Denmark vs. Islam

mgkdk

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This is my first post in the political section and it's about something I have thought about a lot lately for obvious reasons.
I have spent a lot of time writing this because I don't want to come of judgemental and all hateful and borderline racist, but I feel it hasn't helped enough, so I'm sorry if I hurt someone by writing what I am about to write. (I'm also sorry for how long this is)

It all started on September 30th last year when a Danish newspaper (Jyllandsposten) published 12 drawings of the prophet Muhammad and they wrote about the freedom of speech and western democracy also applied to religious feelings.
Then on October 9th a spokesperson for the Islamic community said that it was to exploit the freedom of speech and a democratic suppression of Muslims in Denmark.
On October 14th about 3500 people participate in a peaceful demonstration against Jyllandsposten in Copenhagen, and the paper now employs a security company to ensure the protection of their workers. Also the same day 2 of the artists has to leave their home to go into hiding because there have been death threads against them.
October 19th 11 ambassadors from different muslim countries ask for a meeting with the Danish primeminister, because they want him to take distance from the drawings, but he declines with reference to that the Danish government has no means of influencing the press.
In November and December a delegation from the Islamic community go to the middle east and talk to leading religious people and politicians to get the Islamic world to protest against Denmark and the drawings.
This is where it all starts to go wrong, because not only did they bring the 12 drawings they also took drawings showing Muhammad as a paedophile and in humiliating positions and claming that this was how Danes saw the prophet. WTF, this is people who get money from Denmark because they are refugees and they then do all they can to destroy the country.
In December the Pakistani party Jamaat-e-Islami put out a reward of 50000 Dkr to anyone killing one of the artists behind the dravings. Also there are demonstrations in Pakistan. 22 former ambassadors write to a newspaper that the primeminister should have met with the Muslim ambassadors, but he refuses the criticism. The Arabic League's foreign ministers criticise the Danish government for the poor handling of the case.
In the prime ministers new years speech on the 1st of January he doesn't mention the drawings direct but he says something about Denmark having a healthy tradition of asking critical questions to authorities, both political and religious.
On January 10th, with permission from Jyllandsposten, the Christian Norwegian paper Magazinet publishes the drawings.
I don't remember much happening there (maybe the Norwegians can enlighten me) and there is still not anything of significance in the way of media coverage and protests.
But then?..
On the 21th of January the international joining of Muslim scholars encurage the leaders in Denmark and Norway to firmly act to these attacks on the muslim community and the prophet. If not the joining will be forced to encurage millions of Muslims all over the world to boycott Danish and Norwegian product and activities. That was a declaration publicised in Cairo.
Then on January 26th the first signs of a boycott of Danish products shows in Saudi-Arabia and the Saudi Arabian ambassador in Denmark is called back to discuss the drawings. And on the 27th Arla (big dairy company) report about losses of 10 million Dkr a day and Novo (medicine producer) start to feel the boycott too.
Then things really start on the 28th where a lot of Islamic countries declare that Denmark should have condemned the drawings on the same time as a survey says that 79% of the Danish population says that the prime minister shouldn't apologise for the drawings.
On the 29th some embassies close and other are called to the head-of-state. A group of young Palestinians burn the Danish flag and Novo experience massive boycotts. An editor from Jyllandsposten was interviewed live on Arabic tv and apologized but it wasn't translated?..!
Jyllandsposten also apologized on paper for hurting their religious feelings, but that wasn't enough.

And from here it's just exploded. Extra news, it's all over the papers, there has been threads of suicide bombers, Jyllandsposten got a bomb scare, people saying one thing to the Danish press and another to the Islamic and people are beginning to boycott Islamic stores.
And then today the drawings were published in France, Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain and Island (and some more I think) (And from what I've heard the French were a little rude) good to see that the Europeans are sticking together. :thumbsup:

What I don't get is this; IT'S JUST 12 DRAWINGS?????!

So what do you think, have you heard about it at all?
 

swek

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Yep, the German media made a big fuss about it. Okay, Jyllandsposten might be a nutty right wing paper but the reaction they are recieving is just fucked up. Demonstrations, are okay but the whole "Denmark is the root of all evil" crap is getting out of hand. As if this represents your country as a whole. I don't really get it and so do other Euros it seems.

If you think they fucked up take the issue to the appropriate place. The Danish courts.

Do I claim that the Iraqi Gouvernment is responsible for the kidnapping of two German contractors the ugly video they made and their possible beheading ? No, so you just shut the fuck up okay.
 

hajj

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I think this whole story makes the picture of the Islam even worse. It is just religious extremism in my eyes.
Can you post a link to those pictures? CNN only shows them scrambled and a quick search on google wasnt succesful earlier :thumbsdown:

I am a Christian and we are not allowed to have pictures of god, but I dont care, if someone creates pictures or sarcastic images of god. I neither feel attacked nor moved in any way by these.
If you dont want to post those pics please send me a PM with a link.
 

mautzel

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hajj said:
Can you post a link to those pictures? CNN only shows them scrambled and a quick search on google wasnt succesful earlier. If you dont want to post those pics please send me a PM with a link.

Just want to make a judgement for myself before commenting on that, from what I know and see at the moment, the reaction of the Islamic community appears exagerated to me.
 

mgkdk

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I don't have a problem with the way the Danish government handled this, I have a problem with the reactions and the way it's exploded now, why not in September when the drawings were published first :|
 

hajj

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mgkdk said:
I don't have a problem with the way the Danish government handled this, I have a problem with the reactions and the way it's exploded now, why not in September when the drawings were published first :|
I think they appeared in a Norwegian newspaper in january.

[edit] Not a really clear picture but at least something...
0,1307,OID5196114,00.jpg
 

mmap

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Honestly I think that the islamists (sp?) should get their heads out of their arses and smell the flowers. I'm with the danish prime minister on this one.

