Clarkson bashing the Mustang

Two seperate things going on in this thread though. One segment of people think American cars are "mediocre", because they can apparently afford an AM Vantage. Well, to you sir, we must all seem like lowly car slobs. Perhaps some day I too can take a break from shopping for expensive cars and have a slapfight on the internet with a teenage kid. :roll:

To the other segment, the "all american cars are teh SUCK and Euroop RULES!!!11!" segment, the one that apparently "knows what the industry is saying" (still havent heard HOW), well, your OPINION is just that. You bother me the most, because you have some impression that a car built on an assembly line somewhere besides America HAS to be better - too many examples of that not being true. I really think if you look at it globally, it will average out. Google is your friend!

One thing is for sure, I am glad Berserker is on my side. :D

BTW, I'd love to know what is on your 35 year old 240Z, Draci. I have always liked the Z cars, but...what's on that thing? You make some pretty big claims.
 
The American Cars are crap argument has been done 1000 times, and 1000 times again. Once again as usual the Americans are arguing that their cars are uber and non-Americans aren't thinking the same way.

The fundamental difference between Americans and the rest of the world is exactly as Clarkson describes it in the article that this thread is apparrently about. Americans are brought up on American cars, while Europeans, Australians and the Japanese are brought up on cars from Europe and Japan. Boil it down, and you see that because Americans are brought up on American cars, your benchmarks are lower than ours. Simple as that. I'm not saying we're better in any way. I'm saying we're used to a higher quality experience, and we're happy to pay for a high quality car. Don't agree with me? Take a trip to Europe and have a look at the bread-and-butter car that average joe drives in Europe, such as the Astra or the Golf, then compare it to the bread-and-butter car of America. You'll see our point. I'm not talking about things like performance here. This argument is about quality. I've never said that America can't build a fine engine. Look at the Chevy small block, and without the Mustang engine, the world economy would fall apart (OK, maybe not but it's one of the cornerstones of the world car industry.) The 'stang engine has dones some extraordinary things, not least holding the World Proddy Car Speed Record while nestled in the bay of a Koenigsegg. The Rover V8 that practically ran the British industry was an American design.

The statement about Americans building the WORST cars in the world is maybe a bit harsh, we'll just aim that at things like the Taurus, Caprice most SUVs and Pickup Trucks. The CTS seems like a nice thing, unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to look one over nice and close (They aren't sold over here) so I can't make judgement. I'd still have my usual American car reservations about it though with regards to fit and finish, and plastics quality. Like I've said before, when America makes a good car, I will praise it. The CTS seems to indicate that day is getting closer. The 300C which is about to go on sale here is a nice thing. Everyone knows about the looks, of course on paper, given equipment pricing etc. it's a good proposition, but I still wouldn't have one over the equivalent Ford or Holden Aussie product because the interior plastics are cheap, the fit and finish is rather loose.

As a parting remark, I'll say this. The MkI Ford Focus was built in two places. The USA and Germany. It was built to the same specification in both plants to the same plans. The USA one was sold in North America, the German one, the rest of the World, including down here in Aus. The American Focus over it's lifespan came back to the factory for a massive 12 major recalls and 5 defect investigations, including:
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: - 00V302000 Component: - VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL:CABLES said:
Defective Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH SPEED CONTROL AND AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION. A SPEED CONTROL CABLE COULD HAVE A CORE WIRE THAT IS LONG ENOUGH TO CATCH ON THE SLEEVE AT THE THROTTLE BODY END OF THE CABLE DURING WIDE-OPEN THROTTLE ACCELERATION.
Conequence Defect:
A THROTTLE THAT DOES NOT RETURN TO IDLE COULD RESULT IN REDUCED VEHICLE CONTROL AND, POTENTIALLY, A VEHICLE CRASH.
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: - 00V303000 Component: - WHEELS:LUGS/NUTS/BOLTS said:
Defective Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER VEHICLES. THE REAR WHEEL HUB RETAINING NUTS CAN LOOSEN AND ALLOW THE LEFT REAR WHEEL AND BRAKE DRUM ASSEMBLY TO SEPARATE FROM THE VEHICLE.

Other problems included engine fires from a faulty fuel line, trim falling off, brakes failing, major electrical glitches, the steering wheel falling off, and suspension problems.

12 recalls is in fact second only to the Chevy Citation which scored 13.

The German built Focus did, of course suffer from some recall issues, none were as high profile as its American counterpart. In 2002, according to German reports and surveys, the German Focus was claimed to be the most reliable car between 1 to 3 years old on the German car market. This was a remarkable feat as the Focus was competing against German prestige manufacturers as well as Japanese manufacturers, all of which have strong reputations for quality and reliability.

