Covid 19 CRISIS

[Dr_Grip]

Point of all this being that you shouldn't trust China. At all.

Give us a reason to trust the US. Just one. I'd love to trust them but between "America first", five eyes, ridiculously oppressive TSA screenings, a long history of meddling with other countries' affairs and now sending money men with suitcases of cash to snatch away other people's medical supplies I just have no reason to.

Together with the Red Army, the US saved us from Hitler. And I am grateful for that. But since the 80s at least US foreign policy has been a complete and utter shitshow.

 

[GRtak]

 

[narf]

the Chinese govt is evil and basically just killed tens of thousands of people worldwide (and counting).

The Chinese government is not to blame for the world's slow response. I'm not only referring to the US here, Germany kept doing large events despite knowing about local hotspots like Heinsberg, for example. It's much more pronounced in the US though, in no small part due to the difference between leading a country as a nerd and as an alternative facts based reality TV personality.

 

[DanRoM]

@LeVeL, when the two Corona threads were merged, you requested - or rather, demanded - to keep politics out of the merged thread, and now you do nothing but throw political shit into it. As always, your hypocrisy is staggering - you don't even notice that most people here agree with you about China's government.
Just quit it. Or open up a new "China is evil and the US is the epitome of good" thread in the political section if it pleases you.

 

[SirEdward]

Have you ever heard of a concept called "freedom of speech"?

Freedom of speech is not free of side effects. With it, great freedom is given to idiots and dangerous people too, so some form of containement of disruptive behaviours or complete stupidity should be put in place when this freedom is granted. If too much disinformation is spread, people will have real trouble in forming ideas that are in accordance with reality. As we can clearly see. If, on the other hand, those containment measures are not put in place, to save the possibility for some individuals to get filthy rich or powerfuò, there will be consequences, sooner or later.

US intelligence now believes that China and Russia are actively trying to undermine the West through misinformation campaigns.

They are quite late at noticing the obvious.

Looks like a few people here are eating it up and actually think that the Chinese government are the good guys

Reading the comments, I can't see many people saying that China is "the good guys". The worst they say is the US is losing credibility compared to China. Which is true. But even if they were eating up, it wouldn't be anything different than those who, until basically yesterday, were saying that Trump was the next good thing after fire was invented.

By all means go ahead and buddy up to China instead of the US. I look forward to not paying for your national defense.

When your enemy tries to separate you from your allies, the best favour you can to it is to throw a tantrum and tell your allies to f*ck off because you don't need them.

China is an authoritarian, oppressive, Communist regime. I don't care how quickly they can ship cheap plastic crap to you - doesn't change the fact that the Chinese govt is evil

Yes, it is. And the US Government is not reliable.

and basically just killed tens of thousands of people worldwide (and counting).

That it is responsible for many of those deaths, yes. That it did that intentionally, no. They may die too to this virus, you know.

Also, do not forget how big a role have played the incompetence, the unpreparedness and the bias towards (a clearly fragile way of making) money and economics of the other leaders. They too are responsible for a big part of the deaths.

Point of all this being that you shouldn't trust China. At all.

Nobody is trusting China; everybody knows that it is necessary to maintain good relationships with Countries that can crush you, particularly if there is no one else protecting you from their influence.

 

[prizrak]

No, but we do allow a news agency, various radio hosts, and idiot pastors to run around spreading misinformation. If our population were intelligent enough, this wouldn’t be a problem but we’re not and clearly falling for bullshit.

So you are against freedom of speech then?

Freedom of speech is not free of side effects. With it, great freedom is given to idiots and dangerous people too, so some form of containement of disruptive behaviours or complete stupidity should be put in place when this freedom is granted. If too much disinformation is spread, people will have real trouble in forming ideas that are in accordance with reality. As we can clearly see. If, on the other hand, those containment measures are not put in place, to save the possibility for some individuals to get filthy rich, there will be consequences, sooner or later.

When you start deciding who can say what you no longer have freedom of speech. The few controls that we have over that freedom are about direct calls to action or things like defamation. Even then they aren't defaults, they require a court's decision.

That it is responsible for many of those deaths, yes. That it did that intentionally, no.