I doubt the cartoons were meant to be insulting and do fit very neetly into the whole "freedom of speech" thingy. Surely every religion in the world has had cartoons made about it at some point. I really cannot imagine why someone would make such a big deal about something that happened in another country (and a very different culture).

They should really realise that while this sort of behaviour might not be allowed in their culture and country, it is allowed in other countries and thats that, no use crying about it.
 

Lilleput

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The only thing that really pissed me off about this was when a Islamic Imam (Priest or something) whos living in denmark with a danish passport, he works for the Danish Government (For a prison) and he and alot of his friends flew to Iraq or some other sandbox to show the supreme court fake pictures that had never been in any Danish newspaper of Muhamed as a pig. They also lied about how bad the danish government treated them, and that the pictures was only brought in the paper to anger the Islamic comunity so that they could be identified by the Goverment and put in jail. If they're so miserable why dont they move to Sweden or some other neighbor of Denmark.
 

mautzel

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Thank you very much, Swek. Now, who could possibly have any problems with these drawings? There's nothing even slightly insulting that I can see in them - referring to the standards in Denmark and western Europe, and that's where they were published and to whom they were targeted to primarily! Just my opinion.
 

Firecat

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I have a problem with the drawings. This newspaper obviously had an agenda and wanted to incite some kind of negative reaction from the muslim community, otherwise why print them?
 

mautzel

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Sure they awaited negative reactions and wanted to provoke, but I think the actions which are taken against Denmark now are standing in no relation to the initial reason for them. (I've got especially a problem with people handing over false and untrue informations to their gouvernments or parties setting out rewards for killing the cartoonists)
 

///M

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The only thing out of this whole situation that was good was the succesful boycott. That firm is really suffering, and the middle east has finally shown it can use Capitalism to their advantage. There have been countless calls to boycott a country's products in the middle east, but this is the most succesful one I've seen.

I think the pictures are messed up, and were only printed to get people angry. That's fine and dandy by me in terms of freedom of press, I don't expect, nor do I want an apology from the Danish government. I do think muslims are taking this a bit too far with the rioting and threats and what not. I say keep boycotting, it's your right, and it's really hurting some Danish firms bad, worse than any silly flag burning demonstration.
 

///M

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Oh yeah, for people who are saying how is this wrong, it's a form of hate speech. That surely doesn't mean the newspapers need to be blown up or whatever, but it needs to be criticised in the same way the anti-semetic bullshit coming out of Iran is being criticised. Ignoring the situation and hiding behind free speech isn't going to solve anything.

These other newspapers that published the pictures are idiots. There is such a thing as crossing the line, and I'd expect European countries to know that more than anyone else. Oh well, I'm sure those firms are hurting more and more because of the boycotts.
 

cvrefugee

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Hate speech is still a form of free speech, and it's protected speech ...at least in the U.S. Why do you think the KKK can have their little ghey parades? Hate speech is still free speech.
 

Z102

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I don't see anything in those drawings that I haven't seen 100 times in newspapers, only with Jesus and other icons of Christianity instead of Muhammad and Islam. And it's no big deal, at least for me. But it seems to me that among the Muslim community there are a few people that need to stir hate among their own people. It's very sad :(
 

swek

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///M said:
Oh yeah, for people who are saying how is this wrong, it's a form of hate speech. That surely doesn't mean the newspapers need to be blown up or whatever, but it needs to be criticised in the same way the anti-semetic bullshit coming out of Iran is being criticised. Ignoring the situation and hiding behind free speech isn't going to solve anything.

Huh, you do know the difference between press and government ? I ask you, how does this reflect the views of the Danish people or their Gouvernment on Islam ? Why should they be made responsible for the admittedly provocative carricatures published in one of their newspapers ? The reaction Danish people and firms are recieving from is completly blown out of proportion.

I say it again. If you think that's inappropriate take it to the danish courts.
 

///M

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No need to take it to any courts, I'm just stating the double standard that exists when dealing with the media on both ends. Anti-zionist media in the arab world is criticised as being anti-semetic, and the world cries about it. Now, when something angers the muslim world, and muslims react by praticing their rights to not buy something, the finger is still pointed towards the middle east.

Hate speech is hate speech, and to simply say it was a joke is ignoring the situation as a whole. And I'm the biggest proponent for a 100% secular society, believe me. I commend the Danish government for their response, but at the same time I'm commending the Arab public for their response in not purchasing Danish products.

On the other hand, the idiots that are burning the flags and making threats are no different than the dumbass that drew those cartoons. All they're doing is fueling the fire between European-Muslim relations.
 

zenkidori

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Firecat said:
I have a problem with the drawings. This newspaper obviously had an agenda and wanted to incite some kind of negative reaction from the muslim community, otherwise why print them?
Um, so TF what? It's called free speech. Those kinds of cartoons run in papers across the US on a daily basis, satirising and making fun of any number of religious, political and celebrity icons from all corners of the globe, since when does that justify violence or the threat of it?

On the other hand, the idiots that are ... making threats are no different than the dumbass that drew those cartoons.
actually they are different, they are quite worse!

It's one thing to have an opposing viewpoint, or disagree with something, it's quite another to condemn a person and incite violence because they don't agree with you. This is why a good portion of the non-Islamic world has a dim view of Islam. These are actual citizens going nuts here, not just some crazy douchebag in a cave somewhere. When people from your own city, or somewhere you have been or know people, people who seemed reasonable get all crazy like this, of course people are going to think they're all nutters!

If they cartoons ran made fun of Bush you'd all be laughing, and when republicans got up in arms you'd all say they were overreacting and being evil and childish, how is this any different?
 
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