Clarkson bashing the Mustang

We're talking about sports cars like the Corvette. Mainstream automobiles were lost by Detroit 30 years ago. Through many series of embarrassing mistakes, bad PR (remember the Corvair? Pushing it, but still...), complacency and sheer arrogance, the Japanese have made inroads into the market and have controlled most of the American mainstream market. But you already knew that since you live in America, and can't fling a Triple Quarter Pounder with Cheese without having the messy bits splatter a fine Toyota product. I'm one to face the facts: most American cars suck. And their interiors might as well be smeared in a fine layer of poo, and there wouldn't be a difference in their quality.

Yet not American sports cars; they're a different breed. They have existed for the American car enthusiast public: the crowd that cares more about quarter-mile times than handling characteristics. And that's what those people expect! Just like Europeans expect different things from their sports cars, Americans expect different things from their sports cars. That's what 94Camaro was trying to get across, albeit with some misunderstanding. Then again, I'm assuming that he owns, well, a 1994 Camaro, so admittingly he's biased as you are with your (utterly gorgeous) 240Z.

I guess I've played devil's advocate a bit with this post, but that's because I like all cars, European and American. So it's hard to take sides.
 
Z Draci said:
94Camaro and Blaro, you both are kidding me right?
If American cars meet the demands of the American people, why is the American car industry crumbling to shambles?

Maybe you believe that reason Americans buy the most Japanese and European cars in the world is just a mere coincidence?
When a wealthy man wants a good sports car, he will reach for the Ferrari or Porsche.
When a wealthy man wants a good luxury car, he will reach for a Rolls or Mercedes.
If money was not the issue, I don't think too many sensible people would buy an American car (except for their nostalgic value).
I already believe Americans know that the best cars in the world do not come from the US. The majority of the American consumers are simply ignorant and don't care what they get. The consumers never demand more so the companies never give them any better.

I knew a few people who owned Z28's. Some of them couldn't live with the fact that something like an Integra could out-manuver them and have better build quality. They soon sold their Z28's and got Japanese cars.
Come on, don't kid yourself. If you were a normal car buyer, you would want your car's interior to stay intact for more than a year.

Of course I won't understand the minds that settle for mediocracy. I'm not like those little guys that marry fat & ugly women and proclaim to everybody how wonderful her personality is, how mature she acts, etc. just to justify that you couldn't afford any better. No, I am not like those guys nor can I understand how their minds function.

Yes, fat & ugly women are fun to mock. Just because they exist for your entertainment doesn't mean you have to proclaim undying love and marry her.
LMFAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding me? I nearly fell off my chair? Now I see what the problem is, you're a RICER. Maybe you jsut don't know it. Even if an Integra outmaneuvers a Z28, it's still a 100+ hp econo-shitbox with zero style vs. a 315 stock HP rice eating machine. Yea, you could put a shit load of money into it only to match the Z's HP, but why would you do that? Because you was brainwashed by The Fast and The Furious. Go buy an acura with it's trash styling and put a fart-can-muffler on it so you can try to and sound like a V8. :roll: Even Integra owners are all about 0-60 times and not about handling, yet they talk about 16 seconds in the 1/4 mile like it's their best time, meanwhile they trash talk and try to talk on Cobras, Camaros, and Mustangs. That is why I think you are, or your friends are ricers, ignoring the performance, quality, and style facts, and picking up a piece of shit over a muscle car? Frankly it sounds like you made that up. It's like saying I had a friend who bought an Aston Martin DB9, but could handle how Z28s and Firebirds had a lower HP rating and looked kinda cool, so he switched over to the Z28. HA!

I'm not even going to touch that "ugly fat women, marrying" remark.. I think you just lost your train of thought several times in mid sentence, but kept typing anyway. Your mind may be somewhere in that sentence as well, go back and look for it. Americans don't settle for mediocrity, we go for style, and performance. BMW's and many so called luxury cars, look like trash to me, no offense at all to any owners, it's just my opinion.

I am a normal car buyer. My car's interior has stayed intact going on almost 12 years now.

American's buy more Japanese and European cars than anyone? I don't know about that, could be, we're a country with a lot of people that do a lot of buying, ever think of that?

For the past 3 years, Cadillac has sold more lucury cars than anyone else, including Lexus and BMW.

Chevrolet was the best selling passenger car brand in the U.S. last year.

According to J.D Power, GM was the number 1 multi-line manufacturer in sales satisfaction last year. Toyota and Lexus were in 7th place.

Let's talk about Toyota a Japanese company some more...In terms of quality, of Toyota's 8 plants, their best quality ranking is 5th. Toyota workers work for less money and are 5 times more likely than a GM worker to sustain an on the job injury and 10 times more likely to be injured seriously enough to lose work days. And the Toyota Prius for example, Toyota claims about 60 MPG. In reality it gets about half and Prius owners are very unhappy with it and it's performance.

Oh and maybe you haven't heard, but GM worked on the B9 Tribecca with Suburau and the WRX.

You can't seem to get the simple facts through your thick skull. Give up, you ake yourself look more foolish every post. I usually don't make personal attacks like this, but when someone says something so blatantly ignorant with zero facts, I can't stand Idlely by. Good day sir.
 
Z Draci said:
If money was not the issue, I don't think too many sensible people would buy an American car (except for their nostalgic value).

Woah, back up the bus. If money wasn't an issue? Since when wasn't money an issue? To compare an inexpensive American car with an expensive European car "as if money didn't matter" is just ridiculous. You know what, if money didn't matter, I'd buy an American car. I'd buy a Ford GT. One of the sexiest cars in the world. Still American, right? Oh, wait, maybe a Saleen S7! Hey, that's American, too! If I wanted luxury, I could buy a Lincoln or a Cadillac. There's a broad spectrum of vehicles made in the US.


