Canadian College Teacher Trying to Reason with SJWs (AKA: tumblr is leaking)

Mitchi

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SJW is a real term that is used by SJWs themselves.... Feminazi is also far from a fringe right term, it describes a very specific type of a feminist, generally one that believes that men are inferior in every possible way and only needed for creating children (for now).
This, so much this. This isn't against feminism or equal rights, this is about making men less important than women. For whatever reason.
 

Dr_Grip

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And I think that's exactly the crucial point - while some of the 3rd wave feminists might be overshooting the goal by a country mile, generally speaking we are far from equality right now.

And the scary point is: Moving from a male-dominated to an equal society of course means less power for men. Moving from male-dominated to an equal work environement means less great jobs for men (assuming, for the sake of the argument, a fixed amount of available jobs), and so on. We men (myself included) sometimes don't see how the way it's always been is a way that priviliges us before woman in many ways and that true equality means for us having to step back a bit.

Same holds true for making fun of a dozen or more genders: I think that splitting "gender" into 30 or more categories makes no sense (as many of the listed "genders" are sub-categories like "macho", "nerd" or "guido" might be for straight males).
Nevertheless, I also think people with a simple gender identity (straight, gay or bi and experienced gender and physical sex being identical) can't truly understand the struggle of people who who don't feel at ease with their identity or sexual organisation. Thus, I think more than the two physical sexes are needed to describe all variations of human sexual identity.
Unlike with equality, this won't harm us "simple cases", either, so what's the hassle. It's not like we will run out of disk space by changing a toggle to a dropdown :)
 
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prizrak

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generally speaking we are far from equality right now.
Where do you see this lack of equality?

And the scary point is: Moving from a male-dominated to an equal society of course means less power for men.
No it means more power to women, you are acting as if that's a 0 sum game, I for one am struggling to think of any power I have as a man.

Moving from male-dominated to an equal work environement means less great jobs for men (assuming, for the sake of the argument, a fixed amount of available jobs), and so on.
Where is the inequality at work? I work in an IT firm yet my PM (basically my boss as she assigns tasks to me) is a woman, a crap ton of our Java developers are women and my company is far from hugely progressive.

Nevertheless, I also think people with a simple gender identity (straight, gay or bi and experienced gender and physical sex being identical) can't truly understand the struggle of people who who don't feel at ease with their identity or sexual organisation. Thus, I think more than the two physical sexes are needed to describe all variations of human sexual identity.
You are conflating multiple things here, straight, gay or bi are sexual preferences and have nothing to do with a gender. Like me liking dark skinned girls with big butts is not my gender identity but rather what turns me on.

Gender is 100% physical, there are actually 5 real genders:
1)male - XY chromosomes, male external genitalia
2)female - XX chromosomes, female external genitalia
3)pseudo-hermaphrodite male - XY chromosomes, female external genitalia
4)pseudo-hermaphrodite female - XX chromosomes, male external genitalia
5)hermaphrodite - XXY chromosomes, can have both sets of genitalia

Everything else is a job for a mental health professional
Unlike with equality, this won't harm us "simple cases", either, so what's the hassle. It's not like we will run out of disk space by changing a toggle to a dropdown :)
I will call you anything you want me to call you, I will respect you regardless of your identity, you can think you are a dragon kin it makes no difference to me but don't force it down my throat. That's what the entire case in Canada is about in the first place, the fact that people are trying to force others to call them by some insane pronouns.
 

Dr_Grip

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Everything else is a job for a mental health professional
The whole idea of a separation between sex and gender is to uncouple psychological gender and physical sex. That's not even third-wave feminism.

Where's the harm in calling people the way they want to be called?

For the other points about "equality", I will not discuss this further. If you don't want to see it, you will throw statistics and anecdotical evidence against anything I can say until we both lose our temper. Life's too short for that.
 
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prizrak

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The whole idea of a separation between sex and gender is to uncouple psychological gender and physical sex. That's not even third-wave feminism.
There has been no scientific evidence that there is such a thing as psychological gender, if some come up I will change my mind on it.

