Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
It's an Alfa Romeo 159 3.2 JTS Q4.
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Bretton Woods goes car shopping
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Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
After making a serious error and selling the slightly batty Nissan, it was pointed out that I'm in severe danger of having my petrol head enthusiast card confiscated. So for that reason, as well as one or two sensible considerations, I'm on the active hunt for a new car, or have been for the last 2 weeks. I thought that I would share what I've looked at so far.
My desire for a new set of wheels is a function of:
Fiscal responsibility - I don't want to have $25k worth of car (50% of my humble net worth) sitting around a railway station car park all week. I want to reallocate my wealth into some better investments
Severe car park anxiety - I may have a case of OCD and I can't park my car anywhere near other cars for fear of door dings. I reason that I can stand having some dings in a cheap car.
Selecting a new car has a baseline that it needs to be:
Cheap to buy and to run
Fun to drive (not necessarily fast)
Enthusiast credentials
Can you tell that my job involves creating presentations?
I reason that it doesn't have to be RWD, as a well sorted FWD is just as good 90% of the time, especially when driving on public roads in the police state I live in. With my budget of $7,500, this is the short list that I started out with:
Alfa Romeo 156 JTS
Alfa Romeo GTV
Nissan S14 200SX
Nissan R33 Skyline
Mazda NA6 MX5
Renaultsport Clio 172
BMW E30 318is
BMW E36 328i
BMW E39 535i
My desire for a new set of wheels is a function of:
Fiscal responsibility - I don't want to have $25k worth of car (50% of my humble net worth) sitting around a railway station car park all week. I want to reallocate my wealth into some better investments
Severe car park anxiety - I may have a case of OCD and I can't park my car anywhere near other cars for fear of door dings. I reason that I can stand having some dings in a cheap car.
Selecting a new car has a baseline that it needs to be:
Cheap to buy and to run
Fun to drive (not necessarily fast)
Enthusiast credentials
Can you tell that my job involves creating presentations?
I reason that it doesn't have to be RWD, as a well sorted FWD is just as good 90% of the time, especially when driving on public roads in the police state I live in. With my budget of $7,500, this is the short list that I started out with:
Alfa Romeo 156 JTS
Alfa Romeo GTV
Nissan S14 200SX
Nissan R33 Skyline
Mazda NA6 MX5
Renaultsport Clio 172
BMW E30 318is
BMW E36 328i
BMW E39 535i
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
Alfa Romeo 156 JTS
Alfa Romeo 156 JTS
The first one to check off the list was an Alfa Romeo 156 JTS.
How could this not be considered? The quintessential Italian small sedan, considered amongst the most beautiful looking cars in its class. You also simply can't considered a petrolhead until you've owned an Alfa. I found a rather nice looking one with full service history, mild odometer reading and what seemed to be a fairly intelligent owner.
That front end. That grille.
And then inside. That dash. Those dials. A wooden tiller. Sumptuous leather.
Sitting in the 156 is simply a rather lovely place to be. I know it's the worst motoring cliche, but they are very special cars to be in.
That, however, rather fell in a heap when I drove it. Perhaps it was the age of the transmission, but it was mushy and rather vague. The whole point of having a manual row-it-yourself stick it to feel engages and have utter control of the car. It just doesn't help when it feels like you're rowing through a tub of lard.
I think, though, that it will all be solved when I open the taps up and unleash those 121kW of rampaging Italian horses crammed under the bonnet. It's not the revelation I was hoping for or expecting. The rasp starts to build at 3,500rpm, but it just never develops into anything that I would call especially spirited nor fast.
After reading all about that Italian verve, spirit and passion, I was expecting a whole lot more. The 156 just never felt special to drive. A nice place to be, but I wouldn't call it a wonderful driver's car.
Maybe if I had tried the V6, that would be different. But with the wonderful facelifted front and manual? That was a tall order for my budget.
Off the list.
Alfa Romeo 156 JTS
The first one to check off the list was an Alfa Romeo 156 JTS.
