Cash for Clunkers lives on: Senate passes $2B refill of popular program

lv2xlr8

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For the last time, sarcasm doesn't work on the internet! :lol: Put some sarcasm tags.
 

Ezbok58a

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^In all honesty I thought you were serious as well and I usually give the benefit of the doubt over the internet
I was figuring the 'scum sucking bottom feeder' line would've tipped it off I was being sarcastic, Especially since I stole that line from a joke comparing lawyers to Catfish...

Guess it wasn't a very popular joke. My fault...
 

GRtak

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Treehugers agree with us!?!?!?:blink:

Proof that "Greenies" aren't all bad.


http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/car-swap-terrific-waste-of-money.php

Car Scrap Scheme Terrific Waste of Money and Resources

In January when the German government quickly implemented a car scrap scheme that pays motorists 2,500 euros ($3,328) to trash cars more than nine years old and buy new ones, other governments were full of praise - France and Italy followed, and the US, UK and now Spain have similar plans. But has this anti-recession measure done any good?

Cash for clunker an expensive proposition
In the very short term, yes. Car sales shot up 40% for the first quarter, but now overall retail sales in Germany are falling. That jolt to the economy may also cost the German government up to 5 billion Euros, while next year an auto buying slump is expected since prospective buyers already bought. Five billion euros could certainly buy a lot of bike, pedestrian and public transport improvements.

Perhaps most egregiously, still-good cars are being scrapped at an alarming rate (the law specifies the cars must be scrapped and not resold) while scrap metal prices have plunged. Here's the kicker: estimates say 3 of 4 new car buyers would have bought anyway. Now, what was the good side?

Scrapped is just another way to say "trashed"
Yes, cars are highly recyclable - in the U.S. the latest figures are that 84 percent (by weight) of a car is recycled, and 95 percent of cars go through the recycling process. End-of-life vehicles are our most recycled consumer product. But wait.

According to the UK's Environmental Transport Association, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development found that

?these schemes have a high average cost per ton of pollution avoided, and do not compare favourably with other alternative policy tools on purely environmental grounds.?

In fact, in a column, George Monbiot quotes a 2000 study from the journal Transportation Research that shows that while local pollutants (such as NOx and CO) may decline when scrapping is introduced; production and subsequently life cycle energy use and CO2 increase.

As the ETA itself says:


?Car scrapping schemes are good for boosting new car sales ? they have very little to do with the environment and to suggest otherwise is not just greenwash, it is hogwash.?

Specifically in Germany's scheme, someone could trade in a Volkswagen Lupo that creates 81 grams of CO2 per kilometer, and buy a 2009 Porsche Cayenne that makes 358 grams of CO2 per kilometer.
The article goes on for a bit, but you get the point.


And below is another article that has a funny pic.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/08/thieves-cash-clunkers-germany.php

And another article that really cuts to the point.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/06/cash-for-clunkers-passes.php

[So if the bill's not exactly green, will it achieve it's other, and, let's be honest here, primary goal; which is of course to bolster sales for the dreadfully slumping auto industry? Again, many think no.

Maybe those Greenies aren't so bad.
 

British_Rover

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Not very good at picking up sarcasm are we? :lol: Yes I wouldn't say something that's a obvious stretch after I've had what I'd consider fairly good debates with British Rover in the past C4C thread.



No sense of humor? Tounge in cheek? Well you're a salesmen, you have no soul :lol: (That's a joke for those of you with no sense of humor)
Sarcasm or did you realize you stepped over the line and are now trying to cover? I don't know and I don't really care just an observation.

Then you shouldn't have taken what I said here seriously, They've obviously been doing something right to be in business for as long as they've been. So I would expect they'd have a top notch staff that doesn't screw around. There's always a few bad apples in the bunch. (I did get the 'buyer in florida' thing a couple of times at dealerships I didn't usually deal with.)




Unfortunately by me, dealers like that are still hidden amongst several other dealers who are nothing but actual 'scum sucking bottom feeders'. Thankfully most of the dealers who do try to screw their customers are on the brink of going bye-bye. As they rightfully deserve for being assholes.



A few bad apples spoil the bunch, but I'm not really stupid enough to say all salesmen are outright assholes with a straight face. Because it's a outright lie.

That said you've been sounding really 'salesmen-y' in both threads...:mrgreen::lol:
What does sounding salesmen-y mean anyway? If it means actually taking the time to do research, look up facts, compile some statistics from my company's experience and the experience of other people I know in the business then presenting those facts in a reason point by point argument then yes I am being a salesman.