Where's the harm in calling people the way they want to be called?
Ahem:
prizrak said:
I will call you anything you want me to call you, I will respect you regardless of your identity, you can think you are a dragon kin it makes no difference to me but don't force it down my throat. That's what the entire case in Canada is about in the first place, the fact that people are trying to force others to call them by some insane pronouns.
For the other points about "equality", I will not discuss this further. If you don't want to see it, you will throw statistics and anecdotical evidence against anything I can say until we both lose our temper. Life's too short for that.
It is of course 100% up to you, I wouldn't lose my temper or reject evidence I haven't even seen yet. I am not aware of any kind of systematic inequality between men and women in the workplace*

*Not to say that it doesn't happen or that specific companies don't do it, simply that I have yet to see any evidence of a general inequality.
 

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The "humourous explainer" is a "politician" for an extreme right-wing party (as in "happily welcome Holocaust deniers in their ranks").
A truth is a truth no matter who says it. Hitler himself could have said the earth is bigger in size than the moon and you cannot refute that by saying "Hitler was awful". This list is still ridiculous.

Actually, well, my girlfriend is a third-wave feminist.
Well then it's my time to pity you. Enjoy the tippy-toeing around every single issue ever, lest you say something wrong and she gets triggered.

Where's the harm in calling people the way they want to be called?


There's absolutely no harm, just a gigantic problem with it: Unless they wear their pronouns around their neck all the time like if it was a facebook profile, you simply can't guess by looking at someone which pronouns their prefer.
It's fine if you're with a friend of yours for whom you already know this information but there are many people, including those in the original video, who really don't understand this very basic point. You just can't make up genders, make up pronouns, and expect everyone to remember every single one of them.

Is it any news to anyone that heterosexual males all have different preferences?
Would a male who prefers only blondes be in his right to get angry when someone doesn't refer to him as Jeh, instead of "he", because that's what he came up with?

Look, what people do with their own bodies, and in the privacy of their rooms is absolutely no concern of mine nor will I oppose to two people doing anything as long as there is mutual consent.
Asking me to memorize a never ending list of ways I must speak so they don't get offended is completely different, for the very simple reason that I don't expect it from them, either.

As for inequalities, there are some minor concerns in today's society but all the major hurdles are way behind. All the legal stuff has been dealt with, it's literally illegal to pay someone less based on their gender, race, or religion.
Look for a law which applies to only one gender, or don't waste your time, cos there aren't any.

Edit:

To add to the completely moronic notion that I don't get feminism because I'm not around strong women, I was raised by a doctor with two specialties, my sister is a veterinarian and my girlfriend an air traffic controller. All three of them earn more than me.


 
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Dr_Grip

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There has been no scientific evidence that there is such a thing as psychological gender, if some come up I will change my mind on it.
Well, I could point you to the works of, say, Judith Butler, but I guess that'd lead to us debating what is science and what isn't...

- - - Updated - - -

Well then it's my time to pity you. Enjoy the tippy-toeing around every single issue ever, lest you say something wrong and she gets triggered.
[...]
To add to the completely moronic notion that I don't get feminism because I...[...]
Well, the prejudice-laden comment above tells me that you certainly don't know a lot about feminists. In fact, the only "tiptoeing around" issue I face is buying another project car, and that's a "trigger" most blokes on this forum know about :p
 
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mpicco

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Well, the prejudice-laden comment above tells me that you certainly don't know a lot about feminists. In fact, the only "tiptoeing around" issue I face is buying another project car, and that's a "trigger" most blokes on this forum know about :p
I know their movement is pretty much spearheaded these days by rambling, very loud lunatics who have hijacked the term and are probably doing more damage than good.
 

LeVeL

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But to accept that these are not a homogenous group and not all of them are crazy or idiots obviously is beyond you (or at least that's the schtick you use for "arguing" your point).
I would like for you to accept that not all right-wingers are nuts; not all Trump supporters are racist/xenophobic/etc; not all gun owners that oppose nonsensical laws are domestic terrorists; should I keep going?