How could this not be considered? The quintessential Italian small sedan, considered amongst the most beautiful looking cars in its class. You also simply can't considered a petrolhead until you've owned an Alfa. I found a rather nice looking one with full service history, mild odometer reading and what seemed to be a fairly intelligent owner.
That front end. That grille.
And then inside. That dash. Those dials. A wooden tiller. Sumptuous leather.
Sitting in the 156 is simply a rather lovely place to be. I know it's the worst motoring cliche, but they are very special cars to be in.
That, however, rather fell in a heap when I drove it. Perhaps it was the age of the transmission, but it was mushy and rather vague. The whole point of having a manual row-it-yourself stick it to feel engages and have utter control of the car. It just doesn't help when it feels like you're rowing through a tub of lard.
I think, though, that it will all be solved when I open the taps up and unleash those 121kW of rampaging Italian horses crammed under the bonnet. It's not the revelation I was hoping for or expecting. The rasp starts to build at 3,500rpm, but it just never develops into anything that I would call especially spirited nor fast.
After reading all about that Italian verve, spirit and passion, I was expecting a whole lot more. The 156 just never felt special to drive. A nice place to be, but I wouldn't call it a wonderful driver's car.
Maybe if I had tried the V6, that would be different. But with the wonderful facelifted front and manual? That was a tall order for my budget.
Off the list.
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
BMW E30 318is
BMW E30 318is
The BMW E30 318is.
When you want a classic BMW, the names that come to mind are hallowed and minted in the halls of glory; E28 M5, 2002 Turbo, M635CSi, E30 M3
So what about the mini E30 M3? That was very much the thinking behind my Nissan Pulsar GTi-R as the Mini Godzilla. That worked out well and completely without pain.
Whenever BMW come out with a small and powerful coupe, it inevitably gets compared to the E30. So, the benchmark for which all nostalgia is compared, what did I think of it?
I found a tidy looking one with a completely renewed cooling system that fell well within my budget. No rust, a completely intact interior and working locks (which apparently were a weak point).
I guess my first impression was retro; hardly surprising, eh? I liked the classic BMW dials that seem to have hardly changed in the two decades hence and the seats were comfortable enough. I guess I could learn to like and love this car, but nothing really made me want the car from the get-go.
Solid thunks from the door close and barely a whir before the four-pot fired. The steering was light and direct. The car pointed and darted where I wanted it to go wonderfully quickly.
It wasn't what I would call fast though.
There are cars that were genuinely quick, but through a mash up of ride and sound insulation, never betray how quickly you're losing your licence. There are also cars that, through a mixture of character, lack of refinement, verve and racket just feel so much faster than you're actually going. The BMW fell into the odd and fairly lame category of slow...and you can feel how slow it is. The tachometer felt like it took an age to rise and the engine just seemed to become louder. I never thought I would accuse a car with such an enthusiast following of being boring, but that's what it felt like to me. And this was the sporty 's' model.
Competent. That's how I would describe it. It checked all the boxes for a great driving car. Lightweight, RWD, massive street cred and that wonderfully boxy stance. It checked all the boxes, but it didn't seem to excel to any particular degree.
Off the list.
BMW E30 318is
The BMW E30 318is.
When you want a classic BMW, the names that come to mind are hallowed and minted in the halls of glory; E28 M5, 2002 Turbo, M635CSi, E30 M3
So what about the mini E30 M3? That was very much the thinking behind my Nissan Pulsar GTi-R as the Mini Godzilla. That worked out well and completely without pain.
Whenever BMW come out with a small and powerful coupe, it inevitably gets compared to the E30. So, the benchmark for which all nostalgia is compared, what did I think of it?
I found a tidy looking one with a completely renewed cooling system that fell well within my budget. No rust, a completely intact interior and working locks (which apparently were a weak point).
I guess my first impression was retro; hardly surprising, eh? I liked the classic BMW dials that seem to have hardly changed in the two decades hence and the seats were comfortable enough. I guess I could learn to like and love this car, but nothing really made me want the car from the get-go.
Solid thunks from the door close and barely a whir before the four-pot fired. The steering was light and direct. The car pointed and darted where I wanted it to go wonderfully quickly.