Please stop making grand generalizations about American cars all being cheap and garbage. I'm sure the ratio of crap:good cars is about the same in Europe, except you pay a lot more for everything there.
 
94Camaro said:
Z Draci said:
94Camaro and Blaro, you both are kidding me right?
If American cars meet the demands of the American people, why is the American car industry crumbling to shambles?

Maybe you believe that reason Americans buy the most Japanese and European cars in the world is just a mere coincidence?
When a wealthy man wants a good sports car, he will reach for the Ferrari or Porsche.
When a wealthy man wants a good luxury car, he will reach for a Rolls or Mercedes.
If money was not the issue, I don't think too many sensible people would buy an American car (except for their nostalgic value).
I already believe Americans know that the best cars in the world do not come from the US. The majority of the American consumers are simply ignorant and don't care what they get. The consumers never demand more so the companies never give them any better.

I knew a few people who owned Z28's. Some of them couldn't live with the fact that something like an Integra could out-manuver them and have better build quality. They soon sold their Z28's and got Japanese cars.
Come on, don't kid yourself. If you were a normal car buyer, you would want your car's interior to stay intact for more than a year.

Of course I won't understand the minds that settle for mediocracy. I'm not like those little guys that marry fat & ugly women and proclaim to everybody how wonderful her personality is, how mature she acts, etc. just to justify that you couldn't afford any better. No, I am not like those guys nor can I understand how their minds function.

Yes, fat & ugly women are fun to mock. Just because they exist for your entertainment doesn't mean you have to proclaim undying love and marry her.
LMFAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding me? I nearly fell off my chair? Now I see what the problem is, you're a RICER. Maybe you jsut don't know it. Even if an Integra outmaneuvers a Z28, it's still a 100+ hp econo-shitbox with zero style vs. a 315 stock HP rice eating machine. Yea, you could put a shit load of money into it only to match the Z's HP, but why would you do that? Because you was brainwashed by The Fast and The Furious. Go buy an acura with it's trash styling and put a fart-can-muffler on it so you can try to and sound like a V8. :roll: Even Integra owners are all about 0-60 times and not about handling, yet they talk about 16 seconds in the 1/4 mile like it's their best time, meanwhile they trash talk and try to talk on Cobras, Camaros, and Mustangs. That is why I think you are, or your friends are ricers, ignoring the performance, quality, and style facts, and picking up a piece of shit over a muscle car? Frankly it sounds like you made that up. It's like saying I had a friend who bought an Aston Martin DB9, but could handle how Z28s and Firebirds had a lower HP rating and looked kinda cool, so he switched over to the Z28. HA!

I'm not even going to touch that "ugly fat women, marrying" remark.. I think you just lost your train of thought several times in mid sentence, but kept typing anyway. Your mind may be somewhere in that sentence as well, go back and look for it. Americans don't settle for mediocrity, we go for style, and performance. BMW's and many so called luxury cars, look like trash to me, no offense at all to any owners, it's just my opinion.

I am a normal car buyer. My car's interior has stayed intact going on almost 12 years now.

American's buy more Japanese and European cars than anyone? I don't know about that, could be, we're a country with a lot of people that do a lot of buying, ever think of that?

For the past 3 years, Cadillac has sold more lucury cars than anyone else, including Lexus and BMW.

Chevrolet was the best selling passenger car brand in the U.S. last year.

According to J.D Power, GM was the number 1 multi-line manufacturer in sales satisfaction last year. Toyota and Lexus were in 7th place.

Let's talk about Toyota a Japanese company some more...In terms of quality, of Toyota's 8 plants, their best quality ranking is 5th. Toyota workers work for less money and are 5 times more likely than a GM worker to sustain an on the job injury and 10 times more likely to be injured seriously enough to lose work days. And the Toyota Prius for example, Toyota claims about 60 MPG. In reality it gets about half and Prius owners are very unhappy with it and it's performance.

Oh and maybe you haven't heard, but GM worked on the B9 Tribecca with Suburau and the WRX.

You can't seem to get the simple facts through your thick skull. Give up, you ake yourself look more foolish every post. I usually don't make personal attacks like this, but when someone says something so blatantly ignorant with zero facts, I can't stand Idlely by. Good day sir.

I'll be blunt. You sir, 94Camaro are full of misguided shit.

Please explain the problem with Ricers. Just because a car has less horsepower than your leviathin Camaro, doesn't mean it isn't faster. People don't get brainwashed by the Fast and the Furious, they look at a largely stupid and unrealistic movie, but they see the cars and wake up and smell the roses. You can do a shitload more and wank a shitload less with a car that isn't as dumb or shoddily built as a Mustang. Speaking of trash styling and the Mustang, need I remind you of Mustangs from the '70s right through to current. There has not been one that looks like it hasn't been inbred. Do not ever, ever tell me any American car is built better than ANYTHING from Japan, Europe, Australia, India, Hell anywhere. American cars are the worst built in the world. Even America's own car industry will acknowledge that on a very very very quiet level. A lot of industry high ups are busy asking WTF at the moment.

Z's right about the ugly fat women remark, maybe you should have defended yourself. Oh wait, you couldn't.

Who care's who's selling the most cars? That is not a relevant factor in this argument. The relevant factor is quality and performance. Of course American brands are the most sold over there. American brands have tradition and a belief that they will be better than anything else, because quite frankly, most Americans never bother to try anything else. Have you ever owned a non-American car 94? I severely doubt it judging by that outburst.

Job injuries? What's that got to do with quality? Piss off before your useless facts cloud the board, this isn't relevant or even interesting. I couldn't give a shit. I'd wager no-one else here could care less either.