I could just pull random facts out of my ass like you , "95% of cars being traded in don't even have 100,000 miles," but then I would be wrong like you.

Right now 14 percent of the 58 clunkers we have taken in have less then 100,000 miles. The number of cash buyers has climbed to about 40 percent from 30 percent and most of the people that are financing have above average income even for CT. The average household income for CT is about 75,000 USD just so you know. They could pay cash if they wanted to but why should they if they can get interest rates of 3.9 percent or less?

The smart people save their cash when they can borrow at extremely low rates.

Talking to other people I know in the industry right now their cash buyers are above 50 percent for the most part. Not really sure why their is a significant difference except maybe some of their brands aren't offering as much special financing as some of our brands are. If you can't get under 3.9-4.9 percent then probably better off to pay cash then finance.
 

Ezbok58a

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Sarcasm or did you realize you stepped over the line and are now trying to cover? I don't know and I don't really care just an observation.

Little from column A, little from Column B... I don't hold people who are trained to lie through their teeth, and are severely mis-informed trying to get me to buy their stuff very high on my list of people I give a shit about. I was technically hired to be a car salesmen...only I decided afterward that I can't constantly lie to people just so I could make a living.



What does sounding salesmen-y mean anyway? If it means actually taking the time to do research, look up facts, compile some statistics from my company's experience and the experience of other people I know in the business then presenting those facts in a reason point by point argument then yes I am being a salesman.
No, being Salesmen-y is you trying to sell me your reputation/your stuff in such a way that will make me look like a fool if I do anything but wholeheartedly agree/or buy your stuff. The only markets by me that still are looking/hiring people are salesmen jobs. I've been to quite a few of their open houses and they just suck as people, quite honestly.


I could just pull random facts out of my ass like you , "95% of cars being traded in don't even have 100,000 miles," but then I would be wrong like you.
Except you haven't actually taken a look at what others are having traded in. Youtube is full of cars meeting their untimely deaths because of this stupid program. Hell even the vehicles I've seen with 100,000+ on the clock were vechicles that could easily do another 150,000+ before anything serious goes wrong with them.


Right now 14 percent of the 58 clunkers we have taken in have less then 100,000 miles. The number of cash buyers has climbed to about 40 percent from 30 percent and most of the people that are financing have above average income even for CT. The average household income for CT is about 75,000 USD just so you know. They could pay cash if they wanted to but why should they if they can get interest rates of 3.9 percent or less?
As opposed to a interest rate of 0 if they actually kept and maintained their existing car. Yeah going into debt just because the rate is low is a fantastic idea, what could possibly go wrong...oh wait...
 

British_Rover

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Little from column A, little from Column B... I don't hold people who are trained to lie through their teeth, and are severely mis-informed trying to get me to buy their stuff very high on my list of people I give a shit about. I was technically hired to be a car salesmen...only I decided afterward that I can't constantly lie to people just so I could make a living.
Ok so you had the bad judgment to try and work for a slimey car dealership who actually trains their sales people to lie therefore all salespeople are slimey. Good to know.


No, being Salesmen-y is you trying to sell me your reputation/your stuff in such a way that will make me look like a fool if I do anything but wholeheartedly agree/or buy your stuff. The only markets by me that still are looking/hiring people are salesmen jobs. I've been to quite a few of their open houses and they just suck as people, quite honestly.
Ok so you can impugn my reputation at will but I can't counter with examples showing how my company and myself are not sleazy without looking like a sleazy salesperson.

Got it do you want me to tie one hand behind my back too?

Except you haven't actually taken a look at what others are having traded in. Youtube is full of cars meeting their untimely deaths because of this stupid program. Hell even the vehicles I've seen with 100,000+ on the clock were vechicles that could easily do another 150,000+ before anything serious goes wrong with them.



Youtube videos are not a random sample. If you are taking videos of cars that you are clunking which vids are more likely to get the most hits?

The video of the obvious clunker smoking and falling apart before they even start the procedure or the nice looking one with no visible body damage or rust?

I know which one I would think would get the most hits. Just cause a car looks nice cosmetically on a video doesn't mean it is in good shape. I have appraised plenty of cars that looked great at first but after a more complete examination and a test drive were obviously total junk. On the flip side I have seen totally dogged out beat on cars that drove great and probably really did have 100,000 more miles in them.

