Best home defense shotgun?

Spectre

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So, has anyone in this thread actually ever killed someone?

Yes. It was a car thief who I confronted in the middle of stealing one of my Jags about 6 years ago. He was half in the shattered window of my car, doing god knows what inside. He refused to obey my command to surrender and went for his back pocket with his left hand. I shot him until he stopped trying to go for his pocket and fell over, then called the police. Police came, found that he'd died from his wounds and had a .380 pistol (illegally possessed, they never found out where he got it but it wasn't legal) in his back pocket, DA declined to press charges and said it was self-defense and defense of property.

I have no regrets about shooting the a*****e. He had a long record of burglaries and felony assaults. Apparently he'd decided to move up to "the big leagues" and go for car theft and murder.

The only regret I had (at the time, aside from the tons and tons of paperwork and the days of answering police/DA questions) was that the bastard splashed all over the car. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get blood out of Connolly leather and Wilton wool?
 
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No Boss

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Yes. It was a car thief who I confronted in the middle of stealing one of my Jags about 6 years ago. He was half in the shattered window of my car, doing god knows what inside. He refused to obey my command to surrender and went for his back pocket with his left hand. I shot him until he stopped trying to go for his pocket and fell over, then called the police. Police came, found that he'd died from his wounds and had a .380 pistol (illegally possessed, they never found out where he got it but it wasn't legal) in his back pocket, DA declined to press charges and said it was self-defense and defense of property.

I have no regrets about shooting the a*****e. He had a long record of burglaries and felony assaults. Apparently he'd decided to move up to "the big leagues" and go for car theft and murder.

The only regret I had (at the time, aside from the tons and tons of paperwork and the days of answering police/DA questions) was that the bastard splashed all over the car. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get blood out of Connolly leather and Wilton wool?

That sounds like a movie... damn.
 

Steve Levin

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I know I'm late to the thread, but oh well.

1) don't use a shotgun for home defense. There's a signifcant chance that you'll get it ripped out of your hands moving through your house and have it used against you. There's a reason room entry leads carry handguns in most cases.

1a) that said, if you intention is strictly to stay in your room and only use it if someone enters, then rule #1 carries less weight.

1b) if you want to try and scare someone with sound, get a chainsaw. A big f'ing chainsaw. Honestly, yelling "I've called 911" is going to scare them a lot more since now the clock is running and they want to get a heck out.

2) Revolvers are your friends. They are simple, easy to use, have long trigger pulls to help overcome adrenaline, and can be loaded with big fat flat pointed bullets which minimize the ability to shoot your own family/friends/neighbors through walls. My recommendation is the biggest bore you can manage (for example, .44 special) loaded with target wadcutter rounds.

2a) if wadcutters don't work because the invaders are wearing body armor, the odds are you were screwed anyways.

2b) if you need more than six rounds, you've likely been invaded by the Russian Army and you were screwed anyways.

3) If you shoot someone, unless they drop straight to the floor and appear dead, you shoot them again.

3a) don't shoot someone unless you intend to kill them. "winging" people to stop them is for movies. And if you can get someone to bail under the threat of being shot, that's all the better. But you should always, always ALWAYS associate pulling the trigger with killing someone. NOT making that association will lead to an entirely bad decision chain.

3b) It is always better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

4) Always have your firearm loaded. Otherwise it's a brick. Except that a brick is actually a better weapon at that point.

Steve
 

Spectre

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I have to disagree with a number of your points here.

1) don't use a shotgun for home defense. There's a signifcant chance that you'll get it ripped out of your hands moving through your house and have it used against you. There's a reason room entry leads carry handguns in most cases.

2) Revolvers are your friends. They are simple, easy to use, have long trigger pulls to help overcome adrenaline, and can be loaded with big fat flat pointed bullets which minimize the ability to shoot your own family/friends/neighbors through walls. My recommendation is the biggest bore you can manage (for example, .44 special) loaded with target wadcutter rounds.

2a) if wadcutters don't work because the invaders are wearing body armor, the odds are you were screwed anyways.

2b) if you need more than six rounds, you've likely been invaded by the Russian Army and you were screwed anyways.

1) Entry teams down here have the lead equipped with a short shotgun firing breaching rounds or buckshot. The pistol is a secondary weapon. Also, it has been proven that "getting the weapon ripped from your hands" is a very very unlikely possibility.

2) Wadcutters are more likely to overpenetrate and go through typical modern house construction materials than hollowpoints. In addition, wadcutters will often punch right through a human and fail to create a large permanent wound channel OR transfer much energy. In addition, a .44 special revolver can generate sufficient recoil that it takes significant time to get the muzzle down for a followup shot. Therefore, it is not generally any of the experts' first choice in a defense arm. Col. Cooper, for example, recommended the .45 ACP in automatic or revolver.

2a) Though still small, a growing percentage of crooks are using armor. This is why having a weapon that either carries enough kinetic energy to physically stun or damage the opponent through his armor (shotgun) or can be rapidly retargeted and refired as needed is important (pistol and Mozambique drill).

2b) If there are three attackers, you need more than six rounds. Unless you can guarantee you won't ever miss, which even Carlos Hathcock couldn't. And as Katrina and the LA Riots proved, sometimes you need a LOT more rounds than six in your gun.

Other than that, most of your points are well taken.
 

Steve Levin

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1) Entry teams down here have the lead equipped with a short shotgun firing breaching rounds or buckshot. The pistol is a secondary weapon. Also, it has been proven that "getting the weapon ripped from your hands" is a very very unlikely possibility.