Yes the Prius is a piece of shit. But that is one car. If you use that as a generalisation for the entire population of foreign cars, you do have problems.

Oh and maybe you haven't heard that the only thing GM had to do with the WRX and the B9 was the fact that they own a small percentage of FHI. They had nothing to do with the development or the styling.

You are a misguided fool. Get out of America and see the world. Oh sorry I should have broken it to you softly, the world is larger than America's borders. There is this amazing book that I'm told is quite rare over there, it's called an Atlas. Here's a tip, start in Germany (pronounced Jer-man-nee) You will find that you are arrogant, single minded, and wrong.
 
94Camaro said:
LMFAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding me? I nearly fell off my chair? Now I see what the problem is, you're a RICER. Maybe you jsut don't know it. Even if an Integra outmaneuvers a Z28, it's still a 100+ hp econo-shitbox with zero style vs. a 315 stock HP rice eating machine. Yea, you could put a shit load of money into it only to match the Z's HP, but why would you do that? Because you was brainwashed by The Fast and The Furious. Go buy an acura with it's trash styling and put a fart-can-muffler on it so you can try to and sound like a V8. :roll: Even Integra owners are all about 0-60 times and not about handling, yet they talk about 16 seconds in the 1/4 mile like it's their best time, meanwhile they trash talk and try to talk on Cobras, Camaros, and Mustangs. That is why I think you are, or your friends are ricers, ignoring the performance, quality, and style facts, and picking up a piece of shit over a muscle car? Frankly it sounds like you made that up. It's like saying I had a friend who bought an Aston Martin DB9, but could handle how Z28s and Firebirds had a lower HP rating and looked kinda cool, so he switched over to the Z28. HA!

I'm not even going to touch that "ugly fat women, marrying" remark.. I think you just lost your train of thought several times in mid sentence, but kept typing anyway. Your mind may be somewhere in that sentence as well, go back and look for it. Americans don't settle for mediocrity, we go for style, and performance. BMW's and many so called luxury cars, look like trash to me, no offense at all to any owners, it's just my opinion.

I am a normal car buyer. My car's interior has stayed intact going on almost 12 years now.

American's buy more Japanese and European cars than anyone? I don't know about that, could be, we're a country with a lot of people that do a lot of buying, ever think of that?

For the past 3 years, Cadillac has sold more lucury cars than anyone else, including Lexus and BMW.

Chevrolet was the best selling passenger car brand in the U.S. last year.

According to J.D Power, GM was the number 1 multi-line manufacturer in sales satisfaction last year. Toyota and Lexus were in 7th place.

Let's talk about Toyota a Japanese company some more...In terms of quality, of Toyota's 8 plants, their best quality ranking is 5th. Toyota workers work for less money and are 5 times more likely than a GM worker to sustain an on the job injury and 10 times more likely to be injured seriously enough to lose work days. And the Toyota Prius for example, Toyota claims about 60 MPG. In reality it gets about half and Prius owners are very unhappy with it and it's performance.

Oh and maybe you haven't heard, but GM worked on the B9 Tribecca with Suburau and the WRX.

You can't seem to get the simple facts through your thick skull. Give up, you ake yourself look more foolish every post. I usually don't make personal attacks like this, but when someone says something so blatantly ignorant with zero facts, I can't stand Idlely by. Good day sir.

Sorry, I was mistaken for trying to start a debate with you.
Everything you've mentioned has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You even said BMW's look like trash . . . and you said BMW was a luxury brand. Those two statements alone should be enough to expose how little you know.

I'll be wasting my time if I go on about your fallacies.
I rest my case. THE END
 
flyingfridge said:
American cars are the worst built in the world.


Well, wow. You know, I used to read your posts with some interest. Unfortunately, you've proven yourself to be nothing but a mere Nissan fanboy. You decry every last American car as the "Worst built in the entire world."

Whoops. Fanboy mistake number 1.

As I've stated before in this thread, there are many poorly made American cars. There are also many poorly made European cars. There are poorly made Indian cars, there are poorly made Russian cars (I consider Ladas to be the worst-made cars ever, BTW. Much worse than any American car.), I'm sure if they made cars in Antarctica, there'd be some poorly-made ones there, too.

However, it doesn't make a lick of difference. Saying that "OMG! AMERICAN CARZ = TEH SUX" is about as bright as saying all women are unattractive. Sure, some are, but most aren't. There are lots of well-made American vehicles. Unfortunately, you refuse to take off your blinders to appreciate them.

Do not ever, ever tell me any American car is built better than ANYTHING from Japan, Europe, Australia, India, Hell anywhere.

A Viper is built better than your Prelude. There, I've proved you wrong. Yes, they are very different cars, but your post was very open-ended.

Please explain the problem with Ricers. Just because a car has less horsepower than your leviathin Camaro, doesn't mean it isn't faster. People don't get brainwashed by the Fast and the Furious, they look at a largely stupid and unrealistic movie, but they see the cars and wake up and smell the roses.

Fanboy Mistake #2: Using The Fast and the Furious to bolster your point in any way.

Did you just seriously say that F&F makes people want to be Ricers, and that it's a good thing? Come on. F&F had some fast cars, with performance modifications, and some ugly-ass underglow and paint. Fantastic.

However, you've overlooked the simple fact that, say, an 800HP Skyline is far, far from rice. I consider the Skylines, RX7's, Supras, etc. to be true sports cars. Go ahead, throw some decals on them, put a wing on it. At least it has the performance to back up the looks.

The true idiot Ricers are the people who saw the godforsaken movie, thought, "Hey, I wish MY car was that fast!", then realized they have no money or desire to do engine work, so they settled for a bodykit and underglow for their bone stock Civic. Now they have a slow car that looks fast with nothing to back it up. Fantastic.