Don't ever assume that just cause a car has made it 100,000ish miles it can go another 150,000 without major problems. Doing that gets you into trouble. Like I said before we rarely retail used cars that have close to 100,000 miles on them but if we have serviced the car for most of its life and it has good service history we might retail one.

Recently we sold a 2002 Saab with almost 70,000 miles on it. We had sold it new and had all the service records. The car had been maintained to the nth degree and was perfect inside and out. It looked like it had 20,000 miles not almost 70,000. We sell it to a long time customer who loves the car.

One week later it blows the transmission. :blink: :mad:

We are fixing it now but will have to eat several thousand dollars in repairs. We don't sell AS-IS cars so if something like that happens we will take care of it.

Couple of other examples. A 2000 BMW X5 we took in trade a year or so ago with the 3.0 engine. Those engines are usually very reliable and this particular one only had 130,000 miles and was in good shape overall. Salesman drove it out back where we park wholesale cars and left it there for the night. The next day one of our wholesalers came to pick it up and tired to start it. It would crank but not start. He screwed around with it couldn't get it to work. One of techs took a peek at it but also couldn't figure it out. Wasn't worth a whole lot of money before and now it is worth scrap because it won't start. I don't think anyone ever figured out what was wrong with it. We just took our loss and moved on not worth the trouble of paying a tech to diagnosis the problem beyond the 40 or so minutes they already spent looking at it.

Several years ago I took in a miled up but clean 318i coupe. Had almost 200,000 miles but was overall pretty good. Little faded paint little worn seats but drove fine. Still with that many miles and a 318i it was only worth about a grand maybe a little less I don't remember exactly.

Guy dropped it off friday to pick up his new car. I started it moved it to the back of the lot and put the keys on the UCMs desk so it could get picked up the next morning.

Our company wholesaler came to pick it up the next morning and when he went to start the car the ignition broke off in the column. The lock cylinder just spun around in a complete circle. Again not worth fixing just call a wrecker with a flat bed and drag it away.

In all my years in the business I can only think of a handful of cars who made it past 250,000 miles without having a serious engine or transmission replacement/overhaul. Most of them were Volvos but there were a couple of Saabs, a Dodge truck with just over 300,000, several Box cherokees past 250,000, one honda accord coupe and one toyota camry coupe.

Not many cars make it past 150,000 without some kind of serious need. Plus in the rust prone states the chassis of older cars can just give out before the engine does.

You are also forgetting the secondary goal of the CARS program. The primary goal was to boost NEW car sales. The secondary goal was to get inefficient cars of the road and replace them with more efficient ones. Even if the car can go another 150,000 more miles with minimal repairs, I still contend that is unlikely for the majority of these cars, the idea is to keep that from happening to use less imported oil.

So lets review primary goal to temporarily stimulate new car sales.

I think that has been a success. We were down to 94 new 2009 in stock cars for the whole autogroup last I checked on Friday. We had over double that at the start of July. We are also getting incremental sales from people who either have cars that don't qualify but by something new anyway and people that have a car that qualifies but by used because the real value of their clunker is close to 4,000 dollars.

Some of these people aren't even trading in their clunker they are keeping it but they are buying a car because they finally feel a bit more confident in the economy.

Secondary goal to get inefficient cars off the road and replace them with more fuel efficient models. The latest reports still show a nearly 10 mpg combined rated improvement from the clunker to the new car. When you consider that the clunker probably wasn't getting its original combined mpg rating anymore and that the new EPA rating is so dumbed down you that unless you drive like an idiot you should do better then the combined rating I bet the real world increase in gas mileage is over 10 mpg combined.

As opposed to a interest rate of 0 if they actually kept and maintained their existing car. Yeah going into debt just because the rate is low is a fantastic idea, what could possibly go wrong...oh wait...
Most of these people could have paid cash if they wanted to but why would you take money out of a money market account paying 2% or more when you can get a zero interest loan from the factory?

Once again smart consumers conserve their cash when loan rates are low relative to what kind of rate they can get in a relatively liquid investment.


One of the clunker deals we did for a Volvo went like this.

Worn out Grand Cherokee with body damage and a bad trans.

Needs thousands in repairs.

Yes it is drivable but not on the highway so what to do. Trade it in for a XC70 and take 10,000 dollars off sticker before the C4C money. Get a 43,000 dollars car for 29,500 dollars put down another 5,000 and fiance at 4.9% for 60 months.