They did do it intentionally, they knew it was highly contagious and more than a little deadly but actually told the WHO the opposite so yes it was fucking intentional

 

[GRtak]

In an amazing display of ignorance the dolt known as the Governor of Georgia admitted to only recently learning of asymptomatic transmission

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics...virus-sanjay-gupta-anderson-cooper-nr-vpx.cnn

And in a bid to prove Georgia's new motto "Idiots love company"



https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...-remarkable-ignorance-on-the-coronavirus.html

Trump keeps saying the line: "It's like, if you sneeze, I'd probably get it. Who ever heard of a thing like that?


Science is bad m'kay?


EDIT:

According to cell phone tracking data, people are still moving around to much. This will just keep spreading because of this.

 

[SirEdward]

When you start deciding who can say what you no longer have freedom of speech.

I have not said that the solution is to decide what can or can't be said.

The problems I highlighted are woefully real, and you can see them in action in the US right now. How many people are completely detached from reality, because they were freely exposed to idiocies for most of their lives?

This did happen because too many were free and unchecked to spread whatever idiocy, for money or manipulation reasons. That problem is not solved through Freedom of Speech, rather increased, and yet it needs to be addressed. So if Freedom of Speech is to be saved, something must be done to avoid these kind of drawbacks.

They did do it intentionally, they knew it was highly contagious and more than a little deadly but actually told the WHO the opposite so yes it was fucking intentional

They did not let the virus out intentionally. They lied intentionally on the data about the virus. It's really not much different than the stupid Leaders who kept negating and lying on the numbers and playing it down in order to save an unsavable economy.

 

[prizrak]

I have not said that the solution is to decide what can or can't be said.

That is exactly what you said, you might not see it but

something must be done to avoid these kind of drawbacks.

Is literally deciding who can say what, there is no other way to do what you want to do.

You handle lies with fact checking, you handle bad ideas by providing good ideas.

How many people are completely detached from reality, because they were freely exposed to idiocies for most of their lives?

That's totally their right. It's up to every individual to decide for themselves what they choose to believe.

 

[Momentum57]

They did not let the virus out intentionally. They lied intentionally on the data about the virus. It's really not much different than the stupid Leaders who kept negating and lying on the numbers and playing it down in order to save an unsavable economy.

I'm not even sure that the Chinese government got true numbers from their people in those provinces. What I can tell you is the blame game internationally is kinda useless. We should see cooperation instead we see useless travel bans and posturing over international aid.

Play the ball where it lies.

 

[SirEdward]

Is literally deciding who can say what, there is no other way to do what you want to do.

This is only true if you think there are only two possible arrangements. I think there can be other possibilities.

But then again, if you think that there cannot be other ways, feel free to keep that stupid drawbacks you can't avoid.

What I can tell you is the blame game internationally is kinda useless. We should see cooperation instead we see useless travel bans and posturing over international aid.

I agree. There is not getting out of this alone.

The travel bans won't work because people can enter from other places who are not blocked. The only way to keep the virus out in a region now is to isolate it entirely while taking the virus out from that regions. Once it's out, keep everything closed (to people, at least) and be sure to quarantine anyone who enters. The moment you reopen without controls, the virus gets back.

Many Countries are using this crisis to further up their political agendas and to gain Power and Influence. Part of this cannot be avoided, also because, for the greatest part, it is done through donations and help (example: China sending medical personnel and equipment to other countries - the US did that too, before being engulfed in the crisis).

The blame game, on the other hand, is futile. Nobody will really care as long as people will keep dying around them.

 

[prizrak]

This is only true if you think there are only two possible arrangements. I think there can be other possibilities

What other possibilities are there?

feel free to keep that stupid drawbacks you can't avoid.

Yes freedom comes with drawbacks, “a ship is safest in the harbor but that isn’t what ships are built for”.

 

[SirEdward]

What other possibilities are there?

Strongly teach children (and adults) how to think critically, how to verify if something is true or not; teach them how to recognize if something is, can be or is not true; teach people to shun liars and manipulators. Do not go so far as to overdo this part.

Build a culture that despise selfish lies and dishonesty, one that favours honesty, competence, clearness. Do not go so far as to overdo this part.

Write laws that rewards adherence to reality and improving the life of everyone, laws that punish selfishness, lies and, above all, the enriching of a few to the endamaging of everyone. Punish harsher if this is done willfully. Do not go so far as to overdo this part.

Punish those who use blatant lies to gain money, power and/or advantages, punish those who use manipulation and false information to convince people of something not true. And I mean through courts and Justice. Do not take away their Freedom to Speak, make them accountable for the lies they tell. Do not go so far as to overdo this part.