You guys, Catsplat and qtrietsc, need to expand your horizons and taste non-American motoring properly before you argue with us.

In the mean time, I'll keep waiting, so that when a good car comes out of America, I will praise it.
 
94Camaro said:
Yuo say I am changing my position, yet you completely ignore it when I adress the fact that you did just that in your posts. How many times can you do it? Uh Oh, look he's doing it again....Now he says he's an American car enthusiast.

How can I directly reply to your post when it is just as ridiculous and illogical as your car purchse of a V6 Camaro? (engine out of an economy sedan)
Just because I can acknowledge the flaws and weaknesses of American cars doesn't mean I am not an enthusiast. If you know how many cars I've driven, you'd be surprised how naive you are.

94Camaro said:
If you've read my posts, you'd know only a few pages earlier I talked about a few foreign cars I liked and have driven. Yet you have named none, and now claim yourself to be an American car enthusiast. Wow! Just how many times can you flip flop around. I asked you if you've ever heard of consistency, and apparently you haven't, because you ignored the entire paragraph like you didn't know the meaning of the word.

Hey, if I began listing all the non-American cars I'd like to have
we'll have a list of hundreds of cars. You are in the minority that believes American cars are so great. And you still haven't given us an arguement to support your position.

94Camaro said:
Seeing as how you can't seem to remember what you post, I'll help you out. I mentioned Integras a few times because you, once again, brought them up. You claimed you'd known people that couldn't stand the fact that Integras were better built than their Z28's and that they sold them for Integras :lol: . Ring a bell now?

I should ring a bell in your head by bashing it in with a hammer. I think you were just overreacting because you know that Integras are better engineered cars than Camaros. You went about saying how a Camaro can accelerate faster. So what? The Camaro fails miserably at everything else it attempts. If the Camaro is so wonderful as you say it is, wouldn't it do other things than accelerate fast? (like staying intact after hitting a speed bump)

94Camaro said:
If you think being under 25 is a teenager and $5,000 for a V6 Camaro (I overpaid for many reasons, low miles, rebuilt tranny, mods,etc.) and having put $3k into it is too expensive for me, well then, I don't know what to tell you because it's honestly my word alone, I was helped by my dad buying the car originally but paid him back all of it. The car says my name all over it. It belongs to me.

That is almost the same amount of money I've spent on my 240Z. Yet still my little Japanese car is better than your little pony because it can do more than 12 second quarter mile dashes. For those curious, my car has no aftermarket performance parts. Everything is swapped for stock components from other cars. If I did use full aftermarket parts, the power would have been a bit too much for public roads. Are you beginning to see how potent these little things are?
Acceleration figures on my car are a few tenths faster than the Z28's of your year. Considering you "never race" and probably can't shift worth crap, my car would easier be over 1 second faster than a Z28 at your hands. If yours is a V6, you might as well forfit to save yourself the embarassment of being beaten by a 35 year old car with a dealer sticker price of $3500 NEW.
Many Z car enthusiasts have pushed the power over 500hp and sometimes over 600hp on a stock engine block--based on a 60's 2.0 litre unit. Mine doesn't have that much power because I'm not looking for 11-second quarter mile times. You can bet I have about half that . . . in a 2300lbs car.

94Camaro said:
I don't race because there is no track near here and racing public is dangerous for the drivers and the other people, that's ricerific to race on the street.

There are no race tracks near you?
You must be living in a cave with your other primitive friends.
Ever heard of Perris? Probably not because you are too scared to race.
There also used to be the Cajon Speedway too. There are many race tracks in Southern California.

I think you're missing the whole point of racing. Racing is all about being scared and overcoming your fears to go faster. It's not for pussies like you who worry about getting hurt or dying. I've never once raced a car assuming I'd finish the race alive. It's the price of admission all racers pay in order to win. And that thrill is why you get addicted to it.

94Camaro said:
And once again, the fact that you are an enthusiast of American Cars, while you have bashed American cars and every American car name thrown at you, is a revelation to us all. LOL it's just too funny, I can't get over it. I mean am I reading this right? Or does he just get worse every post?

It's like saying I think girls with a bird beak nose and missing teeth is ugly and flawed. It doesn't automatically mean that I hate every single girl in the world because I made that comment. Your mental capacity won't allow you to understand my analogy, but at least other people on the forum can comprehend it.

