Cash for Clunkers lives on: Senate passes $2B refill of popular program

tigger

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I mean technically speaking you could "flip" the cars. Trade in your clunker, buy a new car and then sell it. I don't see anywhere where it says that you must keep the car for a certain period of time. (correct me if I' providing on top of the 3500-4500, it could be worthwhile correct me if i'm wrong)
You have to be able to prove you've owned the "clunker" for a year. That's pretty well 'set in stone' it seems.
 

British_Rover

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Yup.

Let's use the example maxtor just proposed: A Hyundai Accent that you somehow got out the door with for a total of $4,495. And that you somehow didn't have to pay taxes, fees, or anything else.

Using that $4,495 amount as the base amount for a 5 year car loan at 8% interest, that makes the monthly payment $91.14.

First off an 8% rate on a 60 month loan is well above the average. The average rate right now for a new car is around 6.9 and low rates without any special rates from the factory are around 4.9. At 6.9 we are talking bout $88.80 and at 4.9 $84.62 This also ignores that a third of the people doing C4C deals for us are cash buyers. These are cash deals where the car is 20,000 plus after the C4C deal. If we were selling 5,000 dollar accents there would be a lot more cash deals.

Taking sonza's Lincoln as the example 'clunker' here and using the EPA estimated fuel economy, here's how the numbers work out.

Annual cost of Lincoln, $0 (already paid off)
Annual cost of Lincoln's fuel, assuming it gets the EPA calculated 18mpg combined and you drive the average 15K per year - plus that gas goes up to $5 per gallon (worst case scenario): $4166.67
Total annual base cost: $4166.67
Does the Lincoln really get 18 mpg anymore though? Oh and you left the insurance cost out for the Lincoln which is at least a 100 dollars a year maybe more depending on the state for liability only. You also left out repair and maintenance costs for the Lincoln. How much is a worn out 15 year old Lincoln costing in repairs and maintenance a year? The Accent is under warranty for five years 60,000 miles bumper to bumper and 10 year 100,000 powertrain. Plus the annual maintenance for a new car that really only needs oil changes for the first three years or four years is much less then the old heavy Lincoln. A 1,000 bucks a year sound fair? Some years will be higher and some lower but you gotta figure a 1,000 minimum.

Annual cost of Accent, $1093.68
Annual cost of Accent's fuel, assuming it gets the EPA calculated 29mpg combined and you drive the average 15K per year - plus that gas goes up to $5 per gallon (worst case scenario): $2500
Total annual base cost: $3593.68
Now, add to that the insurance upcharge for full coverage on a yearly basis (about $500/year average) which the bank will require since you haven't paid the thing off yet, and you're at $4093.68.

$4166.67 - $4093.68 = $72.99.

$5,266 - $4,708 = 558 That sounds like a much more meaningful number. Would be even more significant if the Lincoln or whatever other car had additional major repairs coming up. Maybe the brakes were about shot so a few hundred there and it needed tires so a few hundred more. That old engine probably burns oil too so there is an additional expense.

Why would you bother trading it in for a mere $73/year savings? Said savings would be wiped out in Texas by the taxes and fees you had to pay.
 
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EyeMWing

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Right now, my Focus gets 19MPG. In order to bring it back to EPA spec, I'd be looking at spending more than the car's worth. Why the hell am I not eligible? Not that I'd take advantage of it anyway, my next car is going to be quite decidedly not new.
 

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I already knew the NYT was full of and run by fools. :p
 

lv2xlr8

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You have to be able to prove you've owned the "clunker" for a year. That's pretty well 'set in stone' it seems.
Not the clunker, I'm talking about flipping the car you purchased with the clunker credit.
 

JCE

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Yup.

Let's use the example maxtor just proposed: A Hyundai Accent that you somehow got out the door with for a total of $4,495. And that you somehow didn't have to pay taxes, fees, or anything else.

Using that $4,495 amount as the base amount for a 5 year car loan at 8% interest, that makes the monthly payment $91.14.

Taking sonza's Lincoln as the example 'clunker' here and using the EPA estimated fuel economy, here's how the numbers work out.

Annual cost of Lincoln, $0 (already paid off)
Annual cost of Lincoln's fuel, assuming it gets the EPA calculated 18mpg combined and you drive the average 15K per year - plus that gas goes up to $5 per gallon (worst case scenario): $4166.67
Total annual base cost: $4166.67


Annual cost of Accent, $1093.68
Annual cost of Accent's fuel, assuming it gets the EPA calculated 18mpg combined and you drive the average 15K per year - plus that gas goes up to $5 per gallon (worst case scenario): $2500
Total annual base cost: $3593.68
Now, add to that the insurance upcharge for full coverage on a yearly basis (about $500/year average) which the bank will require since you haven't paid the thing off yet, and you're at $4093.68.