It wasn't what I would call fast though.
There are cars that were genuinely quick, but through a mash up of ride and sound insulation, never betray how quickly you're losing your licence. There are also cars that, through a mixture of character, lack of refinement, verve and racket just feel so much faster than you're actually going. The BMW fell into the odd and fairly lame category of slow...and you can feel how slow it is. The tachometer felt like it took an age to rise and the engine just seemed to become louder. I never thought I would accuse a car with such an enthusiast following of being boring, but that's what it felt like to me. And this was the sporty 's' model.
Competent. That's how I would describe it. It checked all the boxes for a great driving car. Lightweight, RWD, massive street cred and that wonderfully boxy stance. It checked all the boxes, but it didn't seem to excel to any particular degree.
Off the list.
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Here's a vote for the E36 328i. It falls in a peculiar category now. It's too old for most poseurs and chavs, yet they haven't yet reached the same status as the venerable E30 has. That makes even unmolested examples relatively cheap. Also, it's the best of the E36s. It's got all the platform facelifts and upgrades the older models lack. It's relatively economical, mine does 8.5 l/100km if I treat it gently (12+ when I drive it hard). They do tend to rust in the usual spots, and have a few specific weaknesses, but most are relatively easily rectified.
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
Nissan S14 200SX
Nissan S14 200SX
My friend owns one of these. He's completely and utterly batshit insane, in the kindest possible way.
His Nissan is boosted, makes 200+kW at the wheels, runs 8" wide rims on all four corners, is stripped out and lacks rear seats & carpets. It has also just returned from Police impound.
The looks have steadily grown on me every time I see these cars and I've grown from being oblivious to tolerance and probably edging on liking the looks, especially of the series 2.
This car was and is still quite high on my list. They can be dead reliable. They be driven in such a way as to not attract every single policeman in a 10km radius. They can be found in original, unmolested condition. I haven't found one.
I was quite close to finding a good one in my price range on two occasions.
The first time the seller neglected to tell me the sheer amount of malicious damage to the paint. It seems someone really took offence and demonstrated as much with a key. Or an angle grinder. Some of the marks were so deep, it's somewhat difficult to tell.
The second time the seller neglected to mention it was automatic.
It's not off the list, but perhaps I'm a bit optimistic about finding a good one for this kind of money.
Renaultsport Clio 172
This one's for Hbriz.
There are two groups which, in my humble opinion, make the best hot hatchbacks. Forget the guff from Mercedes and BMW in their A45 AMG and M135i, respectively. Who pays that amount of money for a hatchback?
Honda and Renault. You could make the argument that Peugeot started it all and that the 205 GTi was a revelation, but since then? 206 GTi? Seriously?
Honda Civic Type R. Renault Clio. Renault Megane. I think the case could be made very convincingly for any of those cars. In fact, a Civic Type R poster has concealed a hole in the wall since I was 17. It's still there.
Small. French.
That's what I initially thought of the Clio. But Hbriz has steadily waged a campaign to say otherwise.
Small. French. Fast.
That's my current thinking.
This particular Clio was sold by the absolute epitome of the used car salesman. Sleazy would be an understatement.
The list of things wrong with this car is long and my irritations with the salesman is longer. Who seriously claims that they know nothing about the things they sell? Claims that they're 'Not a Renault expert...' as an answer to all questions directed their way.
This particular gentlemen tried telling me that the rear window wiper was 'optional', that the Ikea plastic plug used to fill the hole was 'standard'. He also said that he saw 'nothing wrong' with the mess of wires used to hook up the after-market angel eye head lights. Never mind the exposed contacts where the poor splices were made.
No rust? Except for the bit under the naff faux-carbon wrap on the boot lid.
An aftermarket stereo was professionally installed...by a bunch of apes who drilled holes everywhere in the trim to fit wires.
The exhaust was an 'upgrade', which looked suspiciously like a poo-shooter from a mid 90s Hyundai (before their standards perked up) simply installed to pass noise emissions testing.
Not sinful against this make of car, but this particular example had been molested within an inch of its life. I don't think a particularly inclined Catholic priest could do a better job.
