Clarkson's love for the Marina

Jos J.

Jos J.

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Start's here?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UJfbunHVuc[/YOUTUBE]
 
I knew this clip but just realised something: the marinaowner.....who wants to bet that guy is in the marina owners club?

So after all these years their lives crossed again when top gear started killing marina's :hmm: ...........:drums: Its feaciesguy!
 
Given the general waste inherent when the US or UK government attempts to do something that is rightfully the domain of private industry plus allowing for inflation - yes, that's about right.

This is one reason why the US (and UK) governments should not own things like car companies.
 
My Dad purchased a Marina brand new in '77, cos he thought a cheap little run about would be a good idea..
It lasted 2 months before he got shot of it, he thought it was the most uncomfortable , unstable nasty little heap he had ever driven.. !!!
?40 Million to develop it..what the hell did they spend it on ?!!
 
Damn I was hoping he was going to say "...in the WORLD." at the end but he didn't.
 
Austere said:
I don't think I've ever seen a car with three wing mirrors before...
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The wing mirrors are probably optional extra dealer fitted items (as was common on 70s cars), the door mirror was probably fitted later by an owner to improve visibility as door mirrors were more commonly fitted.
 
efoolution said:
40 Million Pounds in development ... in 1970 ... that?s (roughly) 360 million pounds in todays money! That can?t be right, can it? That?s 400 million Euros ... 580Million Us$ ... to construct the Morris Marina ... :blink:
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Spectre said:
Given the general waste inherent when the US or UK government attempts to do something that is rightfully the domain of private industry plus allowing for inflation - yes, that's about right.

This is one reason why the US (and UK) governments should not own things like car companies.
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$400 million doesn't strike me as excessive, especially for a car that was aiming to be a huge mainstream success (even if it wasn't). You occasionally see hints in the motoring press at the cost of developing new cars - the first Ford Mondeo was rumoured to cost Ford $6 billion. Ford's current annual research bill is $8 billion.

I can't find specific costs for current cars, although I want to say half a billion for a Focus/Astra. If I'm bored I'll search through mags for a citation tomorrow.
 
The 1997 Mazda 626/Capella only cost $240 million to develop. The original LS400, adjusted to 1998 dollars (more or less the same as today, thanks to deflation) would have cost only $350-400 million to develop if it had shared no components whatsoever.

The Mazda Demio, which shares parts with the 626 and other Mazdas, only cost $72 million to develop in 1997. This is an example of what the Marina should have cost as very few of its components were new and it drew heavily from the British Leyland parts bin.

Reference: http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_shrinking_time_japanese/

The current investment required to develop a base C and CD-class model such as the Toyota Corolla and Camry, Honda Civic and Accord or Mazda Capella is estimated at $200 million to $250 million (using a $1/125 Yen exchange). The sum includes new tooling for a single plant. It does not include supplier costs, which generally are passed onto the carmaker through the life of the model. Japanese car companies still outsource 60% to 70% of componentry by value.

The figure also does not include derivative models for sale in single-country markets and multiple body types. For instance, cars like the Honda Domani (a domestic derivative of the Civic) and Mazda Demio (a derivative of the Revue/121) would cost between $50 million and $75 million if they were developed today. Likewise, a hatchback or wagon, built off a base sedan and sharing a lot of componentry, could cost around $50 million.
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Remember, the Marina was a parts bin car. There is no good reason why it should have cost more than a quarter to a half of what it did to develop. Jeremy had it right - they spent too much developing the Marina, which was supposed to be more of the old parts bin stuff, and not nearly enough developing the Allegro, which was supposed to be new and different.

By comparison and from the same era, the 1968 Jaguar XJ6, which didn't rely nearly as heavily on the BL parts bin as the Marina, cost Jaguar a bit over ?6m. The mass revision and Pininfarina restyle of the XJ6 into the Series III ten years later cost ?7m - and the end result was a car that didn't even share most body panels with its predecessors, let alone the majority of parts underneath. (Cite:
http://www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?xj4storyf.htm )

So, yeah, I'm pretty sure the ?40m spent to build the Marina out of parts was a waste compared to the underfunded relative, Jaguar, coming up with an almost all new sedan for ?6m. (Jaguar and Rolls were always the neglected and underfunded relatives in the BL hegemony.)

Edit: To make matters worse, the Marina wasn't even really new - it was just a stretched rebodied Morris Minor. So they didn't really start with a clean sheet in any respect... http://www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?ado28storyf.htm

So where did all the money go? Into typical government waste and inefficiency, that's where.
 
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Love to know where 40 million came from, i believe it was 28 million, the car was also rushed into production with 30 months from conception.

It was also only to be a stop gap model too, by 76 it was due to be replaced by ADO77 which would be more modern in comparison and use the new o series engine.

But BL went belly up in 1975, therefore this car was developed and produced before the company was nationalized, to be honest if the marina had not sold in the numbers it did then the company would have been buggered way before then.

However Marina was spot on for the time, the British buyer wanted a good simply engineered car, remember the marina outsold the allegro 2:1 and was always in the top 5 through out its life.

Remember ford blew 1 billion on the ford escort mk5, that was a far worse car than the marina that only came a good car when they blew some more money to turn it into the cossie!!!!!!

Allegro was the car that really buggered up BL it was originally quite a nice design, unfortunately the engineers literally engineered the design out of it as they made changes to the engine bay and bulked out its shape. Then there's that bloody steering wheel.
 