$4166.67 - $4093.68 = $72.99.

Why would you bother trading it in for a mere $73/year savings? Said savings would be wiped out in Texas by the taxes and fees you had to pay.
Quote correct. And we'll also assume the Lincoln in this case was owned either previously or currently by an older person which automatically means it is in good running order since Ford Modular V8's are almost bulletproof. There won't be any additional expense for maintenance that the Hyundai/Kia won't have in the same amount of time.

I wish it wasn't limited to gas guzzlers though. My mom could seriously use this but the PT gets up to 28 MPG :(
I've never seen a real world 28mpg in the PT Loser. That car is an abomination, you'll barely get 20mpg out of that thing. But, I do not want any car to be destroyed using this stupid cash 4 clunkers program which is nothing but a left-wing money sucking bullshit program designed to waste MORE of MY HARD EARNED tax dollars to the auto industry.

BritishRover said:
First off an 8% rate on a 60 month loan is well above the average. The average rate right now for a new car is around 6.9 and low rates without any special rates from the factory are around 4.9. At 6.9 we are talking bout $88.80 and at 4.9 $84.62 This also ignores that a third of the people doing C4C deals for us are cash buyers. These are cash deals where the car is 20,000 plus after the C4C deal. If we were selling 5,000 dollar accents there would be a lot more cash deals.

Does the Lincoln really get 18 mpg anymore though? Oh and you left the insurance cost out for the Lincoln which is at least a 100 dollars a year maybe more depending on the state for liability only. You also left out repair and maintenance costs for the Lincoln. How much is a worn out 15 year old Lincoln costing in repairs and maintenance a year? The Accent is under warranty for five years 60,000 miles bumper to bumper and 10 year 100,000 powertrain. Plus the annual maintenance for a new car that really only needs oil changes for the first three years or four years is much less then the old heavy Lincoln. A 1,000 bucks a year sound fair? Some years will be higher and some lower but you gotta figure a 1,000 minimum.

$5,266 - $4,708 = 558 That sounds like a much more meaningful number. Would be even more significant if the Lincoln or whatever other car had additional major repairs coming up. Maybe the brakes were about shot so a few hundred there and it needed tires so a few hundred more. That old engine probably burns oil too so there is an additional expense.
Actually no. Having worked at more than 1 car dealership as a new car sales person I actually have REAL WORLD experience in this field and 8% APR is about the average for new car loans from most lenders. To get anything 6.9% or less you need TIER ONE credit which is a 720+ beacon score (and really you need 750+). The average credit score is slightly below 720 for the three dealerships that I worked at.

Secondly you are way off on the insurance for the Lincoln too. The Towncar has a symbol rating of 10-13 which is LESS than the Hyundai/Kia by 2-4 points depending on the model/trim/engine size. And something you neglected is you only need Liability in most states for vehicles you own outright with no lien on it--in this case the Lincoln. You need FULL COVERAGE on that Hyundai/Kia (or whatever new car) which automatically doubles, triples or quadruples the insurance cost per year depending on the driver's driving record.

The following are quotes for me when I was looking at new cars with a clean driving record and being $28 years old.

12 month premium for a Lincoln Towncar:
$40.00 per month
x 12 months
--------------
$480/yr

12 month premium for a Hyundai Accent:
$85.00 per month
x 12 months
--------------
$1,020/yr

$1,020
- $480
--------
$540 more you'll pay for the Hyundai per year on insurance alone

So even if you replace the entire brake system in that Towncar @ $500 you'll still be out ahead. Plus this doesn't even take into account if you decide to get another vehicle which insurance and car payment will be really high.

Lets say you own a 1999 Ford Crown Victoria. You pay $40/mo for insurance ($480/yr) and the vehicle gets a combined average of 17mpg. 20 gallons of gas times $3.00 per gallon cost equals $60 per fillup. Lets say you drive 15,000 miles per year you'll spend $2,647 per year on fuel. And your 2010 Ford Focus gets 28mpg combined. And with a 13.5 gallon tank that is 40.5 gallons per fillup and $1,607 per year on fuel. Plus the cost of the Focus, which is $15,995 for the MSRP minus $4,500 for the C4C credit which equals $11,495.