Oh and 2009 Volvos have a five years 60,000 mile warranty right now with maintenance included. The only thing this guy will pay for in five years is his car payment, insurance, gas and tires.

Right now 2008 XC70s are selling for between 26,000 and 28,000 and those cars have less equipment then a 2009. He will never, ever be upside down in that car as he financed less then 27,000 dollars.

Again most of the people taking advantage of this program have significant resources. They have a ton of income and a ton of cash on hand because they have been hoarding it.
 
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JCE

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Again most of the people taking advantage of this program have significant resources. They have a ton of income and a ton of cash on hand because they have been hoarding it.
Why should we help them then? If they already have significant resources then why are they leeching money from a program that they infact do not need? Tell those rich and well off bastards to just trade the car in the old fashioned way and just buy the new fucking car. Why can't we help the people who just need reliable transportation to and from work to feed their family by letting a perfectly servicable vehicle be donated to a local charity or battered women's shelter? You know, those people who maybe don't have the money needed for a down payment OR the ability to pay an extra $250-500 per month in car payments and insurance when they only have $150 left per month after they pay their bills and feed their family? I cannot come up with a downpayment for a new car so why should I PAY someone else (and in your own words) who has the money for THEIR downpayment "C4C credit"?

OH WAIT why does this even matter anyway? That doesn't help waste our tax money for the SECOND time to the auto industry (only once for Ford) like Obama and his cronies want! I know! Lets hurt service shops, small repair businesses and even DEALER service centers by taking their customer base off the road thus causing job layoffs/business closings?

AAAAAAND while we are at it lets DESGUISE it as a GREEN ECONMONICAL bill designed to reduce the bad stuff coming out of the tail pipes! :rolleyes:

Truth is this is a complete wasteful program that does more harm than good in the long run. At this rate the national debt to just China alone will be $50B before Obamanation gets out of the White House. Mark my words 1-2 years from now you will see a BUNCH or dealership "repo" sales and Obama will of course help the auto makers again with MORE of our tax money. Why should I have to pay for companies that cannot run themselves? Its GM, Chrysler and everybody else's own fault for outsourcing their product to fucking Mexico, China and whatever other cheap labor countries. You want a real solution to fix "America", force the big three to build over 80% of the vehicles and their components in the USA and ditch the stupid unions. Oh wait that can't happen because our cars would start being way to expensive!! Newsflash, cars in America are some of the cheapest cars from the major world powers. Infact it costs an American LESS to buy a BMW, Mercedes and Audi in America than for the equivalent car from a GERMAN IN GERMANY. Maybe the quality goes up as well? Mexico? China? Are you SERIOUS?

I used to sell cars, and I made that mistake twice! I also used to sell other big ticket products--that's almost all I've done for 11 years. As of last Monday I am no longer in sales because it is a putrid industry that is based on deciet and lies towards its customers. I've had enough. Working at 3 dealerships and knowing alot of people that work at other dealerships I have a fairly broad insight in the industry at least at the local level. You can't tell me that all of the at least 20 local dealers I've delt with in some form or fashion in the past are all "bad apples on the massive apple tree". The JOB DESCRIPTION of ALL SALES MANAGERS at EVERY car dealership IS TO GET MORE MONEY FROM THE CUSTOMER AND GIVE THEM AS LITTLE FOR THEIR TRADE-IN AS POSSIBLE. The dealership proceeds to rape them on the trade-in as well as the loan/vehicle price that is in such poor taste. Yes its a business and that's fine for them to do that and a large portion of people are ignorant as to whats going on--its still a business and those practices are legal.

In closing I think I'm done reading and responding on these C4C threads on the forums I visit. It gets my stress level to the roof. :mad:
 

Ezbok58a

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Ok so you had the bad judgment to try and work for a slimey car dealership who actually trains their sales people to lie therefore all salespeople are slimey. Good to know.
I've actually went to at least 3 different jobs which did end up being all salesmen Jobs (Car dealer, insurance adjuster, and another car dealer) Surprisingly enough all three were preaching the lie through your teeth to make a sale/comission. Be a scumbag to get what you want.

That's 3 different jobs, I highly doubt there is anyplace that actually doesn't have salesmen who aren't trained to be complete dickheads.




Ok so you can impugn my reputation at will but I can't counter with examples showing how my company and myself are not sleazy without looking like a sleazy salesperson.