Want to know something else? Where I live, the vast majority of fast imports (The 400+HP modified ones) have BONE STOCK exteriors. No wings, no bodykits, no underglow. The wildest change would be a new set of rims. The fast import community has realized that there are so many slow ricers out there since F&F, they've diluted what used to be cool (Having a fast-looking car that is acatually fast) into something lame.

F&F didn't make people "wake up and smell the roses." It made them turn their shitty cars into ugly, shitty cars.

You can do a shitload more and wank a shitload less with a car that isn't as dumb or shoddily built as a Mustang.

Ah, the classic "I can make my FF econobox faster than your FR musclecar!" argument. This has been covered a million times, but I'll try to sum it up for you. Yes, you can make power from an economy 4cyl car by adding forced induction, or through other means. However, you can make more power with a v8, and you can do it for cheaper. There's a reason many people are swapping LS1's into RX7 chassis with great success.

There is nothing magical about imported cars that make them more modifiable than others. What you can do to a Mustang, you can do to an Prelude. Yes, I'm sure the Prelude will handle a little better than the Mustang in stock form, no question about it. However, if you put 400Hp though both of them, the Mustang will handle better. Why?The FF platform is extremely limited in the amount of power it can take. The more power you put through the from tires, the less turning traction you will get, which leads to terrible understeer. It's for the same reason that Supras, Skylines, and RX7's are either RWD or AWD.


So there you have it. American cars are not terrible, they're not slow, they're quite inexpensive and very quick for the dollar. Stop making broad generalizations about American cars, you only weaken your position and others' opinion of you. It's better to be a well-balanced individual than a fanboy.
 
I wonder why is there virtually no market for the American cars outside of North America if they are as good as European/Japanese cars :think:
 
DJ said:
I wonder why is there virtually no market for the American cars outside of North America if they are as good as European/Japanese cars :think:
Only for mainstream cars. Like I said, they suck. We're talking about sports cars here.

Jesus, did this thread awaken the fanboy in all of us, or what? It's mystifying...

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. In regards to American sports cars, they're about as sophisticated as a mine cart, but fast enough that it doesn't matter.
 
Z Draci said:
Of course I won't understand the minds that settle for mediocracy. I'm not like those little guys that marry fat & ugly women and proclaim to everybody how wonderful her personality is, how mature she acts, etc. just to justify that you couldn't afford any better. No, I am not like those guys nor can I understand how their minds function.

Yes, fat & ugly women are fun to mock. Just because they exist for your entertainment doesn't mean you have to proclaim undying love and marry her.

How twisted. You're really quite sad arn't you.
 
BlaRo said:
DJ said:
I wonder why is there virtually no market for the American cars outside of North America if they are as good as European/Japanese cars :think:
Only for mainstream cars. Like I said, they suck. We're talking about sports cars here.

I've traveled through almost all of Europe, but I haven't seen a significant number of US sports cars in any country. A few Vettes and maaaaaaaaybe a Viper here and there ... But nowhere near the number of Porsches and Ferraris. Did you have a specific country in mind? There are a few of them I haven't visited yet.
 
BerserkerCatSplat said:
flyingfridge said:
American cars are the worst built in the world.


Well, wow. You know, I used to read your posts with some interest. Unfortunately, you've proven yourself to be nothing but a mere Nissan fanboy. You decry every last American car as the "Worst built in the entire world."

Whoops. Fanboy mistake number 1.

As I've stated before in this thread, there are many poorly made American cars. There are also many poorly made European cars. There are poorly made Indian cars, there are poorly made Russian cars (I consider Ladas to be the worst-made cars ever, BTW. Much worse than any American car.), I'm sure if they made cars in Antarctica, there'd be some poorly-made ones there, too.

However, it doesn't make a lick of difference. Saying that "OMG! AMERICAN CARZ = TEH SUX" is about as bright as saying all women are unattractive. Sure, some are, but most aren't. There are lots of well-made American vehicles. Unfortunately, you refuse to take off your blinders to appreciate them.

Do not ever, ever tell me any American car is built better than ANYTHING from Japan, Europe, Australia, India, Hell anywhere.

A Viper is built better than your Prelude. There, I've proved you wrong. Yes, they are very different cars, but your post was very open-ended.

Please explain the problem with Ricers. Just because a car has less horsepower than your leviathin Camaro, doesn't mean it isn't faster. People don't get brainwashed by the Fast and the Furious, they look at a largely stupid and unrealistic movie, but they see the cars and wake up and smell the roses.

Fanboy Mistake #2: Using The Fast and the Furious to bolster your point in any way.

Did you just seriously say that F&F makes people want to be Ricers, and that it's a good thing? Come on. F&F had some fast cars, with performance modifications, and some ugly-ass underglow and paint. Fantastic.

However, you've overlooked the simple fact that, say, an 800HP Skyline is far, far from rice. I consider the Skylines, RX7's, Supras, etc. to be true sports cars. Go ahead, throw some decals on them, put a wing on it. At least it has the performance to back up the looks.

The true idiot Ricers are the people who saw the godforsaken movie, thought, "Hey, I wish MY car was that fast!", then realized they have no money or desire to do engine work, so they settled for a bodykit and underglow for their bone stock Civic. Now they have a slow car that looks fast with nothing to back it up. Fantastic.

Want to know something else? Where I live, the vast majority of fast imports (The 400+HP modified ones) have BONE STOCK exteriors. No wings, no bodykits, no underglow. The wildest change would be a new set of rims. The fast import community has realized that there are so many slow ricers out there since F&F, they've diluted what used to be cool (Having a fast-looking car that is acatually fast) into something lame.