A more provocative point - just like with fear of and hatred against immigrants, hate against feminists (and women in general) seems to be strongest among people with litte exposure to them (a correlation between little to no immigrant/refugee population and xenophobic sentiment has been long proven statistically).
I have not heard of anyone expressing hate against immigrants. I have, however, come across plenty of people wishing that immigrants obtain legal status and, you know, followed the laws. I would know - I'm an immigrant :)


Yeah between my wife who has two advanced degrees, works as a medical professional (not a nurse before you ask) in a generally male dominated specialty (urology). My mother who has multiple post graduate degrees (not in gender studies), my mother in law who has an MD a Masters and a bachelor in nursing, a grandma who was a physics professor. I'm really not exposed to strong independent women at all....
I think it all stems from that one BS study that claimed that women make less money than men. It completely ignored numerous factors, such as (iirc) identical levels of education and experience. They basically just averaged all salaries among men and women and compared the two means.


Feminism is a beautiful thing when it deals with equality between genders (there are only two sorry Qs) it stops being such when it used to strong arm one gender to bend to the will of another. It's as wrong for women as it is for men.
This!


Where do you see this lack of equality?
I don't know. President of my company is female, as is one of the two VPs. My girlfriend is a doctor and my mom is an engineer.


...I for one am struggling to think of any power I have as a man.
Being able to reach the top shelf is clearly misogynistic.


Where is the inequality at work? I work in an IT firm yet my PM (basically my boss as she assigns tasks to me) is a woman, a crap ton of our Java developers are women and my company is far from hugely progressive.
There may very well be inequality in fields that require physical strength (guess what, men and women are not identical). In any intellectual field though, I see equality.


Everything else is a job for a mental health professional
:nod:


The whole idea of a separation between sex and gender is to uncouple psychological gender and physical sex. That's not even third-wave feminism.

Where's the harm in calling people the way they want to be called?
Are you okay with someone identifying as a cat? How about someone who identifies as a different age? How about someone who identifies as an entirely different person?
 

prizrak

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I think it all stems from that one BS study that claimed that women make less money than men. It completely ignored numerous factors, such as (iirc) identical levels of education and experience. They basically just averaged all salaries among men and women and compared the two means.
It ignored a lot of things, it didn't take into account how many hours were being worked, types of jobs (not many female roofers for example), dropping out of workforce for child rearing (more common for women than men), etc....

Being able to reach the top shelf is clearly misogynistic.
My wife is 5'7" and knows how to use a step ladder ;) (I also work with a couple of women who are 6' tall)


There may very well be inequality in fields that require physical strength (guess what, men and women are not identical).
I would actually even argue that one, men and other men are not the same, I know many men stronger than myself who would be much better suited to physical work than I would be
 

LeVeL

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I would actually even argue that one, men and other men are not the same, I know many men stronger than myself who would be much better suited to physical work than I would be
There are, of course, exceptions - I'm sure there are some women who are stronger than me. However, overall men are stronger than women.
 

Dr_Grip

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I would like for you to accept that not all right-wingers are nuts; not all Trump supporters are racist/xenophobic/etc; not all gun owners that oppose nonsensical laws are domestic terrorists; should I keep going?
In my last post in this thread, I will concede that not all right-wingers are nuts (but this does not mean they are not misguided), that not all Trump supporters are racist/xenophobic/etc (even if one has to tolerate being in the same camp with those to support Trump) and that there is no correlation between gun ownership and terrorism (even though there are good reasons to believe that a society with less guns is a less violent society, without any terrorism angle).
 
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prizrak

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There are, of course, exceptions - I'm sure there are some women who are stronger than me. However, overall men are stronger than women.
Right but I'm saying that it's barely an inequality, since there are plenty of individual differences even within genders.
 

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I have not heard of anyone expressing hate against immigrants. I have, however, come across plenty of people wishing that immigrants obtain legal status and, you know, followed the laws. I would know - I'm an immigrant :)
There you go again...As I have explained in the past, the problem with current immigration law is that it does not treat people equally. To give you a specific example, that is not even about people who want to move here permanently. If a German woman decides that she wants to go see Hamilton in NYC next month, all she has to do is buy a plane ticket, pass a brief passport check, enjoy the show, and fly back. If a Chinese woman, with the same economic background and same education status, even with the same career as the German woman, wants to go see Hamilton in NYC next month...she can't. She has to go apply for a visa several months in advance (in China it could be up to a year). Go to an interview and be asked to present all kinds of financial records and proof of employment (that the German woman didn't have to), then book a flight, go to passport control, where she will be asked a lot more questions, and if she successfully goes through all the hurdles, then she can go watch Hamilton.