So, basically, you're claiming that it 'only' took ?28 million to build a terrible car (made out of the Morris Minor) that was worse than the XJ6 (which only cost ?6 million to make) and claiming that this was somehow good????

Also, psst - government involvement in BMC/BL started in 1968, not 1975.
 
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PSST that was when they were still private companies but recommended to merge in 68 by the then industry minister one Tony Benn. The government did not take over until 75. One very good thing that came out of the merger was the leyland national, far ahead of its time, but top gear have trashed a version of that and its another story

Also the 28 mill included a utter gut and rebuild for cowley where they make the mini today, so its nice to know that the money was not completely wasted.

Also lets debunk the myth that the marina shares any parts with the minor, it doesn't, that was the original plan, but like so many things in life it did not come to pass, the tooling was knackered and any parts that could have been used were not, yes the suspension is lever arm which is the most common mistake but they are not interchangeable.

In the end its a car, does the a to b bit, at least mind does reliably and I'm pleased i own one, an uncle of mine owned a series 1 v12 xj and that was a fantastic car it burbled with the most incredible engine and christ could it mo sat in the front when he buried the foot to the floor, made one hell of an impression on myself as a 10 year old
 
I just went back and looked into the aronline.co.uk article (linked above) again - seems that they put the Marina's development cost at ?21 million, not including factory renovations (the cost of which would have been spread across many models).

Still... ?21 million for a car that was completely, utterly and totally crap, versus ?6 million for the pre-BL-developed Mk1/Series I XJ.... Even if you want to be charitable and go with the later almost-complete redesign of the XJ into the Series III, that cost a mere ?7 million almost decade later. If you give the Marina even more slack and include the all new factory at Castle Bromwich that they built for the Series III and XJ-S into the price at ?15.5m, it only totals about about ?23m in 1978 dollars. If you then adjust the Marina's 1971 development cost to 1978 pounds sterling (to correct for inflation according to this UK Parliament paper on currency inflation from 1750-2001), the XJ was still cheaper; the Marina cost ?51 million to make in 1978 pounds sterling.

So, again, where did all the money go????? Just what, exactly, did they spend all that money on, if it wasn't the typical government waste and ineptitude? It certainly wasn't the car.

Also, if you don't think the UK government had a hand in the Marina's design, you're smoking something. Sure, they didn't take over total management until 75 - but there's no way that the government wouldn't have had their fingers in that pie, not when they had "encouraged' the formation to begin with and wouldn't let them close plants to cut costs.

It's the same kind of thing that happens when the Mafia 'leans on' a business - sure, they don't run it, but if they tell you to do something, you do it because they'll make you hurt if you don't. Same thing with the UK government and the pre-takeover BL.

tigon20 said:
Also lets debunk the myth that the marina shares any parts with the minor, it doesn't, that was the original plan, but like so many things in life it did not come to pass, the tooling was knackered and any parts that could have been used were not, yes the suspension is lever arm which is the most common mistake but they are not interchangeable.
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I submit that if you pull up your parts catalog and that of the Minor, you will find that a great many of your part numbers are the same. And don't you share engines and transmissions with other Morris models? Including the A-series engine with slight modifications?

In the end its a car, does the a to b bit, at least mind does reliably and I'm pleased i own one, an uncle of mine owned a series 1 v12 xj and that was a fantastic car it burbled with the most incredible engine and christ could it mo sat in the front when he buried the foot to the floor, made one hell of an impression on myself as a 10 year old
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And yet you bought a Marina. How the HELL did that happen?????
 
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Cowboy said:
I knew this clip but just realised something: the marinaowner.....who wants to bet that guy is in the marina owners club?

So after all these years their lives crossed again when top gear started killing marina's :hmm: ...........:drums: Its feaciesguy!
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Haha, I thought I saw a Morris Marina Owners' Club logo on his shirt...
 
Okay here goes. Hands up i was 7 mill out.

The government did not get involved until 1975, your thought is based on a hunch with no actual evidence to support it, until 75 BL was a stock listed company so its shareholders came first, though if you were a stock holder at the time I'm sure you would have been very pleased its performance.

The marina used the following engines 1.3 a series and a+ in the ital, 1.8 b series and then the 1.7 o series in the marina and ital and 2.0 o series in the ital.

Minor used the following 918cc sidevalve, 803 cc a series, 948 a series and 1098 a series, so yes it was a version of the engine, but the 1275 first appeared in the mini cooper.

The 1800 was also used in the landcrab, and also the mgb, the marina tc used a version of the MGB engine but the tune of the 1800 was unique to the marina, this was not exceptional then as the later o series marina engine was a lightly de tuned version of that used in the Princess with a smaller carb 1.5 inch versus 1.75( mine has the larger princess carb fitted) and the same would be true with the 2.0 used in the ital to the princess.

So the only other morris model the marina shared an engine with is the 1800 lancrab, and its replacement which became the princess, but that was only produced for 6 months.

With regards to same parts numbers i do amit there are one or two, but not the hundreds that you seem to be suggesting.

if there are please list em as it will help me in the parts search.

As for how did the hell i end up with a marina, i cant afford to run a jag, so i run a car that is easy to maintain relaible and fun to drive, yes it is fun to drive, a couple of months ago i went to a car show up in scotland, long drive, started back late and had the most fun driving than i have had in a long time, its no jag not even going to try and calim that but its not terrible, have any of you ever been in a marina, at least my opinion on the jag is an informed opinion i have experienced an xj have you experienced a marina, or is it the experience of top gear......
 
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