F&F didn't make people "wake up and smell the roses." It made them turn their shitty cars into ugly, shitty cars.

You can do a shitload more and wank a shitload less with a car that isn't as dumb or shoddily built as a Mustang.

Ah, the classic "I can make my FF econobox faster than your FR musclecar!" argument. This has been covered a million times, but I'll try to sum it up for you. Yes, you can make power from an economy 4cyl car by adding forced induction, or through other means. However, you can make more power with a v8, and you can do it for cheaper. There's a reason many people are swapping LS1's into RX7 chassis with great success.

There is nothing magical about imported cars that make them more modifiable than others. What you can do to a Mustang, you can do to an Prelude. Yes, I'm sure the Prelude will handle a little better than the Mustang in stock form, no question about it. However, if you put 400Hp though both of them, the Mustang will handle better. Why?The FF platform is extremely limited in the amount of power it can take. The more power you put through the from tires, the less turning traction you will get, which leads to terrible understeer. It's for the same reason that Supras, Skylines, and RX7's are either RWD or AWD.


So there you have it. American cars are not terrible, they're not slow, they're quite inexpensive and very quick for the dollar. Stop making broad generalizations about American cars, you only weaken your position and others' opinion of you. It's better to be a well-balanced individual than a fanboy.

Catsplat, Catsplat, Catsplat. Sigh. I'm rather well balanced. It seems that you may be the one a bit off centre here. Some say ingnorance is bliss but I think you'd better stop enjoying yourself and start paying attention, boy. It's time to do some learnin'.

OK, firstly I'd like to address your accusation of the 'Nissan Fanboy'. If I was a Nissan Fanboy, I'd have made minimum 20 references to Nissan already on this thread. I'd also have complete disrespect for anything that may be a rival to Nissan, such as the RX-7, RX-8, 911, NSX etc... Interestingly, I regard the RX-7 as one of the greatest sports cars of all time, and I shouldn't have to explain the carnal attraction I seem to have to the 911 if I hang around on this forum.

You seem to be quick to the point there and ready to shoot me down. Sure, I'm opinionated, but opinions aren't formed from nothing. My opinion of American cars was formed over experience (my old man was a car dealer) so I've seen plenty. None of which have been any good. I'll stand by what I said in my last post. On average, American cars are the worst built in the world. I've had experiences in Ladas too, including one very memorable four wheel driving trip in a Niva.

The Viper may be built better than my Prelude, but then, the Viper is being built in 2005, my Prelude was built in 1990. That's a 15 year age gap. 15 years is a long time for progression. That's not comparing apples to apples. Here's a challenging challenge: Can you name an American car from the same era that was better built? Don't say the old Viper was better either. I have seen old Vipers up nice close and personal, and no, they weren't better built than my Prelude. They weren't from the same era either. They were newer.

You really ought to read the thread better dumbass. If you looked, you'd see 94Camaro also used F&F in his argument. Now, if I'm going to counter argue, I have to refer to his statement. F&F is not a credible movie. The cars are gaudy and wank (even the Skyline was overdone).

The terminology 'Ricer' comes from the term 'Rice Burner' which was originally a derogatory term for Rotary cars because of the funny sound. It then made it's way to all Japanese performance cars. A Ricer is any Japanese performance car. Yes Skylines, Supras and RX-7s are all Rice Burners. In fact, yes, I'm a fan of these cars so, yes, I'm a Ricer and proud of it. You nancy muscle car boys want to call me names, go ahead. I don't give a shit. Just don't cry when I wax you at the lights.

I'm also of the opinion that if you don't have the performance to back up the looks, don't bother. I don't remember offering an opinion about this originally so why are you attacking me about sharing your opinion on this matter...?

Right now, you really don't read much of this forum. I believe FF cars suck. They can handle up to a point but they will never have the feel, capability or adjustability of an FR car. Oh, I've never heard of these idiots who put LS1s in RX-7 chassis, but all I can say is, they are idiots. The 13B has potential for 6 second quarters in a full drag car. I hate drags so personally, I'd be building a circuit car, so why put a stupid great lump of iron up the front of such a well balanced car? Answer: Making a nice Japanese car handle like an American 101. Don't know where you gut success from, but the numbers had better be damn impressive. I takes the point out of owning an RX-7 though. You buy an RX-7 for the Rotary. That's it's unique character. You want a V8? Buy a Corvette.

One thing I find about your post, is that you keep referring to my Prelude as though it is my dream car. It's not. It's my transportation. It's also enjoyable enough to put a massive smile on my face every time I drive it. The modded supension and exhaust are responsible for this. The only reason I own an FF car, is because it was the best car in my price bracket.

Now, lets talk dream cars. You like the Mustang, obviously. I'm a GT-R fan. Now lets talk putting 400bhp through the two of them. Hmm, if you are on this forum I shouldn't have to explain the rest. While the Mustang is busy vaporising it's tyres, the GT-R has shot off into the distance. Don't say anything American could ever out-handle a GT-R either. If you do, you know you'll be laughed off the forum.

It also seems that you are not fully up with why FF is inferior to the other platforms. The main problem is weight shifting. As you accelerate, weight transferrs to the rear of the car, reducing traction at the front. This causes the front wheels to slip under corner exit and understeer is the result. Torque steer is also the other major problem. So, the more power you have in an FF car, the more exaggerated the weight shifting problem is, and the more torque steer you have.

Read my post again, I never said American cars were slow. We all know American cars go very quickly in a straight line. Sure they're inexpensive, but as always, you pay for what you get. A big engine with a 19th century oxen cart around it.