Laws? Why is the German woman treated differently than the Chinese woman?

Just because you are an immigrant doesn't mean you understand immigration law and how it affects different people based on their race and nationality.
 

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It seems like I stand near Prizrak and mpicco on this issue.

My family has been lead by women for as many generations as I can recollect, and it's basically built on a matriarchal template (four biological aunts, no biological uncles), and I've had women as bosses way more than the other way around.

I have friends from all the spectrum of sexuals identifications (hlgbt) and I have no problem at all with other people's -true- inclinations; this doesn't make the other person any different to me.

Yet, I've had my fair amount of what I can't call other than man-hating; I've heard a woman saying that all men should be enslaved and maybe castrated, and she meant it, and the people listening were laughing. I got goose-bumps: You know when women get uncomfortable in front of men laughing hard at violent raping jokes? The same. I won't count the times I've seen hetero women belittling men because they felt better than them, most of the times without even realizing it.

So I understand perfectly well why Americans (which do have more problems than my country has with this issue) talk about SJW or Feminazi. It's the identification of a phenomenon.

Also, societies are very variable in terms of how they treat women or men; generalization should be avoided in all cases, always. For example, if you told -me- I am a privileged white man, I would look you and tell you that you have no idea what my life is and no right to judge it.

Also, two: Those n+1 genders are a joke in themselves, so much so that a right-wing german politician managed to make a truly great ironic intervention (a german politician using irony to its best? Come on, that's a black pearl!) by just naming them all.

There is a differencitation between the body, the heart and the mind.
 

LeVeL

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There you go again...As I have explained in the past, the problem with current immigration law is that it does not treat people equally. To give you a specific example, that is not even about people who want to move here permanently. If a German woman decides that she wants to go see Hamilton in NYC next month, all she has to do is buy a plane ticket, pass a brief passport check, enjoy the show, and fly back. If a Chinese woman, with the same economic background and same education status, even with the same career as the German woman, wants to go see Hamilton in NYC next month...she can't. She has to go apply for a visa several months in advance (in China it could be up to a year). Go to an interview and be asked to present all kinds of financial records and proof of employment (that the German woman didn't have to), then book a flight, go to passport control, where she will be asked a lot more questions, and if she successfully goes through all the hurdles, then she can go watch Hamilton.

Laws? Why is the German woman treated differently than the Chinese woman?

Just because you are an immigrant doesn't mean you understand immigration law and how it affects different people based on their race and nationality.
Guess what, countries are different, as are the people in them, as are the deals we make with them. That's sort of what Trump's desire to limit immigration from countries with major terrorist hubs stems from. And don't forget, I'm from a country like China, in your example - takes ages and tons of checks (including health) to legally enter the US. Meanwhile, some people are able to skip any and all checks and enter the country under the cover of darkness without anyone ever knowing. It seems that you're okay with that, which leads me to conclude that you're discriminating against immigrants such as myself based purely in geography.
 

Interrobang

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[...] Also, societies are very variable in terms of how they treat women or men; generalization should be avoided in all cases, always. For example, if you told -me- I am a privileged white man, I would look you and tell you that you have no idea what my life is and no right to judge it.
Discussions about Privilege are also painful too me as they are missing that exact point. There is privilege in general and I acknowledge that. There is discrimination everywhere based on lack of it. No question about that. But the privilege that someone may (theoretically) have, is outweighed a couple of times by the reality of the life that he or she leads. Talking about one groups privilege or lack of it - is looking past the individual. And we should always see the individual in front of us first. Not the persons race, gender or even privilege - but the person itself.

[...]Also, two: Those n+1 genders are a joke in themselves, so much so that a right-wing german politician managed to make a truly great ironic intervention (a german politician using irony to its best? Come on, that's a black pearl!) by just naming them all.
Even though I am repeating myself: This is fiction. It has nothing to do with what politicians are actually proposing and trying to do.
 
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