94Camaro said:
This time, if you want to reply, address me on where I call you out, you pansy. Don't ignore the posts where I point out your unbelievable ability to contradict yourself. "That's what little girls do"...There's only one teenager here. Comeon defend yourself, it's pathetic. Oh no, I'm sorry, you have to win this argument, so you can't draw attention to that. :oops: Good luck with that.

Don't continue to ignore my question: Why do you continue to insist that you love Oprah and you want to marry her? Most women in the world make her look like a beast in appearance. Of course, your standards aren't high enough to know that. You still would consider something so mediocre as good and perfect.


I already said that "I am a testosterone filled, over-confident, ego-maniac." I'm just a 22 year old who was born into a good family that loved cars. So naturally, I drove many cars and raced. Plus, I have associates in the car industry itself and those who get to drive every single new car on the market (like Jeremy and the Top Gear crew). My opinion that American cars are mediocre is shared by the majority of those in the industry. So naturally, my opinion is stronger than any youngster in a Camaro who believes otherwise. Don't you think so?

I can tell you that any American that have driven a good foreign car can never go back to American cars. Not too many American cars can touch the detailed engineering of a good European or Japanese product.

Reminds me of how Americans think Danika Patrick is the hottest woman in the world. I don't think she's ugly, but she is borderline between average and ugly. Why do I think that? My standards for women is higher than most Americans. I've turned down hotter looking women that that! Same with cars.
 
gtrietsc said:
Two seperate things going on in this thread though. One segment of people think American cars are "mediocre", because they can apparently afford an AM Vantage. Well, to you sir, we must all seem like lowly car slobs. Perhaps some day I too can take a break from shopping for expensive cars and have a slapfight on the internet with a teenage kid. :roll:

Hey, I've farted out a few hundred bucks just slapping around the teenage kid so far! Imagine that! It's like getting paid to make somebody look like a fool. I bet he's not getting paid for the time he's wasting here.

I think you also support my side here. You just said that those who would consider an AM look at others as lowly car slobs. That's exactly my point. There are car makers outside the US that make cars that are far more refined and better engineered. Of course cheap cars are crudely engineered and less refined! That's the whole effing point of my posts!

American cars are generally not great because they are cheaply made and underengineered for their intended purpose. How the hell can you argue against that? What I hear are people saying how great American muscle is for no reason (they gave none).

Why the hell would I even consider some cheap American sports car (Camaro, Mustang, Cougar, SRT/4, etc.) when I can get something engineered to higher standards? Many of my fellow Americans seem to agree with me here as well. You see many people in this country driving around in Ferraris, Porsches, and other foreign made automobiles. (edit: I forgot to mention cheaper alternatives like the Lotus Elise, Mitsu LanEvo, Subaru WRX, etc. which are all still far better engineered than similarly priced American alternatives) I'm sure they have a classic muscle car in their garage, but purely for aesthetic or nostalgic reasons.

I've also said that American car companies are going down in shambles, but nobody even bothered to reply to that comment. You already know full well that those "Employee Discount" deals were implemented to immediately increase sales so that an inevitable crash in stock prices could be avoided. If they are taking this much cut in profits just to stay above water, you know they are doing something wrong. It's already a problem when a vast number of Americans buy cars from foreign companies.

You guys that are "GO! AMERICAN CARS! YEAH!" have no idea how stupid you look here.
 
FATMOUSE said:
Clarification. The Koenigsegg uses an engine derived from a Mustang? :shock: :?

Yep, supercharged Mustang V8. It's modded to the point where it's not really a Mustang V8 anymore, but it is a Mustang V8.
 
I think he was rather nice about the Mustang. Did he write the article before he got the GT40? hehehe
Everybody knows that cars are cheaper over here, but, then again, you do not get a fraction of the quality you get in good old Europa.
There is just no imagination or creativity over here! How exciting can watching cars go around a circle or go on the quarter mile run be? Only a redneck can understand that..
The american idea of luxury is size! We see it in cars, homes, etc...
 
And NO.

The engine in the Koenigsegg is a Cosworth based on the F1 engines.

You should really do your homework before claiming things that aint what you think they are.

It's not a Mustang it's build from the blueprints of the COSWORTH engine that was very great in the V8 era of F1.

They done alot of modifications to that engine.
Ford owns Cosworth yes but it aint the same as in the Mustang.
NOT EVEN close.
 
ME.

Cause I seen the swedish Motorjournalen where they INTERVIEW the Owner and founder of koenigsegg and there he even unlocks a safe and take out the original BLUE prints they bought from Cosworth.
 
Z Draci said:
Hey, I've farted out a few hundred bucks just slapping around the teenage kid so far! Imagine that! It's like getting paid to make somebody look like a fool. I bet he's not getting paid for the time he's wasting here.