Never take me as an FF fan. You do not need to explain dynamics to me. Never treat me as though I'm stupid either. I will burn you. I'm no fanboy. I'm very well balanced. When a good car comes out of America, I will praise it. The new Corvette Z06 seems like it may be good. Again, as usual, the quality will let it down.

Funnily enough, in your post, you failed to mention one good quality American car. I'd like to hear what you think is a good quality car.
 
This thread is hilarious. I wish I had the time to reply, much less read all this tripe.

For me, FF, you lost all credibility when you say that American cars are built worse than anywhere else in the world. I dont even need to read past that. :bangin:
 
flyingfridge said:
OK, firstly I'd like to address your accusation of the 'Nissan Fanboy'. If I was a Nissan Fanboy, I'd have made minimum 20 references to Nissan already on this thread. I'd also have complete disrespect for anything that may be a rival to Nissan, such as the RX-7, RX-8, 911, NSX etc... Interestingly, I regard the RX-7 as one of the greatest sports cars of all time, and I shouldn't have to explain the carnal attraction I seem to have to the 911 if I hang around on this forum.

In truth, I should have edited that to read "JDM fanboy", but the point is moot. The thing is, you spent your entire post bashing every single American car ever built, using nothing but your wanton opinions and zero concrete evidence. Now that you're posting relevent information, I can treat you as an equal. That's how debates work.

You seem to be quick to the point there and ready to shoot me down. Sure, I'm opinionated, but opinions aren't formed from nothing. My opinion of American cars was formed over experience (my old man was a car dealer) so I've seen plenty. None of which have been any good. I'll stand by what I said in my last post. On average, American cars are the worst built in the world. I've had experiences in Ladas too, including one very memorable four wheel driving trip in a Niva.

Of course you're opinionated. I'm opinionated. We're all opinionated. If people didn't stand by their opinions, there wouldn't be much debate, would there?
Either way, I find it rather hard to believe that every single last American car has been a bad experience for you. As well, you seem to have reduced your original statement to "On average, American cars are the worst built in the world", which is a far cry from saying that every last car built outside of America is better than every last car built inside America.

Even if you still think that, I challenge you to go drive some Korean cars, especially from Kia. They're terrible. The older Hyundai Accent is terrible as well. They're getting better, but Korean cars still have a long way to go.

While I'm on the subject, have you seen the Chinese cars, the LandWinds? If the crash test videos are anything to go by, they could quite possibly be the worst-built cars of all time. Heck, they make a Pinto look like a tank. :lol:

The Viper may be built better than my Prelude, but then, the Viper is being built in 2005, my Prelude was built in 1990. That's a 15 year age gap. 15 years is a long time for progression. That's not comparing apples to apples. Here's a challenging challenge: Can you name an American car from the same era that was better built? Don't say the old Viper was better either. I have seen old Vipers up nice close and personal, and no, they weren't better built than my Prelude. They weren't from the same era either. They were newer.

My comparison was intentionally off-base in response to your comment that ANY non-American car is better than ANY American car. If you want a logical comparison, make a logical statement.

You really ought to read the thread better dumbass. If you looked, you'd see 94Camaro also used F&F in his argument. Now, if I'm going to counter argue, I have to refer to his statement. F&F is not a credible movie. The cars are gaudy and wank (even the Skyline was overdone).

I'm talking to you, not 94Camaro. I couldn't really care less what he says, I'm debating with you. You asked what the problem with "Ricers" was, and I told you. Saying that F&F created Ricers, and that it was a good thing, seemed kinda strange, but your next statement explains why.

The terminology 'Ricer' comes from the term 'Rice Burner' which was originally a derogatory term for Rotary cars because of the funny sound. It then made it's way to all Japanese performance cars. A Ricer is any Japanese performance car. Yes Skylines, Supras and RX-7s are all Rice Burners. In fact, yes, I'm a fan of these cars so, yes, I'm a Ricer and proud of it. You nancy muscle car boys want to call me names, go ahead. I don't give a shit. Just don't cry when I wax you at the lights.

You are not a Ricer. Your car is not rice. You are an Import Enthusiast, not a RICER. Ricers are the pathetic individuals who put giant fart cans and ugly wings on their hand-me-down Civics, and other gutless economy cars, without improving performance in any substantial manner other than a CAI. Skylines, Supras, RX7's, and the like are NOT RICE. They are very nice sports cars that should never be lumped in with the ricer trash. Ricers get laughed at, Import Enthusiasts are given respect. I never, ever said I dislike import sports cars. Far from it, I love them. Your Prelude, while not being the most high-performance of cars, is quite a fun car to drive, and your picture shows that it's tasefully done; No underglow, no bodykit, no GT wing. Once again, it is NOT RICE.

I'm also of the opinion that if you don't have the performance to back up the looks, don't bother. I don't remember offering an opinion about this originally so why are you attacking me about sharing your opinion on this matter...?

I believe that was due to our differing idea if what Rice is. In Canada, Rice is a 100% derogatory term for cars with excessive (and usually tasteless) exterior modifications, with no performance. It's gotten to the point where not just imports are affected; I've seen Mustangs and Camaros that could be classified as Rice. It's more common than you think.

Oh, I've never heard of these idiots who put LS1s in RX-7 chassis, but all I can say is, they are idiots. The 13B has potential for 6 second quarters in a full drag car. I hate drags so personally, I'd be building a circuit car, so why put a stupid great lump of iron up the front of such a well balanced car? Answer: Making a nice Japanese car handle like an American 101. Don't know where you gut success from, but the numbers had better be damn impressive. I takes the point out of owning an RX-7 though. You buy an RX-7 for the Rotary. That's it's unique character. You want a V8? Buy a Corvette.

