Covid 19 CRISIS

Dr_Grip

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@gaasc in a fair world with a direct link between cause and effect, I would agree. And countries like France, Israel, and Italy who went with a covid pass early on show that it works to a certain degree. Sweden, the US, and the UK show that if you let enough people die, you will get the same result as with vaccination and covid pass combined at some point.

The problem is that cause (not getting vaccinated) and effect (you die miserably) are not directly linked. Germany is fucked up by anti-vaxxers now to a degree that a there's a very tangible spillover effect: A friend of my wife (wheelchair user, triple vaxxed, super cautious about covid) broke his upper leg bone when he slipped moving from his wheelchair to bed. This is a complicated surgery that includes a lot of blood loss, so it requres an ICU stay. He had to be transferred to another town because his home town, eventhough it has a major teaching hospital, ran out of ICU capacity due to covid.

So Germany's at a point where:
  • Anti-Vaxxer assholery actively threatens other people who need an ICU bed for non-covid reasons
  • Politics have changed rhetorics to "the dangers of breakthrough infections", meaning that anti-vaxxers now argue a covid pass would be unfair towards their civil rights since "vaccinated people also spread the virus".
  • Just this morning, another minister who is part both of the outgoing and incoming coalition (the SPD's Heiko Maas) said that "the coronavirus is not dangerous enough to warrant mandatory vaccination"
In a way, as hard as it is, I understand why I go to a concert tonight but my friends in Bavaria go into lockdown. I just wonder why it's the anti-vaxxers rioting in the streets and not the vaccinated majority who got shafted by German politicians again and again, and now looks ahead at another Christmas in lockdown.
 

DanRoM

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The problem is that cause (not getting vaccinated) and effect (you die miserably) are not directly linked. Germany is fucked up by anti-vaxxers now to a degree that a there's a very tangible spillover effect
If it were up to me, non-vaccinated Covid patients would be at the low end of the priority list. To the point of switching off their ICU machinery when it's needed for another patient.
I do realize though that excluding people who take unnecessary risks from medical care sets a non-acceptable precedent with respect to just about every kind of sport injuries, for example.

I just wonder why it's the anti-vaxxers rioting in the streets and not the vaccinated majority who got shafted by German politicians again and again
Firstly, the silent majority sees that gathering in large groups to demonstrate is an unhealthy idea right now. Secondly, the people do lack the degree of organisation necessary to orchestrate meaningful protests - and that's because virtually all non-right-wing-eso-nazi-fringe organisations (political parties, unions, ...) are on board with the need to fight the pandemic and therefore do not want to stage protests.
Also, this is Germany, not France. We do not stage protests in general...

Generally speaking, people are fed up to the brim. Everybody sane realizes that it's the non-vaccinated people who put us in this mess. And at the same time we see that the governments on federal and state level are too afraid of this (very vocal) minority of what, 5 to at most 10% hardcore antivaxxeresonazis, to do something about it. By now a majority of the population even supports a general vaccination mandate - the support for job-specific vaccination mandates (which to me feel like looking for scapegoats) is even higher.

If it were up to me, we would...
  • put serious fines to showing a fake vaccination or test certificate, and on top of that, damages payable to those deceived/put in danger by that action
  • introduce a general vaccination mandate for everyone old enough that a vaccine approved for that age group exists, with the exception of people having valid medical reasons (to be confirmed by multiple physicians including a public health officer);
  • send the youth welfare office on the asses of parents who deny their children the vaccine, on the grounds of neglecting their child (not only regarding the Covid vaccine).
  • close down or at least seriously fine any business, including private schools (hello Waldorf schools), that does not enforce the anti-Covid rules
  • effectively ban voluntarily unvaccinated people from practically everything except getting groceries and medical care. Want to be a part of society? Get vaccinated, it's that simple.
Again, I do realize that some of these probably go too far. So this illustrates just how frustrated I am, that I am letting my standards go this low.

But, beyond writing angry letters (that nobody would read) to media and/or politicians, what can I do?