Insurance.

1999 Ford Crown Victoria with symbol rating of 11:
$40.00 per month liability
x 12 months
--------------
$480/yr

2010 Ford Focus S Sedan auto with symbol of 15:
$100 per month full coverage
x 12 months
--------------
$1,200/yr

$1,200
- $480
---------
$720/yr

1999 Crown Vic is paid for.
$0 per month
x 12 months
--------------
$0/yr

2010 Ford Focus S Sedan auto
$15,495 MSRP
- $4,500 C4C credit
----------
$11,495

2010 Focus payments broken down monthly with a reasonable 6.9% APR + $1,000 down payment extra.

$11,495
- $1,000
----------
$10,495

$10,495 with an APR of 6.9% @ 48 months (4yr which is the average loan time for purchase) you are going to have a monthly payment of $250.83.

Now lets break down the yearly cost of the Crown Vic and 2010 Focus.

Yearly & monthly cost of the 1999 Ford Crown Victoria with some routine maintenace done at a service center paying the high labor cost by not doing it yourself:

$0 car payments
+ $480 insurance
+ $500 brakes
+ $200 radiator
+ $120 waterpump/thermostat
+ $150 belts
+ $400 tires
--------------
$1,850/yr

$1,850
/ 12 months
--------------
$154.17/mo

Yearly & monthly cost of 2010 Ford Focus S Sedan automatic:

$3,009.96 car payments
+ $1,200 insurance
-----------
$4,209.96/yr

$4,209.96
/ 12 months
--------------
$350.83/mo

$350.83 Focus monthly
- $154.17 Crown Vic monthly
------------
$196.66/mo

You save almost $200 per month by not trading your Crown Vic in. Plus I'm not even being pedantic by including the cost of the energy of the factory producing the Focus and its impact on the enviornment (using coal power plants). :D
 
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British_Rover

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Actually no. Having worked at more than 1 car dealership as a new car sales person I actually have REAL WORLD experience in this field and 8% APR is about the average for new car loans from most lenders. To get anything 6.9% or less you need TIER ONE credit which is a 720+ beacon score (and really you need 750+). The average credit score is slightly below 720 for the three dealerships that I worked at.

^^^ Ummmm you are completely wrong about new car rates. I have been in the auto business for over 13 years and on the sales side for nearly 5 years. Before I was in sales I ran a repair shop. I have sold hundreds of cars both new and used over the past five years probably getting pretty close to a 1,000 by now. Even with the tightened credit market over the past year you can easily get well under 6.9 with tier one credit. You don't even need to go to a credit union to do it. The buy rate for tier one credit for most of our lenders is in the low four range as long as the loan to value range is proper with a good down payment. A 4,500 dollar C4C credit is plenty of down payment on an average price new car. I sell Land Rovers, Volvos, Saabs new along with the occasional Dodge/Chrysler VW and Subaru. Plus we are one of the largest pre-owned dealers in the area. Our Volvo dealership is the seventh largest Certified Pre-owned dealership in the country. I think I know what I am talking about.

Maybe you only ever saw the 8 percent rates because you never saw the buy rates and your F&I guy was always bumping rates by two points.

When I am working a deal on a new car 6.9 is the average rate we start with unless the person has already told us they have poor credit.

60 months is a pretty standard term for most new car loans not 48 months. Sure people go 48 months or less but most people go 60 months.

Why don't you go and actually look at the rates Chase, US Bank and others are advertising.

https://www.chase.com/index.jsp?pg_name=ccpmapp/caf/home/page/auto_rates

5.0-5.9 for Chase

http://www.usbank.com/cgi_w/cfm/personal/products_and_services/loans_and_credit_lines/loan_dtls.cfm?t=a
3.9-5.9 for US Bank

http://www.connexcu.org/home/about/rates
One of the Credit unions I work with is doing 5.0 for new cars as long as you have 10 percent down.


http://www.comtrustfcu.com/new.htm

Another credit union in the area is doing 3.99 new car rates.

No one is ever going to pay MSRP for a Focus what are you smoking. There are always rebates on most Fords and the Focus is no exception. Figure 500 dollars to 1,000 dollars in rebates and a few hundred behind invoice on any in stock car.

Does the Lincoln really get 18 mpg anymore though? Oh and you left the insurance cost out for the Lincoln which is at least a 100 dollars a year maybe more depending on the state for liability only.
I also said liability only you just ignored it.