While the LS1 may be a rather low-tech pushrod V8, there's always a reason for swapping out a powerplant. To call it a "great lump of iron" is a rather ininformed statement, as a fully-accessorized LS1 weighs a mere 390 lbs, due to its all-aluminum construction. The 13B weighs 350lbs, without turbocharger. Thus, the two engines end up weighing almost exactly the same. In bone stock form, the LS1 makes 310-350hp(depending on tune) and 340 ft/lbs of torque, a far cry from the TT 13B's 255HP and 217ft/lbs of torque. If you want to modify these engines, the LS1 is easily modifed for great amounts fo power in naturally aspirated form, while the 13B generally needs bigger (and therfore heavier) turbocharger setups, and also has that unfortunate habit of blowing apex seals.

In short, the LS1 weighs the same, doesn't affect handling, responds extremely well to modifications, and is much more reliable than the rotary engine at high performance levels. I consider the LS1 RX7's to be a kind of "best of both worlds"; Cheap American power mated with lightweight Japanese handling.

One thing I find about your post, is that you keep referring to my Prelude as though it is my dream car. It's not. It's my transportation. It's also enjoyable enough to put a massive smile on my face every time I drive it. The modded supension and exhaust are responsible for this. The only reason I own an FF car, is because it was the best car in my price bracket.

I refer to your Prelude so you can have a frame of reference. The discussion would be a lot more ambiguous if I kept reffering to nebulous statistics of cars we've never driven, so I figured it'd be easier for the both of us if I used something you were familiar with.

Now, lets talk dream cars. You like the Mustang, obviously. I'm a GT-R fan. Now lets talk putting 400bhp through the two of them. Hmm, if you are on this forum I shouldn't have to explain the rest. While the Mustang is busy vaporising it's tyres, the GT-R has shot off into the distance. Don't say anything American could ever out-handle a GT-R either. If you do, you know you'll be laughed off the forum.

No, no. A Mustang to me is in the same bracket as your Prelude: Affordable fun. Mustangs are extremely cheap here, and nowhere even close to the price bracket of a GT-R. I'm assuming you're referring to the R34 GT-R (The R33 was a bit lackluster, IMO).
To buy a street-legal R34 in Canada would cost (let me check the now-defunct Motorex) ~$90,000 US, or $105,580 CAD. For that same price what would dream car would I buy? Let me see, I'll try to keep the years similar, if not the same.

For that whopping price, I would go for a 1999 Viper GTR ACR. The ACR package added a better exhaust, a better intake, and 5-point harnesses, for a grand total of $84,000 BRAND NEW. The price has obviously dropped since then, it's probably hovering around $70,000.

So, for about the same price, the Viper has 184 more HP than the GT-R, 284 more ft/lbs of torque than the GT-R, does 0-60 a full 1.2 seconds quicker than the GT-R, has a top speed 37MPH faster than the GT-R, does the 1/4 mile 1.7 seconds faster than the GT-R, pulls .10 more G's on the skidpad, and is 4.3MPH faster through the slalom.

It's quicker, faster, and turns better. It's a superior car to the Skyline, and it's American.

It also seems that you are not fully up with why FF is inferior to the other platforms. The main problem is weight shifting. As you accelerate, weight transferrs to the rear of the car, reducing traction at the front. This causes the front wheels to slip under corner exit and understeer is the result. Torque steer is also the other major problem. So, the more power you have in an FF car, the more exaggerated the weight shifting problem is, and the more torque steer you have.

True, those are all other aspects of FF inferiority. I was only providing one example.

Read my post again, I never said American cars were slow. We all know American cars go very quickly in a straight line. Sure they're inexpensive, but as always, you pay for what you get. A big engine with a 19th century oxen cart around it.

Remember my Viper vs Skyline comparison? The oxcart is still quicker, no matter what you do with it.

Never take me as an FF fan. You do not need to explain dynamics to me. Never treat me as though I'm stupid either. I will burn you. I'm no fanboy. I'm very well balanced. When a good car comes out of America, I will praise it. The new Corvette Z06 seems like it may be good. Again, as usual, the quality will let it down.

I'll not treat you as stupid if your posts have merit. This post was infintely better than your first one, which was mostly baseless opinion. No, you won't "burn" me. You can try, but you won't. You may have an intelligent discussion with me, but you have to prove you can debate first. You've improved, but you need more facts and less opinions in your posts. Numbers help, as well.

All in all, I'm left wondering how you'll decide what a good American car is. Have you driven a Corvette? A Mustang? A Viper? Please tell me you don't just read reviews and listen to Mr. Jeremy Clarkson.

Funnily enough, in your post, you failed to mention one good quality American car. I'd like to hear what you think is a good quality car.

Ok, then. A newer Viper is a good, quality car. So is a 5th or 6th-gen Corvette. Lincoln Aviators are extremely well-made. Jeeps and H1 Hummers can take a pounding, which means qulity construction. Ford F350 Harley-Davidson trucks are very, very nice. All these vehicles (and there are many more) are high quality, and generally cheaper than their foreign counterparts.
 
CatSplat: You can't quote a skidpad number! On this forum, that has no bearing on how the car actually handles. :lol:

DJ: The answer to your question? Differing tastes, established names in a market (we dont have the Ford Falcon here in the US, but its a staple in Australia and NZ), and distribution - selling the Mustang at large in other markets would really require building an assembly line there. Lot of risk involved there.

Something I wanted to ask earlier, but I was at work...

Flying Fridge said:
American cars are the worst built in the world. Even America's own car industry will acknowledge that on a very very very quiet level. A lot of industry high ups are busy asking WTF at the moment.