The recent federal election has only added to the established problem of the federal government acting too slow or not at all. The outgoing goverment led by Angela Merkel just keeps the chairs warm for their successors, traditionally not doing much of anything because they lost their mandate to govern. Also, by letting problems pile up, they give those problems to their political rivals to fight with.
The incoming government is not yet ready to work, they are still in coalition talks. So, we have a vacuum at the top in a time we really could use some decidedness.
 

narf

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The recent federal election has only added to the established problem of the federal government acting too slow or not at all. The outgoing goverment led by Angela Merkel just keeps the chairs warm for their successors, traditionally not doing much of anything because they lost their mandate to govern. Also, by letting problems pile up, they give those problems to their political rivals to fight with.
The incoming government is not yet ready to work, they are still in coalition talks. So, we have a vacuum at the top in a time we really could use some decidedness.
A lot of those decisions are Ländersache, and most of the Länder have regularly sitting governments. There's no good excuse for them to be acting this late, the expert community (including Merkel) have been pointing at R>1 and new vax doses approaching zero for literally months.
 

Dr_Grip

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If it were up to me, we would...
  • put serious fines to showing a fake vaccination or test certificate, and on top of that, damages payable to those deceived/put in danger by that action
  • introduce a general vaccination mandate for everyone old enough that a vaccine approved for that age group exists, with the exception of people having valid medical reasons (to be confirmed by multiple physicians including a public health officer);
  • send the youth welfare office on the asses of parents who deny their children the vaccine, on the grounds of neglecting their child (not only regarding the Covid vaccine).
  • close down or at least seriously fine any business, including private schools (hello Waldorf schools), that does not enforce the anti-Covid rules
  • effectively ban voluntarily unvaccinated people from practically everything except getting groceries and medical care. Want to be a part of society? Get vaccinated, it's that simple.
Again, I do realize that some of these probably go too far. So this illustrates just how frustrated I am, that I am letting my standards go this low.
I don't think anything on that list "goes too far". In fact, this is a very reasonable and considerate list of actions to take immediately.

Also, regarding the "risk-taking" part: I think that refusing the covid vaccine is different from taking part in extreme sports, smoking tobacco, or smoking crack: It is more comparable to missing your regular dental check. And if I don't go to the dentist each year and I got a cavity, I will lose healthcare coverage for fixing that in Germany. So a precedent for not taking a reasonable medical precaution (which is different from taking an more or less unreasonable risk) having an effect on how the medical system treats you is established.
 

Momentum57

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Note my father was pissing and moaning about his upcoming colonoscopy. I told him dad come on you did this before bla bla he then said "I dont want them to find anything because I dont want to go into a hospital during covid". I wager there are alot of people who are still delaying needed medical procedures.
 

narf

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Note my father was pissing and moaning about his upcoming colonoscopy. I told him dad come on you did this before bla bla he then said "I dont want them to find anything because I dont want to go into a hospital during covid". I wager there are alot of people who are still delaying needed medical procedures.
Definitely, either on their own like your dad or involuntary because of an overloaded medical system. Even here in .de with a fairly robust medical system there have been lots of delays and cancellations of procedures during previous waves, and we're back in that mess now.
 

GRtak

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This is fu*king annoying.


 

Dr_Grip

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Getting back to the role of mass media in absolutely fucking Germany up, let's look at a factual report (not an op-ed) from Germany's public broadcaster on childhood vaccination in Israel:
fqf.jpg


"Corona-Vaccination in Israel

Now the Children are in line

Israel tries to keep up it's high vaccination pace. From today onwards, children can be vaccinated as well. But the measure is debated, many parents are sceptical.

The girl seems to be frightened while she is being jabbed in the upper arm. Her mother sits next to her and tries to calm her down."

While there is nothing factually wrong with this reporting, it is worded and puts an emphasize on fear, on traumatizing children, and on doubts about the vaccine's safety in a situation where Germany has one of the lowest vaccination rates among "western" democracies.