Got it do you want me to tie one hand behind my back too?
If you want to tie one hand behind your back thats fine with me...:lol:

No seriously though, I don't know you, or your dealership...all I know is that the way you're conducting yourself in reguards to at least 2-3 of these C4C threads is throwing my 'BS salesmen tactic' meter into the red...

That said, around here most of the 'family run' dealerships have much better/down to earth salesmen then say the giant car superstore giants littering the interstates...



Youtube videos are not a random sample. If you are taking videos of cars that you are clunking which vids are more likely to get the most hits?

The video of the obvious clunker smoking and falling apart before they even start the procedure or the nice looking one with no visible body damage or rust?

I know which one I would think would get the most hits. Just cause a car looks nice cosmetically on a video doesn't mean it is in good shape. I have appraised plenty of cars that looked great at first but after a more complete examination and a test drive were obviously total junk. On the flip side I have seen totally dogged out beat on cars that drove great and probably really did have 100,000 more miles in them.

Don't ever assume that just cause a car has made it 100,000ish miles it can go another 150,000 without major problems. Doing that gets you into trouble. Like I said before we rarely retail used cars that have close to 100,000 miles on them but if we have serviced the car for most of its life and it has good service history we might retail one.
Funny you should mention that, because today I was at my local dealership and actually looked at their C4C cars they had sitting on the side. Of the 6 they had, 1 was a actual clunker (a mid 80s wrangler covered in rust), 1 wasn't anything special (96 Grand Marquis with 150k and not so much care during it's life), 1 could've gone either way (late 90s GMC Yukon with 112k) and the other 3 were cars that have now met their untimely deaths and should've at least ended up as some high school teens vehicle for them to roll over or wrap around a tree.
(Late 80s-90s Camaro Z28 with 82k and clean, late 90s-00's Dakota RT 4x4 V8 with a babied 75k on it, and a late 90's Blazer with 60k)

You can see them here in these iPhone pics I took leaving...




So out of the 6 cars they had, half at least deserved to live a little longer, the other half no one really gives a shit.

Granted this program does bring to light which dealerships are run by absolute scum and which are run by people who are not only smart, but who actually care about their customers...

This Ford dealer, 6 cars, The local Family Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealer (and adjacent Cadillac dealership) 8 cars...

The scumbag dealership that should've been axed.... 18 (Most of which would be good used cars for some people...)
 

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OMG that Z28 is CLEAN and worth a FUCKLOAD more than $4,500! Seriously someone should save that thing before the goons at the dealership trash it. And the Blazer + Dakota with low mileage for their ages need to be donated to charity because they are likely a good A to B daily driver.
 

MattD1zzl3

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I already knew the NYT was full of and run by fools. :p
Would you mind terribly getting your national friends together and attacking some random fort so we could defeat you on the field of battle again? :) Its been 140 years and i do believe i am getting the itch.
 

thedguy

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OMG that Z28 is CLEAN and worth a FUCKLOAD more than $4,500! Seriously someone should save that thing before the goons at the dealership trash it. And the Blazer + Dakota with low mileage for their ages need to be donated to charity because they are likely a good A to B daily driver.
It's probably an 82, at which point, no one gives a damn. An 88 v6 will outpace it in the 1/4. :tease:
 

British_Rover

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OMG that Z28 is CLEAN and worth a FUCKLOAD more than $4,500! Seriously someone should save that thing before the goons at the dealership trash it. And the Blazer + Dakota with low mileage for their ages need to be donated to charity because they are likely a good A to B daily driver.
I can see why you didn't make it in the car business. You have no clue what cars are really worth.

Lets see old slow 80s Z28 clean or not isn't worth more then 500-1000 bucks wholesale.

Less if its in poor shape.

You can buy Fourth Gen Z28 Camaros for under $6,000 retail all day long so why would anyone pay $4,500 wholesale or even $4,500 private party for a Third gen camaro.


Cars.com Camaros under $6,000 Z28 only



Here is a screen shot of my galves price list for today.

1999 Camaro Z28 Six speed Sport package less then 100,000 miles




Market ready means the car has good brakes, good tires and will need minimal reconditioning. Trade in assumes it might need brakes and tires also probably needs a full detail, normal fixing of scratches and digs for its year maybe some work in the interior.

If a 1999 model year Camaro is worth 4,500 tops then there is no way a third gen model is worth anywhere near that.
 
