put down with no effect on the steering at all. Some are so good at what they do that in the case of the Integra you can get power on oversteer. YES you read that right. POWER ON oversteer on the exit of a corner. This is due to the lightness of the car and the way the diff works. There are very very few cars in the world that handle as well as a DC2 Type R and that includes rear and four wheel drive vehicles.

About a year ago EVO did a group test with a Zonda, Carrera GT, 360 CS and a RenaultSport Clio Trophy. All of the road testers agreed that it was easily as much fun as the supercars and even more impressively it was so good in the corners that given a twisty bit of road, they struggled to keep up with it in the hypercars! It's so easy to drive and handles so predictably that you can extract every last ounce of the chassis, whereas the supercars, whilst on a track are stunning, are simply too edgy and hard to control on the road and you can only use about 8/10ths of their talents.

I agree with everything you said.

Honestly, I think we're going around in circles: we're all car enthusiasts here and regarldess of overall best handling (in the same way as arguing over overall speed or acceleration) is sutterly pointess.

The criteria we should all be considering, as I have leared from the Top Gear show, is a purely subjective one: FUN.

I had fun in the Mini and I was impressed with its handlig characteristics.

Others may think another car is better because of whatever characteristics but in the end, it all comes down to how much you like it.
 
Wow, I cant believe North Americans haven't posted the best handling front wheel drive vehicle that was sold here: the Mazda MazdaSpeed Protege. Forget the ITR, this car is exceptional.

http://img246.imageshack.**/img246/1626/03mazdaspeed2df0.jpg

def agree w/that. i test drove a MSP b4, it handles great.
 
Others may think another car is better because of whatever characteristics but in the end, it all comes down to how much you like it.

That?s really what it boils down to. On paper the mini (as well as quite a few other good cars) is nothing special, you really have to drive it to see what all the fuss is about...

I was talking about this with a friend who owns an S3 as well as an R53 Cooper S. If you take them both to the Nordschleife the Audi is gonna be much quicker round the track, but the experience just isn?t the same as in the Mini, because it?s just so much more fun...
 
i drove a mini cooper...
handles really well... almost as good as s2000 but 10 times more comfortable and livable day to day
 
I am fortunate that I get to drive lots of cars. And they all show me one simple thing:

You cannot put power down and corner all at the same time. Tires can only do so much, and with a given amount of power to put down, a RWD car will always be able to exit faster than an equivalent FWD car, which will simply run out of traction earlier. If a tire has 100% to give, it can do 100% cornering in a RWD car, but in a FWD car it will have to use some percentage of that traction to accelerate, meaning it cannot coerner as hard.

Go to a racetrack where you can really drop the hammer and you will always find yourself running slower in the FWD machine. If you are getting power on oversteer, you just have a poorly set up car. There's no excuse for a FWD car to oversteer on the exit of a corner if it is properly set up and not pitched in hard (which will be slower, btw). Watch Matt Neal's Integra and note that it doesn't oversteer at all unless he's specifically provoked the weight transfer. They never, ever, oversteer from just applying too much power.

Steve
 
I am fortunate that I get to drive lots of cars. And they all show me one simple thing:

You cannot put power down and corner all at the same time. Tires can only do so much, and with a given amount of power to put down, a RWD car will always be able to exit faster than an equivalent FWD car, which will simply run out of traction earlier. If a tire has 100% to give, it can do 100% cornering in a RWD car, but in a FWD car it will have to use some percentage of that traction to accelerate, meaning it cannot coerner as hard.

Ah, but here's the thing: there's no such thing as an equivalent FWD car. They might be similar in size or in the same price bracket, but they're still entirely different cars. The closest you can get to testing FWD and RWD on the same car is by adjusting an AWD car like ArosaMike said, but even then, all you're adjusting is where the power's going, and theres a lot more than that separating FWD from RWD (there's also how the engine is mounted, where the drivetrain is, and how that affects the packaging and design of the rest of the car).

You also can't just say "if that was a RWD car..." because it's not that simple. The entire chassis of a car is designed to specifically handle either FWD, RWD or AWD. If you wanted to change it from one to the other you'd have to change the chassis and suspension designs, meaning that the drivetrain is no longer the only variable. In any case, even if it's easier to design a RWD car to handle well, proper-handling FWD cars do exist, which is all the OP asked.

Go to a racetrack where you can really drop the hammer and you will always find yourself running slower in the FWD machine.

Seeing as how Ford Prefect's avatar is a picture of him driving his Mini on the N?rburgring, I think he may one step ahead of you. ;)
 
Ah, but here's the thing: there's no such thing as an equivalent FWD car. They might be similar in size or in the same price bracket, but they're still entirely different cars.
Of course that's true. But that doesn't invalidate the explanation. If you COULD have equivalent cars that were FWD and RWD -- and by that I mean with similar weight, power, and chassis stiffness, etc -- the RWD car will win, every single time.

In any case, even if it's easier to design a RWD car to handle well, proper-handling FWD cars do exist, which is all the OP asked.
Proper, maybe, but certainly not "excellent." No car that's FWD can be termed excellent since you cannot throttle steer it if need be. If you want to call that "excellent" then you need another term that's better than excellent for RWD cars.

Seeing as how Ford Prefect's avatar is a picture of him driving his Mini on the N?rburgring, I think he may one step ahead of you. ;)

Again, not saying there aren't fast FWD cars. But RWD cars are much, much better. Trickier to drive and scarier when you are going fast, but better.

Steve
 
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