I think you also support my side here. You just said that those who would consider an AM look at others as lowly car slobs. That's exactly my point. There are car makers outside the US that make cars that are far more refined and better engineered. Of course cheap cars are crudely engineered and less refined! That's the whole effing point of my posts!

American cars are generally not great because they are cheaply made and underengineered for their intended purpose. How the hell can you argue against that? What I hear are people saying how great American muscle is for no reason (they gave none).

Why the hell would I even consider some cheap American sports car (Camaro, Mustang, Cougar, SRT/4, etc.) when I can get something engineered to higher standards? Many of my fellow Americans seem to agree with me here as well. You see many people in this country driving around in Ferraris, Porsches, and other foreign made automobiles. (edit: I forgot to mention cheaper alternatives like the Lotus Elise, Mitsu LanEvo, Subaru WRX, etc. which are all still far better engineered than similarly priced American alternatives) I'm sure they have a classic muscle car in their garage, but purely for aesthetic or nostalgic reasons.

I've also said that American car companies are going down in shambles, but nobody even bothered to reply to that comment. You already know full well that those "Employee Discount" deals were implemented to immediately increase sales so that an inevitable crash in stock prices could be avoided. If they are taking this much cut in profits just to stay above water, you know they are doing something wrong. It's already a problem when a vast number of Americans buy cars from foreign companies.

You guys that are "GO! AMERICAN CARS! YEAH!" have no idea how stupid you look here.

Y'know, I guess I should make it clear - I am not the "American cars are #1! AMERICUH, FUCK YEAH!" segment - we do make some crappy cars. My point all along has been that we also make some great cars, and just because a Mustang doesn't have the lines or build quality of say, an Aston, shouldn't surprise anyone. I am just saying that every other country contributes more than their share of crap too. For the most part, Japan makes some quality automobiles - but I reject the statement that "I have been brought up on American cars" because most of the vehicles my family owned while I was growing up were Honda. And yes, they had their share of AC problem, CV joint problems, ELECTRICAL problems, etc.

BTW, asking who would rather buy a Mustang or SRT-4 when they could be driving around in Porsches or Ferraris makes you look *really* out of touch with the average American. But I see you live in Cali, so no big surprise there. :D

Absolutely the Focus had quality problems when it was launched here. But that can happen to any car. Hell, I wouldn't buy an Audi or VW to this day because of all the problems they have. There used to be a website belonging to a guy in the Dallas area called www.myaudittsucks.com - it doesnt come up anymore - but he had a long, documented history of all the shitty quality there. Do a Google for anything really, you'll find

- http://myvwlemon.com

- http://www.mycarstats.com/Auto_Complaints/Auto_Complaints.asp
(I dont know where they get their reports, but interesting nonetheless)

- too many to list

My question is - do you think that a new car selling for say, $12k USD, is built in the US versus the UK, or Germany, that the quality would be measurably better if built outside the US? If so, why?

I also wanted to say that while its great to get a good deal on a car, the "Employee Pricing" will come back to haunt the Big Three. People come to expect a deal like that after a while. In fairness though, GM has said that the number one thing threatening their future is increasing healthcare costs and pensions - which companies outside the US do not have to deal with. And that is all Americans fault, but thats also another discussion altogether.
 
FATMOUSE said:
Clarification. The Koenigsegg uses an engine derived from a Mustang? :shock: :?
not exactly. its got a Ford Racing derived engine that Koenigsegg tuned completely. that particular engine may have been in a racing 'stang at some point or other though :?
 
Z Draci said:
Reminds me of how Americans think Danika Patrick is the hottest woman in the world. I don't think she's ugly, but she is borderline between average and ugly. Why do I think that? My standards for women is higher than most Americans. I've turned down hotter looking women that that! Same with cars.
I'm sorry, but that's just a mind-bogglingly idiotic statement right there. You've paused in your generalizing of the automotive tastes of the American public to generalize about the feminine tastes of the American public. What's with your constant analogy of cars to ugly women? Do you think your fellow Americans are really that stupid? Apparently so, even though you were offended at that mere thought a page ago.

We really don't care that you feel the need to brag about your ability to attract supermodels.

It's a shame, too, because I love your car. And I can't believe that 94Camaro doesn't know about any racetracks in SoCal. Aren't you guys whiffing the exhaust from Infineon and Laguna Seca?

And OT, but have you gotten those graphite wheels for your 240Z yet?
 
It sure comes off like "uppity prick", doesn't it? Or am I just reading it wrong? Who doesn't like hot women or supercars?