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Spectre

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Would you mind terribly getting your national friends together and attacking some random fort so we could defeat you on the field of battle again? :) Its been 140 years and i do believe i am getting the itch.
Last time around, the North won because they had all the industry and money.

This time around the South, and specifically Texas, has all the industry and money. And we're not stupid enough to attack a fort that would be easier to starve out instead.

On top of which, at the end of the last Civil War, the North had no troops in Texas - the Texans had run them all off.


Also, BritRover: Remember, regional pricing variances. 3rd gen F-bodies are worth significantly more in the South and Midwest than they are in New England or California.
 
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JCE

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Also, BritRover: Remember, regional pricing variances. 3rd gen F-bodies are worth significantly more in the South and Midwest than they are in New England or California.
I put this person on ignore now, now he's just getting annoying. He personifies the statement I made about how car dealership employees obviously do not know the correct market value for collectors, rare and or classic vehicles. I don't care what his little car value program says, private party (much less retail) that Z28 with less than 90k miles WILL SELL for well over $4,500 not just in Texas but anywhere in the mainland US.

#1
#2
#3

Those are a few general examples of what a lower mileage 3rd gen Z would sell for in the condition that the Z28 pictures was in...which is all/mostly original and clean. And remember this is ebay so you are getting a cheaper price than you would if you listed it on the classifieds.

He OBVIOUSLY has no idea what the value is of this CLEAN Z28 with this low of a mileage. And him throwing out that "slow" comment was just a moronic thing to do. He's obviously trying to provoke me as I own a 3rd gen Camaro.

Good riddance to this topic.
 
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Ezbok58a

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Up here in 'the north' that Z28, even being that clean is proabably a 2500 dealer trade in value (meaning in the real market you could get 4-5000 for it)...

That as well as both the Dakota and Blazer could and should've ended up as some teenagers first car.
 

thedguy

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Here in Cali they ain't worth dick. A friend of mine had one that was 120k miles on it and quite clean. It had sat in his parents driveway for quite a while and things started getting stacked on it. He finally gave into the city telling him to get rid of the pile of junk. He couldn't sell it for 1k. It ran and the paint was repolished/waxed before trying to sell it to no avail.

One could argue that the people paying 4k for these or more are just lacking in intelligence... :dunno:
 

Ezbok58a

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Here in Cali they ain't worth dick. A friend of mine had one that was 120k miles on it and quite clean. It had sat in his parents driveway for quite a while and things started getting stacked on it. He finally gave into the city telling him to get rid of the pile of junk. He couldn't sell it for 1k. It ran and the paint was repolished/waxed before trying to sell it to no avail.

One could argue that the people paying 4k for these or more are just lacking in intelligence... :dunno:
Usually the people who want one of the 3rd gen F-bodies want a clean 'low mileage' example of one.

The one I saw in the C4C section would fit that bill, the previous owner was more then likely a idiot and didn't realize what he could've gotten for that car...

Or he knew he could've gotten 4,500 for it in a private sale but knew the car would be up for sale for at least 2-3 months with plenty of tire kickers before someone actually bought it. Trading it in was probably one less headache for him to deal with...

That same dealer just got 2 new C4C cars, a 98-02 Expedition, and a late 90s dodge conversion van...
 

British_Rover

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Location
Torrington, CT United States
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I put this person on ignore now, now he's just getting annoying. He personifies the statement I made about how car dealership employees obviously do not know the correct market value for collectors, rare and or classic vehicles. I don't care what his little car value program says, private party (much less retail) that Z28 with less than 90k miles WILL SELL for well over $4,500 not just in Texas but anywhere in the mainland US.

#1
#2
#3

Those are a few general examples of what a lower mileage 3rd gen Z would sell for in the condition that the Z28 pictures was in...which is all/mostly original and clean. And remember this is ebay so you are getting a cheaper price than you would if you listed it on the classifieds.

He OBVIOUSLY has no idea what the value is of this CLEAN Z28 with this low of a mileage. And him throwing out that "slow" comment was just a moronic thing to do. He's obviously trying to provoke me as I own a 3rd gen Camaro.

Good riddance to this topic.
Yeah I think you should step away from these topics you get way, way too involved. Probably not good for your blood pressure.

You can't just cherry pick three of the highest 3rd gen camaros sold on ebay and say that sets the market. No, one or two sales sets the market. Sure some idiot might overpay by a grand or so for a car and on something cheap like an older camaro someone might overpay by double or triple but that is not the market for that vehicle.