Nissan S14 200SX
My friend owns one of these. He's completely and utterly batshit insane, in the kindest possible way.
His Nissan is boosted, makes 200+kW at the wheels, runs 8" wide rims on all four corners, is stripped out and lacks rear seats & carpets. It has also just returned from Police impound.
The looks have steadily grown on me every time I see these cars and I've grown from being oblivious to tolerance and probably edging on liking the looks, especially of the series 2.
This car was and is still quite high on my list. They can be dead reliable. They be driven in such a way as to not attract every single policeman in a 10km radius. They can be found in original, unmolested condition. I haven't found one.
I was quite close to finding a good one in my price range on two occasions.
The first time the seller neglected to tell me the sheer amount of malicious damage to the paint. It seems someone really took offence and demonstrated as much with a key. Or an angle grinder. Some of the marks were so deep, it's somewhat difficult to tell.
The second time the seller neglected to mention it was automatic.
It's not off the list, but perhaps I'm a bit optimistic about finding a good one for this kind of money.
Renaultsport Clio 172
This one's for Hbriz.
There are two groups which, in my humble opinion, make the best hot hatchbacks. Forget the guff from Mercedes and BMW in their A45 AMG and M135i, respectively. Who pays that amount of money for a hatchback?
Honda and Renault. You could make the argument that Peugeot started it all and that the 205 GTi was a revelation, but since then? 206 GTi? Seriously?
Honda Civic Type R. Renault Clio. Renault Megane. I think the case could be made very convincingly for any of those cars. In fact, a Civic Type R poster has concealed a hole in the wall since I was 17. It's still there.
Small. French.
That's what I initially thought of the Clio. But Hbriz has steadily waged a campaign to say otherwise.
Small. French. Fast.
That's my current thinking.
This particular Clio was sold by the absolute epitome of the used car salesman. Sleazy would be an understatement.
The list of things wrong with this car is long and my irritations with the salesman is longer. Who seriously claims that they know nothing about the things they sell? Claims that they're 'Not a Renault expert...' as an answer to all questions directed their way.
This particular gentlemen tried telling me that the rear window wiper was 'optional', that the Ikea plastic plug used to fill the hole was 'standard'. He also said that he saw 'nothing wrong' with the mess of wires used to hook up the after-market angel eye head lights. Never mind the exposed contacts where the poor splices were made.
No rust? Except for the bit under the naff faux-carbon wrap on the boot lid.
An aftermarket stereo was professionally installed...by a bunch of apes who drilled holes everywhere in the trim to fit wires.
The exhaust was an 'upgrade', which looked suspiciously like a poo-shooter from a mid 90s Hyundai (before their standards perked up) simply installed to pass noise emissions testing.
Not sinful against this make of car, but this particular example had been molested within an inch of its life. I don't think a particularly inclined Catholic priest could do a better job.
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Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
I've having a really hard time finding one in good condition for my budget. Good ones can be had outside of the limit, but if I stretch that far, I could have a good RX-8 (which was on the shortlist of a high budget).
Heathrow
Yes, as in the airport.
The BMW E30 318is is the one to get, if you can. The E30 I had was a 323iA in the light metallic blue, which was a very pretty car but not very fast. The boot was very small and the doors were too long, so I always had to be careful opening them in multi-storey car parks.
Good ones are rare / expensive here now.
Good ones are rare / expensive here now.
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
Tried one. See above.
sifu
Well-Known Member
Yes.. the motor was the main point when i thought about 156 (without the facelift). v6 just sings when it went over 5k rpm and after 7k it was just nirvana..
Hbriz
Ballroom Blitz
You didn't actually go and look at that one, did you?! That car is the laughing stock of the entire Australian RenaultSport forum. It's been for sale for months, I wonder why? I wouldn't touch that one with a barge pole.
The cosmetic 'improvements' are one thing, the oversized wheels also ruin the handling - you don't want anything more than 16" on these.
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
I did. It was terrible. It may well have put me off stupid small French cars forever.
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I'm liking this thread, looking forward to what you try next. That Clio is hideous by the way.
