Cali. wants spanking to be illegal. Blind_IO last seen cursing parents, wallowing.

Jay

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Yes, it was here too. 40 years ago, in the south, segregation was the norm. It wasn't right.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Back up. Segragation and child punishment are two VERY different things. What you need to understand is that a child see the world as black and white, good or bad, right or wrong. There is no gray areas in a childs mind. Spanking a child reinforces the lessoned learned, otherwise, there are no boundaries and the sense of right and wrong is skewed in their very simple minds. You cannot reason with a child like you do with an adult. They need the distinctions of good and bad. In my opinion if you do try to reason with a child, lets say a child under the age of 8, you have neither raised children, or would make for a very poor parent.
 

Jay

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It ain't murder, it is punishment and for the families of the victims, closure.

And I doubt spanking is really that damaging to a child. Just look at what the last generation has accomplished.
My father went further and beat, punched and kicked me regularly until I was 16. I turned out fine, I have no murderous intents nor am I a sociopath, and the anger between my father and me is gone after a long talk, apologies, and we came to an understanding. That and I have asked God to forgive my Father for what he had did to me, and likewise my father asked for forgiveness from God.
 

Top Geek

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Nobody who was spanked as a child grows to be a child abuser solely because they were spanked. If they grow up as abusive adults, there were clearly many other factors at play.

Remember what your parents said every time they spanked you? "This hurts me more than than it hurts you". It's because they do it out of love, not anger. Anger is what classifies abuse. It's for the same reason that a murder committed out of hatred ("Hate Crime", ie: killing because of racism) is considered more heinous by law than a murder committed without the "hate crime" factor (yes, I know we could argue that murder is murder, and obviously you'd have to hate someone to commit it, but let's not bicker about semantics).

Why do the parent need to do it in the first place?
Because young children are not "mini-adults" that can be reasoned with, and you're only fooling yourself and harming your child if you think otherwise.

The point is, that spanking, and all sorts of physical way of inflicting pain of any sort, seems to increase the chance that the child will use violence as a grown up. That's what scientists say.
Hmm...are you going to believe a few government-hired scientists who mostly theorize and hypothesize or a psychologist with first-hand experience? (Blind_Io)

My father went further and beat, punched and kicked me regularly until I was 16. I turned out fine, I have no murderous intents nor am I a sociopath, and the anger between my father and me is gone after a long talk, apologies, and we came to an understanding.
I'm sorry to hear that, but let me say that this is proof alone that spanking doesn't cause children to grow up as abusive adults. If jawhawk can grow up as a normal human being after what was clearly abuse, then surely spanking isn't the cause of abusive adults.
 
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Firecat

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There are a lot of other ways that parents can "damage" their children, even purely through verbal abuse.

A little spanking won't hurt anybody. I got my ass beat as a child. And I see a lot of kids running around now that need a good whipping....
 

Blind_Io

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There are a lot of other ways that parents can "damage" their children, even purely through verbal abuse.

A little spanking won't hurt anybody. I got my ass beat as a child. And I see a lot of kids running around now that need a good whipping....
How about through being too permissive? That can screw up a kid more than a spanking. In fact the kids of most permissive parents desperately need a whack on the ass, because the parents let the kid do whatever s/he wants with no consequences. What do you think that will translate to when the kid is an adult? Chances are you have met someone who is the result of a permissive parent. They tend to be self-absorbed, egocentric, entitled, whiny, and never take responsibility for their own actions.

Have fun with that.
 

Firecat

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^I've also seen young kids talking back to their parents, showing no respect whatsoever (that really pisses me off).

But you're right, at the end of the day...it's the parents fault. So I guess I really shouldn't give a damn.
 

jeffy777

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The public middle school I went to in Indiana had a policy: 3 strikes and you're out. The third time you ended up in the principal's office, you were getting paddled. It definitely kept us in line. I was sent to the principal twice my 7th grade year, but made for dang certain that didn't run into the principal again. I'm sure there would have been a lot more ruckus and trouble-making had that policy not been in effect.

I'm pretty certain they don't maintain that policy any longer.....This was the early 90's....

I think parents have the right to spank their kids and, when used properly, it's an effective tool in training children.
 
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espadaMK

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I am actually a teacher and a lot of parents are way too soft on their kids. You have a kid causing a riot in the classroom so you give them a detention. Then all you get is the parent saying their child is a little angel who would never do anything wrong and that they will not let them do a detention.
 

nomix

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It ain't murder, it is punishment and for the families of the victims, closure.
So, if we imagine that someone kills my father, and I kill him, I've seen him kill my father, I know it's him, and I kill the bastard, to punish him, that would be a crime.

But if we wait for two-three months, and let a group of "honorable adults" in suits deciede that the bastard is a bastard, and then deciede that the state should murder him in a honorable and civilized manner, that is ok?

There is a saying, there is justifiable murder, there is unjustifiable murder, understandeble murder, for the poor sod getting killed, it's pretty much the same.

In Norway, we got rid of blood revenge in the 1400s. Revenge is not in all times the same as closure. Not at all. It won't bring the victim back, but it might bring the family of the condemned grief.

To be honest, life in prison even seems a worse punishment in my mind.

I'm just opposed it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Back up. Segragation and child punishment are two VERY different things.
A was not comparing, I was saying that we are all influenced of our time, and the culture around us, that's basic, but it doesn't need to be right just because of that.

Nobody who was spanked as a child grows to be a child abuser solely because they were spanked. If they grow up as abusive adults, there were clearly many other factors at play.
My point is, it might be a factor.



I'm sorry to hear that, but let me say that this is proof alone that spanking doesn't cause children to grow up as abusive adults. If jawhawk can grow up as a normal human being after what was clearly abuse, then surely spanking isn't the cause of abusive adults.
That is not conclusive proof, in the same way that two young guys shooting someone after listening to Marilyn Manson, doesn't mean that Marilyn Manson's music creates savage killers.