Not my fault you have a crappy insurance company either. I am only a couple years older then you and full coverage on my jeep, plus my homeowners insurance is only 150 bucks a month. And that is in CT with much, much higher property values and insurance rates.
 
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Ezbok58a

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Not for nothing B_R...but you're a car salesmen...

I hold very few car salesmen (or salesmen in general) in high reguard or as a someone with a highly valued opinion.

To you it's all about the sale and the comission you'll get.

For the rest of us who aren't scum sucking bottom feeders, we're out to make sure you're kept where you belong and that the deals benefit us.

(I've had the 'buyer from Florida' stunt pulled on me 3 times...and it failed all 3...)

I'd much rather keep my 10 year old car if it's mechanically sound/damned near bulletproof then dump it off for a new more fuel efficient model 'just because' the gov's giving me a 4500 head start. No way.
 

katwalk

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I've never seen a real world 28mpg in the PT Loser. That car is an abomination, you'll barely get 20mpg out of that thing. But, I do not want any car to be destroyed using this stupid cash 4 clunkers program which is nothing but a left-wing money sucking bullshit program designed to waste MORE of MY HARD EARNED tax dollars to the auto industry.
That IS the real world mileage not estimated one. My mother bothered to keep track and do the math and that is what she gets on the highway even at above speed limit speeds.
 

Dogbert

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You save almost $200 per month by not trading your Crown Vic in. Plus I'm not even being pedantic by including the cost of the energy of the factory producing the Focus and its impact on the enviornment (using coal power plants). :D
Yeah, but when you factor in the monthly fuel costs (which it seems you neglected to do), that whittles the number down to only $110/month more to own a Focus.

And if you take into account the sense that British_Rover is talking, and not pay MSRP... lets say after C4C and a $1k down payment, you look at a $9,500 loan... you save $23.78/month off the old loan, which brings that $110 down to only $86.22/month more... to own a new car... and not a Crown Victoria.
 

lv2xlr8

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Not for nothing B_R...but you're a car salesmen...

I hold very few car salesmen (or salesmen in general) in high reguard or as a someone with a highly valued opinion.

To you it's all about the sale and the comission you'll get.


For the rest of us who aren't scum sucking bottom feeders, we're out to make sure you're kept where you belong and that the deals benefit us.
:rolleyes:

Blanket statements FTL
 

British_Rover

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Quote correct. And we'll also assume the Lincoln in this case was owned either previously or currently by an older person which automatically means it is in good running order since Ford Modular V8's are almost bulletproof. There won't be any additional expense for maintenance that the Hyundai/Kia won't have in the same amount of time.



I've never seen a real world 28mpg in the PT Loser. That car is an abomination, you'll barely get 20mpg out of that thing. But, I do not want any car to be destroyed using this stupid cash 4 clunkers program which is nothing but a left-wing money sucking bullshit program designed to waste MORE of MY HARD EARNED tax dollars to the auto industry.
So we just assume an older person has taken better care of their car? Sure sometimes they do but sometimes they only change the oil once every couple of years. Oh and that straight 30 monograde oil was just fine for their 62 BelAir so it will be just fine in a modern OHC engine with tighter tolerances.
:rolleyes:

I saw more then my share of that when I had my shop and some of these people you could absolutely not talk out of it no matter what.

As to the PT Cruiser I have never understood why people hate on that car so much. It gets ok gas mileage, holds a lot of stuff and are usually fairly reliable.

They don't handle that well but they weren't really meant to.



According to the 2007 EPA figures the non-turbo manual trans PT Cruiser got 29 highway. I have been able to beat those 2007 figures by about 10 percent on every car I have ever driven so do believe 28 mpg on the highway is easy to do. I guess if you drove in the city constantly and flogged the hell out of a PT Cruiser you could keep it at 20 mpg the whole time but you would have to drive like a total moron.

Not for nothing B_R...but you're a car salesmen...

I hold very few car salesmen (or salesmen in general) in high reguard or as a someone with a highly valued opinion.

To you it's all about the sale and the comission you'll get.

For the rest of us who aren't scum sucking bottom feeders, we're out to make sure you're kept where you belong and that the deals benefit us.

(I've had the 'buyer from Florida' stunt pulled on me 3 times...and it failed all 3...)

I'd much rather keep my 10 year old car if it's mechanically sound/damned near bulletproof then dump it off for a new more fuel efficient model 'just because' the gov's giving me a 4500 head start. No way.
Good to see you fall back on maligning myself and my entire profession as well as all related professions when you have no other legitimate argument.