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
Volvo S40 T5
Volvo S40 T5
What kind of car enthusiast actually wants a Volvo? it may not be entirely applicable in the rest of the world, but to every Australian here, "Bloody Volvo driver" is a well-worn phrase.
They aren't rot-boxes on the roads, but they will inevitably be driven by some idiot who can't drive, cuts you up and then drives at 10kph below the limit and never signals. Why would I want to be branded with that sort aura and attract the scorn of every other road user?
Because I made my girlfriend buy one.
At the time, I was thinking first car she will own; it needs to be safe. What else could be safer than a Volvo? I might drive this thing from time to time; better tell her to buy the biggest engine available.
Unfortunately, (or fortunately as _HighVoltage_ may see it) I've kind of grown to like that S40. I mean really like it.
A torquey T5 engine connected to a 5-speed slushbox actually made for an enormously comfortable cruiser. We've driven to and from Sydney and Adelaide in it. Not the short way, but the long way along the coast. It's genuinely fast, quiet, and can attack corners with genuinely surprising pace.
Considering we picked hers up in the mid teens, I thought I was incredibly lucky to find one that fits inside my very limiting budget. In an earlier revision of this car search when the budget stretched to the mid teens, I had specifically included the Ford Focus XR5 (ST for everyone else) simply because it shared that wonderfully warbly 5-cylinder engine with the Volvo.
I'm slowly learning that, for the most part, the market is efficient. The price is the price and it's there for a reason. There's a good reason why a salivatingly-gorgeous new F12 will cost me several decades of work, whilst a rotbox won't cost me a batted eyelid. The Volvo was no exception.
I know for a fact that the T5 engine is hardy, almost 120mm armour-piercing-discarding-sabot-shell-proof (forget bullet proof, that's an understatement). So why, did this engine dump enormous clouds of smoke on the throttle. From new, this engine puts out a paltry 162kW. Ford have tweaked the same engine with mild modifications to a warranty-backed 260kW. Tuning shops see a '3' appended to the front of that number. Let's say I was wary.
Interior.
Small pebble garden collecting in the driver's footwell. Marks on the leather upholstery. Was my time not even worth a 5 minute vacuum?
Exterior.
Marks on the wheels. I can deal with severe gutter rash, after all I'm paying song for this.
Why does that panel gap not match? Where's the under engine cladding? Is that a missing engine mount bolt?!
Wild card anyway. Off the list.
Volvo S40 T5
What kind of car enthusiast actually wants a Volvo? it may not be entirely applicable in the rest of the world, but to every Australian here, "Bloody Volvo driver" is a well-worn phrase.
They aren't rot-boxes on the roads, but they will inevitably be driven by some idiot who can't drive, cuts you up and then drives at 10kph below the limit and never signals. Why would I want to be branded with that sort aura and attract the scorn of every other road user?
Because I made my girlfriend buy one.
At the time, I was thinking first car she will own; it needs to be safe. What else could be safer than a Volvo? I might drive this thing from time to time; better tell her to buy the biggest engine available.
Unfortunately, (or fortunately as _HighVoltage_ may see it) I've kind of grown to like that S40. I mean really like it.
A torquey T5 engine connected to a 5-speed slushbox actually made for an enormously comfortable cruiser. We've driven to and from Sydney and Adelaide in it. Not the short way, but the long way along the coast. It's genuinely fast, quiet, and can attack corners with genuinely surprising pace.
Considering we picked hers up in the mid teens, I thought I was incredibly lucky to find one that fits inside my very limiting budget. In an earlier revision of this car search when the budget stretched to the mid teens, I had specifically included the Ford Focus XR5 (ST for everyone else) simply because it shared that wonderfully warbly 5-cylinder engine with the Volvo.
I'm slowly learning that, for the most part, the market is efficient. The price is the price and it's there for a reason. There's a good reason why a salivatingly-gorgeous new F12 will cost me several decades of work, whilst a rotbox won't cost me a batted eyelid. The Volvo was no exception.