Freedom of the press is an important good, but it comes with a responsibility by journalists to do a proper job. This is not even "false balancing", this is a traditional emphasis on Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. The same story could be framed as "up to 50% or parents want to vaccinate their kids against covid, beating Germany's vaccination rate for over-12s." But it is not.
 

eizbaer

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While there is nothing factually wrong with this reporting, it is worded and puts an emphasize on fear, on traumatizing children, and on doubts about the vaccine's safety in a situation where Germany has one of the lowest vaccination rates among "western" democracies.
The exact same wording was used in a radio-bit I listened to this morning, including the nice gloomy tone of voice to help the message along... I couldn't help but think "wow guys, way to frame this, unbelieveable"... morons.

edit: work just posted new rules - and the company vaccination centre will re-open early december for first, second and third shots open to all employees.
 

Blind_Io

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Note my father was pissing and moaning about his upcoming colonoscopy. I told him dad come on you did this before bla bla he then said "I dont want them to find anything because I dont want to go into a hospital during covid". I wager there are alot of people who are still delaying needed medical procedures.
Not just medical procedures. We've done a minimal amount of motorcycling this year because there's no beds if we have a crash. I'd literally be left to die from an accident because some jackhole decided there's 5G microchips in the vaccine and now needs 100% O2 and a ventilator.

I found myself telling someone recently "there are two ways to increase the vaccination rate, one is to increase the number of people vaccinated. The other is to wait for the unvaccinated population to get smaller."
 

Momentum57

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"By the end of this winter everyone in Germany will either be vaccinated, recovered, or dead," Health Minister Jens Spahn told reporters at a news conference on Monday in Berlin
 

Dr_Grip

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"By the end of this winter everyone in Germany will either be vaccinated, recovered, or dead," Health Minister Jens Spahn told reporters at a news conference on Monday in Berlin
Sadly, this will not be the case since "to protect the healthcare system" and "save lifes" they will impose another several months long lockdown on the vaccinated as well. So with the unvaccinated not dying, vaccination rate not increasing, and politics being afraid of vaccine mandates, they will go through the same cycle of rising infections, overloaded ICUs, and a winter in lockdown again in fall 2022. And 2023.

EDIT: This is not me being negative, it is what many of the scientists German politics refuse to listen to since the pandemic started say. One of the red lines ("no excess deaths/no overloading of healthcare systems" or "no vaccine mandates") has to fall, otherwise Germany is doomed to a circle of winters in lockdown.
 
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Blind_Io

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I've said it before and I will say it again. The vaccine is healthcare - if you opt out of the healthcare system, you opt out of the entire healthcare system. Please be kind and dig a hole before you die.
 

ninjacoco

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The girl seems to be frightened while she is being jabbed in the upper arm. Her mother sits next to her and tries to calm her down."
Good frickin' grief, no crap, it's a needle. I'm (allegedly) a grownup and still took a Puffalump along to the first couple jabs to distract me from "oh no oh no oh no, needle." That's *any* needle for me, though. That's not special to the COVID vax and it's stupid that folks are presenting it as such.
 

eizbaer

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had my seasonal flu shot monday yesterday... honestly didn't even feel the needle at all. same with the earlier vaxinsssss :dunno: just don't look and don't let the doc tell you when they're going for it - i feel most of it is just the anticipation (i.e. thinking "this must hurt", so it will), making that article and corresponding radio piece dumb all over again.
 

DanRoM

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I have been stabbing myself multiple times per day for over a decade now and I still wince whenever someone draws my blood (which also happens every three months).

But it's not bad, really.
 

Dr_Grip

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Sadly, this will not be the case since "to protect the healthcare system" and "save lifes" they will impose another several months long lockdown on the vaccinated as well. So with the unvaccinated not dying, vaccination rate not increasing, and politics being afraid of vaccine mandates, they will go through the same cycle of rising infections, overloaded ICUs, and a winter in lockdown again in fall 2022. And 2023.

EDIT: This is not me being negative, it is what many of the scientists German politics refuse to listen to since the pandemic started say. One of the red lines ("no excess deaths/no overloading of healthcare systems" or "no vaccine mandates") has to fall, otherwise Germany is doomed to a circle of winters in lockdown.
Follow-up to this: Since ze Ekonomie is the most important thing to German politics, one by one they are falling in line behind a vaccine mandate.
 
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