The company I work for has been in business for 87 years owned by the same family. We have one of the oldest Volvo and oldest Saab franchises in the country. We take care of our customers. We couldn't have survived this long if we didn't.


I don't want to just sell the customer in front of me a car. I want him/her to leave happy so they refer their friends to me. I do a ton of repeat and referral business and that is how you make the real money in this business. The sales people who only look at the deal in front of them don't make it very long. I have sold people cars and then sold the rest of their family cars and their friends and their family. We have been in business so long we have sold generation after generation of families cars.

There is a farm on the other side of the river behind our dealership that has been in the same family for generations. They have been in business even longer then we have and they have a flatbed, Chevy I think, truck that we sold them new in 1933 or 1932. The owner of the farm still talks about that truck. He bought a convertible from us last year and we have had a great business relationship with their family for many years and will continue to. They still use it all the time. When I drive past that farm stand with customers and it is out front I point it out to them.

People want to know that you have been there before and will be there for them in the future. A vehicle that is coming up on 80 years old that we sold new and still used by the original owner is a great way to show that.

If all I really cared about was the commission I would hate C4C because people that would normally buy used cars are buying new cars. I only get a flat commission for new cars, unless it is a Land Rover, so between 125 and 300 dollars depending on what kind of new car and what volume level I am at. Now for used cars I get 20% of the gross and the bonus levels for volume have a lot more money tied to them.

I could sell 15 used cars in a month and make 5,000 to 6,000 dollars depending on what I average on the grosses. If I sold 15 new cars I would make about half that.

Over the past couple of months I have swapped four people who were looking at used cars into new cars because the new cars were better deals. Volvo has so much money on XC70s right now that if you have owner loyalty you can be within 2,000-3000 dollars of a used 2008. The 2009 will have more standard features and a better warranty as Volvo is doing a five year 60,000 mile warranty on all 2009s right now. That warranty also covers all maintenance and wear and tear items but tires. Brake pads are covered, oil changes are covered, brake rotors are covered and even wiper blades. The only thing you need to pay for are the tires if you run through them in 60,000 miles.

I guess JCE isn't a scum sucking bottom feeders because he agrees with you even if does claim to be in sales.

If you hate most salespeople so much then I guess you aren't a big fan of capitalism. If you are in business to make something and make a profit then you need someone to sell those products and/or services. Just about every business in the world has people who work in sales to sell their products. Our Capitalistic society would collapse if we didn't have people to sell the stuff.

You can design and build the best widget in the world but if people don't know about its features and benefits then they won't buy it. You need salespeople for that.




That IS the real world mileage not estimated one. My mother bothered to keep track and do the math and that is what she gets on the highway even at above speed limit speeds.
Yup I have no doubt that would be about the highway mileage of an automatic PT Cruiser driven by a normal driver. Under the right conditions with minimal AC use I am sure she could break 30 mpg.

:rolleyes:

Blanket statements FTL
Yes they are but they tend to show a person's true colors.
 

thedguy

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Yeah, but when you factor in the monthly fuel costs (which it seems you neglected to do), that whittles the number down to only $110/month more to own a Focus.

And if you take into account the sense that British_Rover is talking, and not pay MSRP... lets say after C4C and a $1k down payment, you look at a $9,500 loan... you save $23.78/month off the old loan, which brings that $110 down to only $86.22/month more... to own a new car... and not a Crown Victoria.
Why would you make a down payment on a car? And putting $1k down may change the monthly payment but it's just shifting money around. It's the kind of shit a good (and dishonest IMO) car salesmen does.
 
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Dogbert

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Why would you make a down payment on a car? And putting $1k down may change the monthly payment but it's just shifting money around. It's the kind of shit a good (and dishonest IMO) car salesmen does.
In that specific example, it saves me $147.20 in the end... it's almost a negligible amount in the grand scheme, but in college terms, that's almost three weeks worth of food. It would be even more if it were a 5 year, and not 4.

If I have $1k to comfortably put toward a car, why not?
 

thedguy

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In that specific example, it saves me $147.20 in the end... it's almost a negligible amount in the grand scheme, but in college terms, that's almost three weeks worth of food. It would be even more if it were a 5 year, and not 4.

If I have $1k to comfortably put toward a car, why not?
$1k can buy me a perfectly good car and no payments... :p
 

British_Rover

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Why would you make a down payment on a car? And putting $1k down may change the monthly payment but it's just shifting money around. It's the kind of shit a good (and dishonest IMO) car salesmen does.