I know for a fact that the T5 engine is hardy, almost 120mm armour-piercing-discarding-sabot-shell-proof (forget bullet proof, that's an understatement). So why, did this engine dump enormous clouds of smoke on the throttle. From new, this engine puts out a paltry 162kW. Ford have tweaked the same engine with mild modifications to a warranty-backed 260kW. Tuning shops see a '3' appended to the front of that number. Let's say I was wary.
Interior.
Small pebble garden collecting in the driver's footwell. Marks on the leather upholstery. Was my time not even worth a 5 minute vacuum?
Exterior.
Marks on the wheels. I can deal with severe gutter rash, after all I'm paying song for this.
Why does that panel gap not match? Where's the under engine cladding? Is that a missing engine mount bolt?!
Wild card anyway. Off the list.
MWF
Now needs wood
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Not got to the MX5 yet? You saving the (potential) best to last?
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
I know that I've listed a NA6 MX5 above, but I should have listed the NA8. In recent times the prices have started to rise as good unmolested ones are becoming rarer. I actually think it's a similar situation to the Nissan 200SX. A year or two ago the cars were quite plentiful and cheap. It was not very difficult to find one in decent condition. Now most of them are rot-boxes that are falling apart with dodgy mechanicals and disintegrating interiors.
The NA6 can be had with high odometer readings in my budget, but for the same amount of money I could have a more powerful Nissan Skyline or a younger Renault. Would anyone buy an NA6 over an NA8?
The NA6 can be had with high odometer readings in my budget, but for the same amount of money I could have a more powerful Nissan Skyline or a younger Renault. Would anyone buy an NA6 over an NA8?
AudiEnthusiast
Active Member
Colleague of mine got a 156...just don't do it. Beautiful car, but it does confirm all your prejudices about Alfa Romeos.
I don't know the australian car market, but I would try the e36.
Here in Germany, it's time as the car of morons with trousers hanging too low and meeting up in front of McDonalds at night is slowly over.
Stood in front of an unmodified e36 just 2 days ago and for the first time ever i caught myself thinking: "well, it's not an ugly car at all".
They are still cheap around here, because still everybody expects you to be an 18-year old from some southern european country when you are driving one, but this will change. When this happens, you may have shot an collectable for an laughable amount of money.
But it has to be in absolute factory condition, decent engine (328i) and some nice extras. Just no stock.
Go for it!
Edit: personally, I want one like this: http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-insera...&negativeFeatures=EXPORT&categories=EstateCar
I don't know the australian car market, but I would try the e36.
Here in Germany, it's time as the car of morons with trousers hanging too low and meeting up in front of McDonalds at night is slowly over.
Stood in front of an unmodified e36 just 2 days ago and for the first time ever i caught myself thinking: "well, it's not an ugly car at all".
They are still cheap around here, because still everybody expects you to be an 18-year old from some southern european country when you are driving one, but this will change. When this happens, you may have shot an collectable for an laughable amount of money.
But it has to be in absolute factory condition, decent engine (328i) and some nice extras. Just no stock.
Go for it!
Edit: personally, I want one like this: http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-insera...&negativeFeatures=EXPORT&categories=EstateCar
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Lastsoul
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The 1.6 115hp engine in NA6 is much more rev happy than the lazy 128hp 1.8 in NA8. 1.8 is also a bit heavier, as '94 cars got a facelift. New dash, some reinforcements and other stuff. That means real power to weight ratio is actually quite close between the two engines, and the 1.6 character suits the car much better. Later NBs, especially the facelifted cars with variable intake timing match the rev happiness of the NA6, but the NB body itself is a bit toned town. Better for everyday usability, but not as pure experience as original.
Bretton Woods
Well-Known Member
I've been influenced by a NA8-driving colleague. He's maintained that the 1.8l version's extra power and chassis bracing made it quite superior. You make a very good point that I will keep in mind for the future.
It's quite difficult to find a good and tidy example of an E34 328i coupe at the moment. Almost all of the ones I've viewed are very tired examples which would require significant R&R. Those examples which are in good and acceptable condition fall outside of the budget. I have seen a few good examples on fire sale, but that was before I began actively looking to buy.