:bangin:
 
flyingfridge said:
Once again as usual the Americans are arguing that their cars are uber and non-Americans aren't thinking the same way.

I have yet to a read a single post in this thread that says that American cars are "uber."
All we're trying to get at is that they're not as terrible as you make them out to be.

Take a trip to Europe and have a look at the bread-and-butter car that average joe drives in Europe, such as the Astra or the Golf, then compare it to the bread-and-butter car of America. You'll see our point. I'm not talking about things like performance here. This argument is about quality.

Done and done. Two summers ago, I took a vacation in England, and while I was there I rented a manual Vectra. I rather regretted it by the end of the trip. The ride was quite harsh, the seats were uncomfortable, and the interior looked like someone had painted it using nothing but black spraypaint. Black plastic, black buttons, black everything. The plastic looked about the same as the plastic you'd find in a Neon, except it was slightly shinier. I attribute that to Armour All. The gearbox was OK, if not a bit chunky, and the engine was typical vanillla economy affair.

All in all, I would have much rather rented a Focus. Being in a Focus is just so much nicer. The differences between European and American cars gets less every day. Vauxhall is GM, Ford is Ford (obviously) and most of the high-end brands are owned by American companies.

However, you said to leave "performance" out of the comparison, and I have done so. However, in asking that, you've shown why you're just not getting our point. North Americans buy cheaper cars with less expensive technology because most of us enjoy having fun driving with a more powerful car over having one made of expensive plastics. If I'm driving a car, I'm driving, with my eyes on the road. I'm not inspecting my center console for how thick the plastic is, because I don't care. we don't buy cheaper, faster cars because we don't have an eye or taste for quality - we buy them so we can have fun driving, and we'll have enough money left over for a nice leather couch and a bigscreen TV for the house, for when we actually give a damn about our static surroundings.

You guys, Catsplat and qtrietsc, need to expand your horizons and taste non-American motoring properly before you argue with us.

In the mean time, I'll keep waiting, so that when a good car comes out of America, I will praise it.

I have, as stated before, so I would really recommend you cease to make assumptions about what I have or haven't driven. I've driven cars from every corner of the globe, short of Australia.


You may have missed my post a couple pages back, where I used some concrete numbers about a"good" car.
 
The whole point of my women and car arguement is to make clear to you dumbasses how much you're praising mediocrisy! I am not trying to make a statement about myself as much as I'm trying to make one against you.
In saying that American cars aren't bad is the same as saying a deformed girl isn't bad.
There are better girls than deformed ones. There are better cars than American ones.
You guys are trying to over-analyse a very simple concept.
I continue to ask why an ugly girl is so appealling over a beautiful one. (Why a mediocre car is more appealling than a well engineered one.) Nobody has even address this yet. You're too hung up on the emotional aspects of this analogy. Stop with the emotional personal responses and stick with the arguement.


"Two summers ago, I took a vacation in England, and while I was there I rented a manual Vectra."
Try going to Germany and renting a Porsche. At the level you are on, I'm not surprised that you think American cars aren't bad.
A Vectra!?!?! You gotta be kidding me . . . :lol:

[graphite wheels are STILL on backorder]
 
So, are you asking us to admit that expensive sports cars are desirable? Did we say they weren't?

OK then - YES, I'd rather drive a DB9 than a Ford Focus. Happy?

Exactly what thread are you responding to, at this point????

:bangin:
 
Z Draci said:
I continue to ask why an ugly girl is so appealling over a beautiful one. (Why a mediocre car is more appealling than a well engineered one.) Nobody has even address this yet. You're too hung up on the emotional aspects of this analogy. Stop with the emotional personal responses and stick with the arguement.
The emotional aspect of why beautiful girls are better than ugly ones IS the entire argument. There's no rational reason why beautiful girls are better than ugly girls; no complex math formula or scientific experiments. So if this is akin to American cars, as you've pointed out, then the entire thread is emotional and personal, just like lusting after Heidi Klum instead of that Harry Potter bitch from The Weakest Link. Why else would you argue against American cars with such fervor? Why else would these "dumbasses" (myself included, apparently) argue otherwise?

Hope the wheels arrive soon.
 
Scud said:
ME.

Cause I seen the swedish Motorjournalen where they INTERVIEW the Owner and founder of koenigsegg and there he even unlocks a safe and take out the original BLUE prints they bought from Cosworth.
your right. but it is similar to the ones that they used for racing in mustangs in the past i believe. I was under the impression that they got the engine out of the 'stang a few years, its what turned me off of the koenigsegg for a month or so.
 
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