Yes freedom comes with drawbacks, “a ship is safest in the harbor but that isn’t what ships are built for”.

A ship is safer if governed by wise men and not thrown into a hurricane without a valid reason.

 

[prizrak]

Write laws that rewards adherence to reality and improving the life of everyone, laws that punish selfishness,

I was with you until here, this is what USSR tried to do. You do not punish individuals for individualistic behavior.

lies and, above all, the enriching of a few to the endamaging of everyone. Punish harsher if this is done willfully. Do not go so far as to overdo this part.

Punish those who use blatant lies to gain money, power and/or advantages,

There are already laws that cover pretty much all of this.

punish those who use manipulation and false information to convince people of something not true.

Nope, people have to decide and think for themselves.

Do not take away their Freedom to Speak, make them accountable for the lies they tell. Do not go so far as to overdo this part.

Again those already exist in various forms.

A ship is safer if governed by wise men and not thrown into a hurricane without a valid reason.

In this metaphor a ship is an individual, so if the captain (generic you) decides to sail into a hurricane that’s their right.

 

[Alasondro Alegré]

The most hated town

in the world.

 

[SirEdward]

I was with you until here, this is what USSR tried to do. You do not punish individuals for individualistic behavior.

Not individualism; selfishness

In this metaphor a ship is an individual, so if the captain (generic you) decides to sail into a hurricane that’s their right.

We should raise captains that know better than to waste their ship for no reason. Maybe captains that have the tools and knowledge to understand and choose what's best for them.

---

Italian update

The numbers are stable in the Country. In my region, the data seems to suggest a slight decreasing trend.

What is a good news is the reduction in the number of ICU patients both in Italy (that's the first time) and in my region (that follows a small decreasing trend).

The number of tests raise, but the new cases appear to be less severe. This is a good indicator.

Let's hope things will get better and the plateau we're in now starts going down.

 

[gaasc]

Not individualism; selfishness

Who gets to dictate the line on that one?

Also, I suppose it would be meaningless to point out that @DanRoM is right and we have veered rather sharply onto politics again, yes?

 

[SirEdward]

Who gets to dictate the line on that one?

Individualism stops when it knows its actions would cause more damage to others than good to itself.
Selfishness is individualism who willfully goes past that point and accept an evil to others for a smaller personal gain.

Selfishness loves to disguise itself as individualism.

Also, I suppose it would be meaningless to point out that @DanRoM is right and we have veered rather sharply onto politics again, yes?

I think he is right. I tried to go back IT with the italian update in the last post. I think you are also right in pointing it out and I will try to go back again.

 

[jack_christie]

Point of all this being that you shouldn't trust China. At all.

Be a long time before the rest of the World trusts the US again.


Most of the criticism Chinese statistics are beginning to be echoed in US numbers. Impossible for them to be correct.

FT wouldn't use UK numbers yesterday because they were too low.

 

[jack_christie]

Probably should take this as very early research -

Tuberculosis vaccine ‘potential game-changer’ in Covid-19 fight

Countries with high BCG vaccination rates have fewer coronavirus deaths, study shows

A study indicating that the BCG vaccine for tuberculosis could help to protect against Covid-19 is “a potential game-changer” in global efforts to curb the pandemic, according to a leading immunologist.


The research indicating that countries whose populations have high levels of BCG vaccination had significantly fewer Covid-19 deaths was the most significant development since the virus has spread, said Prof Luke O’Neill, who has specialised in study of the vaccine at Trinity College Dublin.


While he stressed the research was largely a statistical one and so came with caveats, there was a case for authorities moving to provide a BCG vaccine top-up for everybody age over 70. “This is feasible and should be considered. It doesn’t mean we change behaviour, such as physical distancing and washing your hands,” he said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...tial-game-changer-in-covid-19-fight-1.4220383


Lt. Gen. Russel Honoré, on Jared Kushner: "I don't believe he knows what the hell he is talking about."

In Desperation, New York State Pays Up to 15 Times the Normal Prices for Medical Equipment

State data shows that New York is paying enormous markups for vital supplies, including almost $250,000 for an X-ray machine. Laws against price gouging usually don’t apply.

https://www.propublica.org/article/...-times-the-normal-price-for-medical-equipment

Ten Weeks to Crush the Curve

Harvey V. Fineberg, M.D., Ph.D.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2007263?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=pubmed