Did you even look at the description of the second camaro? The 1985 with 140,000 miles and a SALVAGE TITLE. The normal deduct for a car with a salvage title is one third to one half value. It doesn't matter as much because this car is over 20 years old but its still a significant factor.

That guy over paid by I don't know 3,000 or 4,000 dollars. I don't care if the guy says it looks good it is a 140,000 old car with a salvage title.

Try this instead to use Ebay to figure out the value of something. Go select completed auctions for the type of car you are looking for. Average out all the completed sales and see what price you get. If you do that for 1988-1992 Camaros then throw out all the Convertiables, because they will be outliers on the high side, and then all the V6 and any car labeled as a project, because they will be outliers on the low side, you get an average of $2,600 dollars. That is about right for a clean V8 3rd gen Camaro for private party. Would I pay a little more for a really nice one with super low miles, bought from the original owner and full service records? Sure but not double that. I mean maybe if I really really liked that body style I would. If you hate the 4th gen bodystyle and want to pay 150% of retail pricing on a 3rd gen then that is your prerogative.

What I think we have here is a real lack of understanding on what a Classic, rare or antique car is. A 3rd gen camaro is none of those things. It isn't old enough to be a classic or antique. Talk to me in 15 more years and then it will be. Right now it is just an old car that is still depreciating. Also the car is not rare. What was F-Body production around that time 100,000 a year maybe 130,000 a year? They always sold more camaros then Firebirds so figure maybe 60,000 to 70,000 camaros with a third to a quarter as V8s.

That's not a rare car not yet anyway. Sure it can be a hobby car and even a collectible car to the right subset of people but it is not a Classic and it is not rare. There aren't that many cars from the 80s that are rare yet and none are really classics cause they aren't old enough. A GNX is rare and will be a antique/classic when it gets a bit older.

Lastly the stock 3rd gen camaros are slow. They had 250ish max hp V8s stock in a 3,000 lbs plus car. That's not fast anymore. Main stream vanilla family sedans have V6s with more horsepower. Sure they are boring FWD couches, Ford Fusion Sport some what of an exception, for the most part but they have more power and only weigh a few hundred lbs more.

V6 Camry, V6 Accord, V6 malibu and V6 fusion sport

I know you won't believe me cause it is plastered all over your profile but I really didn't even notice you had a Camaro. I usually don't pay attention to it and sometimes I have sigs off. Even when I have them off I scroll right past them. I didn't mean to offend your car or something and didn't say it to piss you off. You are just reading into things. The fact is a stock 3rd gen Z28 is slow by modern standards. That was what a mid six second 0-60 car stock when new and a 15 to 15.5 1/4 mile car? Sure you could make them real fast but that is not fast now. That is about what my old 2004 MINI Cooper S ran when stock and it could handle the twistys too.

Up here in 'the north' that Z28, even being that clean is proabably a 2500 dealer trade in value (meaning in the real market you could get 4-5000 for it)...

That as well as both the Dakota and Blazer could and should've ended up as some teenagers first car.
No its not. You are in NJ Galves is the wholesale book for NJ. 1000ish all the money in the world for that car wholesale. Its a 2,500 dollar private party car though maybe a little more with the right marketing which puts it right around the $2,700 average figure I got from averaging the Ebay sales.


Here in Cali they ain't worth dick. A friend of mine had one that was 120k miles on it and quite clean. It had sat in his parents driveway for quite a while and things started getting stacked on it. He finally gave into the city telling him to get rid of the pile of junk. He couldn't sell it for 1k. It ran and the paint was repolished/waxed before trying to sell it to no avail.

One could argue that the people paying 4k for these or more are just lacking in intelligence... :dunno:
Oh absolutely. One or two sales do not set a market. There are plenty of stupid people out there and people who aren't stupid but just overpay for emotional reasons. I mean if you really, really like the third gen style and find a very clean one with all the service records babied by the original owner and the only way to get it off his hands is to pay $5,500 dollars then fine go ahead. Don't try and say that sets the market for that car though. A sale like that is like Barret Jackson auctions. Sure the car sold for that much once in that one location but it isn't really worth that. Its worth that cause of the Barret Jackson premium. People getting all excited and all the cameras people get emotional and overpay for a car.

Emotion shouldn't be part of the buying process when appraising a car and should be discounted as much as possible when trying to buy or sell one. It just makes you overpay as a buyer and turn away people who make what you think are unrealistic offers as a seller.
 
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