How do you KNOW this? Are you some sort of auto industry super spy? :lol:

One more time, for good measure. :lol:

The simple fact is, you can throw a stick in any direction and find someone who has had bad experience with *any* make of car - domestic OR foriegn, and at every price level too.

So really, please stop with the uninformed generalizations.
 
orly.gif
 
94Camaro said:
For the past 3 years, Cadillac has sold more lucury cars than anyone else, including Lexus and BMW.

According to J.D Power, GM was the number 1 multi-line manufacturer in sales satisfaction last year. Toyota and Lexus were in 7th place.

Cadillac out sold anyone in luxary cars? (bmw, lexus, mercedes, ect.)
really? wow thes pretty surprising because at least here for evey caddy i see yes including those popular escalades) i see at least two mercedes or bmws. In fact, i hardly see any caddy except for the escalades and a few cts and devilles here and there. While at the same time i see tons of 3 series and even more X5s. not saying that ur wrong, but just surprising.

and J.D. Power also ranked Hyundai best in initial quality..soo i dunno, they are a reliable source, but it makes me kinda wonder...


also, i just skimmed some other post about the ACR Viper vs the R34 GTR....its not fair to compare a car thats not sold in the country. First off, i dont think they make the ACR anymore (correct me if wrong)...and stating a used one is even more unfair. In the same respect then i can say the viper sucks compared to the GTR because in japan it would cost a lot of freaking money compared to a used GTR (R32) for under 30K and save the rest for tuning or whatever.

however two car i always like to compare is the mitsubishi evos (~280hp model that goes for ~30K) against many of the american rivals. its faster then a mustang handling wise (and acceleration, not sure too lazy to look it up :p). Its definately faster then the 400hp GTO (top gear test...regular evo 8 (1.28.9) vs VXR (1.30.16). It is slower then the vette (1.26.8 ) but then the vette costs aound 20k more. The viper (1.28.5) is faster, but much, much more expensive.
 
p0w3r said:
also, i just skimmed some other post about the ACR Viper vs the R34 GTR....its not fair to compare a car thats not sold in the country. First off, i dont think they make the ACR anymore (correct me if wrong)...and stating a used one is even more unfair. In the same respect then i can say the viper sucks compared to the GTR because in japan it would cost a lot of freaking money compared to a used GTR (R32) for under 30K and save the rest for tuning or whatever.

Well, I think you misread my post a bit. I used the "new" prices for comparison, and the "New" price of the ACR was still lower then the price of the "New" Skyline. No, they don't still make the ACR. They don't still make the R34 Skyline, either. (I'm not counting the G35, it's an Infiniti here.) Flyingfridge wanted me to make a comparison of dream cars, so I compared his dream car (R34 GT-R) against one of mine. Sure, I could have chosen a less expensive car and used the leftover cash to "mod" it, but that would just muddy the waters of the straight-up comparison. I mean, heck, for the price of the R34, I could make a Mustang handle like a Lotus. But that's just not the point here.

That being said, if I were to do it all over again... I think I'd have used the new Z06 Corvette. I just read the stats for it, and WOW. It's got some serious potential!
 
BerserkerCatSplat said:
flyingfridge said:
I'm talking to you, not 94Camaro. I couldn't really care less what he says, I'm debating with you. You asked what the problem with "Ricers" was, and I told you. Saying that F&F created Ricers, and that it was a good thing....
Explain why it is a good thing for ricers to be created in any way for any reason? It is an excuse for degenerates, losers, and idiots to get together and think they are better than they are because of what they drive, while what they drive are turds with neon lights on it.

Flying Fridge, a lot of people get confused with the actual definition of "ricer", I can see why you were agitated by me using that word, but you misunderstood it's use because you weren't framiliar with the more commonly known definition. If you think Supras are rice, you are out of your mind. A Supra is basically a god damn Import Muscle Car.

It seems there are a lot of misinformed people on this board. Some of which have a silver spoon so far up their asses, they can't possibly see different points of view, or believe anything differently than what they've come to know.

p0w3r said:
94Camaro said:
For the past 3 years, Cadillac has sold more lucury cars than anyone else, including Lexus and BMW.

According to J.D Power, GM was the number 1 multi-line manufacturer in sales satisfaction last year. Toyota and Lexus were in 7th place.

Cadillac out sold anyone in luxary cars? (bmw, lexus, mercedes, ect.)
really? wow thes pretty surprising because at least here for evey caddy i see yes including those popular escalades) i see at least two mercedes or bmws. In fact, i hardly see any caddy except for the escalades and a few cts and devilles here and there. While at the same time i see tons of 3 series and even more X5s. not saying that ur wrong, but just surprising.

and J.D. Power also ranked Hyundai best in initial quality..soo i dunno, they are a reliable source, but it makes me kinda wonder...

Yea, that's why I posted it, it is surprising. Even I wouldn't have thought it outsold both. My mom has an BMW X3.

All of my facts were somewhat surprising because GM sucks hard when it comes to advertising. They hardly advertise just how good of quality a lot of their cars actually are. But I guess not advertising very much is better than advertising yourself as better than you are, like some car companies do.

And I didn't know that about Hyundai. Hmmm... :huh: But the fact about selling more luxury cars was not from J.D. Power, I don't think. It was from an article.

however two car i always like to compare is the mitsubishi evos.

I actually like the EVO. There's been this one EVO in several videos that's beaten a bunch of really good cars. I think it's an EVO IV or something. I can't remember, haven't seen any videos of it in a while.

BerserkerCatSplat said:
That being said, if I were to do it all over again... I think I'd have used the new Z06 Corvette. I just read the stats for it, and WOW. It's got some serious potential!

I don't know if you've read these stats, but the new Z06 beat out all stats against the Ford GT! Which costs $100,000 more :lol: .
 
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