Most banks won't finance a car anymore unless you put some money down. That is one reason the C4C money was put at 3,500 and 4,500 dollars as for an average price car 20 percent down will keep you from ever being upside down on a car. You put 20 percent down on a car and the bank is happy and will give you a good rate.

You also pay less interest if you put money down at the front vs. just paying a monthly payment.

Now putting a down payment on a lease is a different situation. You should never put anything but the first months payment and whatever your registration and bank fees are. Unfortunately leasing is so screwed up right now that most leasing companies won't approve the lease without some cap cost reduction.
 

Ezbok58a

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:rolleyes:

Blanket statements FTL


Not very good at picking up sarcasm are we? :lol: Yes I wouldn't say something that's a obvious stretch after I've had what I'd consider fairly good debates with British Rover in the past C4C thread.

Good to see you fall back on maligning myself and my entire profession as well as all related professions when you have no other legitimate argument.
No sense of humor? Tounge in cheek? Well you're a salesmen, you have no soul :lol: (That's a joke for those of you with no sense of humor)

The company I work for has been in business for 87 years owned by the same family. We have one of the oldest Volvo and oldest Saab franchises in the country. We take care of our customers. We couldn't have survived this long if we didn't.
Then you shouldn't have taken what I said here seriously, They've obviously been doing something right to be in business for as long as they've been. So I would expect they'd have a top notch staff that doesn't screw around. There's always a few bad apples in the bunch. (I did get the 'buyer in florida' thing a couple of times at dealerships I didn't usually deal with.)


I don't want to just sell the customer in front of me a car. I want him/her to leave happy so they refer their friends to me. I do a ton of repeat and referral business and that is how you make the real money in this business. The sales people who only look at the deal in front of them don't make it very long. I have sold people cars and then sold the rest of their family cars and their friends and their family. We have been in business so long we have sold generation after generation of families cars.

There is a farm on the other side of the river behind our dealership that has been in the same family for generations. They have been in business even longer then we have and they have a flatbed, Chevy I think, truck that we sold them new in 1933 or 1932. The owner of the farm still talks about that truck. He bought a convertible from us last year and we have had a great business relationship with their family for many years and will continue to. They still use it all the time. When I drive past that farm stand with customers and it is out front I point it out to them.

People want to know that you have been there before and will be there for them in the future. A vehicle that is coming up on 80 years old that we sold new and still used by the original owner is a great way to show that.
Unfortunately by me, dealers like that are still hidden amongst several other dealers who are nothing but actual 'scum sucking bottom feeders'. Thankfully most of the dealers who do try to screw their customers are on the brink of going bye-bye. As they rightfully deserve for being assholes.

If all I really cared about was the commission I would hate C4C because people that would normally buy used cars are buying new cars. I only get a flat commission for new cars, unless it is a Land Rover, so between 125 and 300 dollars depending on what kind of new car and what volume level I am at. Now for used cars I get 20% of the gross and the bonus levels for volume have a lot more money tied to them.

I could sell 15 used cars in a month and make 5,000 to 6,000 dollars depending on what I average on the grosses. If I sold 15 new cars I would make about half that.

Over the past couple of months I have swapped four people who were looking at used cars into new cars because the new cars were better deals. Volvo has so much money on XC70s right now that if you have owner loyalty you can be within 2,000-3000 dollars of a used 2008. The 2009 will have more standard features and a better warranty as Volvo is doing a five year 60,000 mile warranty on all 2009s right now. That warranty also covers all maintenance and wear and tear items but tires. Brake pads are covered, oil changes are covered, brake rotors are covered and even wiper blades. The only thing you need to pay for are the tires if you run through them in 60,000 miles.

I guess JCE isn't a scum sucking bottom feeders because he agrees with you even if does claim to be in sales.

If you hate most salespeople so much then I guess you aren't a big fan of capitalism. If you are in business to make something and make a profit then you need someone to sell those products and/or services. Just about every business in the world has people who work in sales to sell their products. Our Capitalistic society would collapse if we didn't have people to sell the stuff.

You can design and build the best widget in the world but if people don't know about its features and benefits then they won't buy it. You need salespeople for that.

Yes they are but they tend to show a person's true colors.
A few bad apples spoil the bunch, but I'm not really stupid enough to say all salesmen are outright assholes with a straight face. Because it's a outright lie.

That said you've been sounding really 'salesmen-y' in both threads...:mrgreen::lol:
 
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