How about through being too permissive? That can screw up a kid more than a spanking. In fact the kids of most permissive parents desperately need a whack on the ass, because the parents let the kid do whatever s/he wants with no consequences. What do you think that will translate to when the kid is an adult? Chances are you have met someone who is the result of a permissive parent. They tend to be self-absorbed, egocentric, entitled, whiny, and never take responsibility for their own actions.

Have fun with that.
Being to permissive is wrong. Bringing up a child is hard, but I think you're giving up when you resort to violence. That's what it is, violence. Nothing to argue. It's soft violence, but still violence.

^I've also seen young kids talking back to their parents, showing no respect whatsoever (that really pisses me off).
That depends. I think anyone should be able to say what they want, even children, and if a child doesn't agree, he or she should say what he or she means. But showing respect is important. I would agree that disrespect of the worst sort deserves a sort of negative sanction, if not "spanking".

I am actually a teacher and a lot of parents are way too soft on their kids. You have a kid causing a riot in the classroom so you give them a detention. Then all you get is the parent saying their child is a little angel who would never do anything wrong and that they will not let them do a detention.
That's a very big problem, especially bullies. I am speaking of personal experience.

Note: I agree that I have been too categorical in this question, I guess it is caused by my culture, and my views on the subject. A child should be faced by psychology, not with violence, in my oppinion.

Sorry, if I've made some people angry, sometimes, I just get a bit carried away. It's human, I guess.
 

KaJuN

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^ Sorry don't agree. Death penalty is wrong.
Agreed. A muder victim's family has to suffer their loss for the rest of their lives. Why should the murderer have his/her suffering ended sooner?
 

Cobol74

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Whoa, whoa, whoa. Back up. Segragation and child punishment are two VERY different things. What you need to understand is that a child see the world as black and white, good or bad, right or wrong. There is no gray areas in a childs mind. Spanking a child reinforces the lessoned learned, otherwise, there are no boundaries and the sense of right and wrong is skewed in their very simple minds. You cannot reason with a child like you do with an adult. They need the distinctions of good and bad. In my opinion if you do try to reason with a child, lets say a child under the age of 8, you have neither raised children, or would make for a very poor parent.
I have to disagree, children are people and you can discuss actions and consequences with them at a surprisingly young age, certainly under 8. I find that if the Mrs or I says that they made us feel unhappy because of with what they did then that is like the punishment bit. But young children have to be corrected immediately otherwise they do not remember the circumstances and they can get confused. Obviously the amount of correction should be proportionate. Conversely never 'reward' bad behaviour, sweets bought to bribe them to do something gives them the wrong message IMHO.
 

KaJuN

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Cobol reminded me of another beef I have with our justice system. The courts believe teens can be as responsible as adults, and in many cases they end up being tried as adults. Yet they don't get any other responsibilites and freedoms of adulthood. (Voting, drinking, smoking, ect.) It seems unfair that they can skew their definition of adulthood when it suits their means. Ok I'm done. [/rant]
 

nomix

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One could argue that life in prison is more cruel.
I don't know if it's more cruel, from that viewpoint, you might argue that we can't put anyone in jail, it's cruel in its own way. Then the question comes up, is anarchy the answer? Not in my mind, and not in yours, I'm sure.

Another problem is, that when someone is executed, and the person later is deemed innocent, you can't, like, get them back to life. From what I've gathered, some lawyers looked into a number of murder cases, and got shocked by how inadiquate the defense of the majority of condemned were, most of them poor, they might be wrong, but it doesn't give me confidence. Other studies show that rich get equited more often than poor.

Questionable.

Cobol reminded me of another beef I have with our justice system. The courts believe teens can be as responsible as adults, and in many cases they end up being tried as adults. Yet they don't get any other responsibilites and freedoms of adulthood. (Voting, drinking, smoking, ect.) It seems unfair that they can skew their definition of adulthood when it suits their means. Ok I'm done. [/rant]
I agree. It's stupid. It's like feminism, really, extreme feminists (at least those I've met), believe they [women] should have all the advances of equal rights (and I think they should), but that they should be relieved of a lot of the duties (which I don't think they should).

It's pathetic. You call it "minor" because they ARE minor, they are not deemed as responsible in the letter of the law, but yet they're expected to follow the same laws as anyone else, even though they have no right to influence the laws being made. The only minority legal to discrimminate politically, is youths.

Makes me mad.
 

TC

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I think the current system is fine. Most youths will be tried as minors, but some minors think they can get away with anything because they're not yet 18. They abuse it and try and scam the system. And they should be tried as adults in those cases.

But it's a double edged sword. Once a person is no longer a minor, then they loose certain other rights. You cannot have the right to vote, smoke, drink, etc.... and then charge someone with child abuse because they punched you. Or how you're parents have to provide certain things for you until you're of age. Would that be void? Would parents be legally allowed to kick out their "adult" 14 year old children onto the street to fend for themselves?
 

Blind_Io

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I have to disagree, children are people and you can discuss actions and consequences with them at a surprisingly young age, certainly under 8.
Just because you can "discuss" it does not mean that they can comprehend it.

I have worked with adolescents and children and have taken many classes in developmental and child psychology. One of my professors is one of the most respected child therapists west of the Mississippi, and I have pages of notes from her lectures showing exactly the opposite of what you postulate.

People with no training or experience in psychology really need to stop saying stuff like this, it leads to bad parenting.
 

Cobol74

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^ Mine do, all three of them.

I am not telling other people what to do, just what works for me. I hope with all your training you can write a book on the subject, like say Dr. Spock and make the world a better place.
 
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