Sure, the shotgun is used to breach the door, but the guy who goes THROUGH that door is not two hands on a shotgun. Which is the other VERY key element I forgot to mention. Think about how you intend to accomplish your mission. In a standard entry scenario once the door is breached you are calling out who you are and telling people to get down -- and you have the implicit understanding that there's a team of people and that taking out one person is unlikely to result in victory. OTOH, taking out a single homeowner usually DOES let you get away.

2) Wadcutters are more likely to overpenetrate and go through typical modern house construction materials than hollowpoints. In addition, wadcutters will often punch right through a human and fail to create a large permanent wound channel OR transfer much energy.

Not light target wadcutter loads. And while Col. Cooper recommended the .45 ACP, he also recommends significant training.

BTW, a .44 Special generates little if any more recoil than a standard .45ACP load. The ballistics are virtually identical. Personally -- and I should have stated this -- I believe a .38 Special (not +P) wadcutter load is more than enough indoors. Years ago there used to be a .38 Special 125gr nylon coated lead hollow point that was a perfect home load. I still have some for my aluminum J frame Smith Bodyguard which is fairly delicate (not surprising since it weighs a mere 16 ounces loaded)

A .45 ACP for a novice is a terrible choice. Yes, I know Cooper always recommended it, but that was also in an era before the .40's, and for the most part until very late in age 9x19 was found only in FMJ. Another example of where Cooper wasn't particularly on target is 10mm. He was, if you recall, a significant advocate of the 10mm. I trained extensively with the M1911 in 10mm and while it's an awesome handgun, it's not a novice weapon at all. A number of people had issues quaifying with it, even though they had qualified using the 9x19. It remains MY weapon of choice over the years, but I've fired over 40,000 rounds of 10mm in training and am significantly "off the curve" in level of training and experience.

2a) Though still small, a growing percentage of crooks are using armor. This is why having a weapon that either carries enough kinetic energy to physically stun or damage the opponent through his armor (shotgun) or can be rapidly retargeted and refired as needed is important (pistol and Mozambique drill).

Trust me, you hit someone in armor with even the .38 wadcutter and they are not going to walk through it unless they are the most heavily trained and determined SAS types -- in which case, by this point, another member of his team has come up behind you and blown your head off.

Wrap a watermelon in armor one time and shoot it.

2b) If there are three attackers, you need more than six rounds. Unless you can guarantee you won't ever miss, which even Carlos Hathcock couldn't. And as Katrina and the LA Riots proved, sometimes you need a LOT more rounds than six in your gun.

If there are more than three attackers you need to leave. Either barricade yourself in your room or escape through a window, etc. Get in your vehicle and run people over. Never underestimate the kinetic energy of a Chevrolet.

Bottom line is, the standard engagement can easily be handled in six rounds, and statistically, the number of engagements that cannot be handled in 6 rounds but can be handled in 12 or 14 is near zero (because, as you've pointed out, in a mob scene you're going to get killed anyway. You *will* run out of ammo and you *will* be beaten to death in the end.

BTW, off subject, we trained to double tap always.

Steve
 
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Polly

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Wow, that has to be the most depressing thread on the whole forum.


/I'd better stay out of it.
//But then nobody could read this opinion of mine..
///Damn you, internets!
 

BlaRo

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^ Err...thanks for that, I guess. :?
 

Blind_Io

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Right, because a .50 cal nickel-plated sissy-pistol is equivalent to a shotgun.

I've seen the kind of people who buy Desert Eagles, most of the time they have a hard time hitting a 1 yard square target at a 15 yard range.
 

BerserkerCatSplat

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I've seen the kind of people who buy Desert Eagles, most of the time they have a hard time hitting a 1 yard square target at a 15 yard range.

I blame Counterstrike.
 

TC

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I blame Counterstrike.

I know Desert Eagles are a joke... but.... after watching Snatch... I'd buy one. Just for the hell of it. :p

I still think the Colt 1911 is the best handgun ever made. If they weren't so damned expensive, I would've gone for one rather then my Ruger.
 

Steve Levin

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I've not fired the .50 Eagle, but I had a chance many moons ago to test a .44 Mag version (the "original" Eagle, so again, showing my age).

Easy gun to fire. Gas recoil driven, soft as a kitten, lots of flame and noise. It was like a .22 Ruger Mk II in a lot of ways.

That said, it was half the size of the Titanic and weighed about as much...but man, I never burned through 100 rounds of ammo so quick in a handgun before. :)

Steve
 

tigger

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Since things are kind of drifting off topic anyway :p, maybe you guys could give me a little gun advice. Some time in the next few months I'd like to get a handgun, and I was thinking that a simple revolver would be a good place to start. I don't want a "hand cannon", maybe something like a .38 or .357? Any advice on makes, models, what to look for etc etc would be greatly appreciated.
 

Spectre

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Since things are kind of drifting off topic anyway :p, maybe you guys could give me a little gun advice. Some time in the next few months I'd like to get a handgun, and I was thinking that a simple revolver would be a good place to start. I don't want a "hand cannon", maybe something like a .38 or .357? Any advice on makes, models, what to look for etc etc would be greatly appreciated.

Why not make a separate thread, to avoid more confusion on this one? :)
 

Blind_Io

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Since things are kind of drifting off topic anyway :p, maybe you guys could give me a little gun advice. Some time in the next few months I'd like to get a handgun, and I was thinking that a simple revolver would be a good place to start. I don't want a "hand cannon", maybe something like a .38 or .357? Any advice on makes, models, what to look for etc etc would be greatly appreciated.

My all-time favorite pistol to shoot is a Smith and Wesson .38 Revolver with a 6" barrel. I don't think they make it with that length anymore, the most I see around is about 4", which is a pity, because with the 6" barrel that honey is a nail-driver!
 
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