Denmark vs. Islam

BerserkerCatSplat

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Firecat said:
and on a side-note....I do have a problem with depictions of Jesus and Moses as well (in film, cartoons, or whatever...positive or negative).

Wait... you don't think they should be depicted anywhere, no matter the reason? Yikes. Do you tell off people who wish you Merry Christmas, as well?
 

Firecat

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Let me put it this way. When you think of Moses, what image pops into your mind? Charlton Heston?
 

Firecat

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Why is that?

Anyway, it matters in the sense that it's projecting a false image. Perpetuating a lie.
 

zenkidori

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And so what? There are tons of false images projected of anyone barely famous, get over it. It's no reason to get all angry and violent and overreact in such a way.

You can't be trusted because your religion says that no depictions are allowed of Mohammed or God period, I'm not sure if it's actually a sin, but either way it's ingrained into your way of thinking, wheras the larger populous of the world would not agree and thus are free to make whatever artistic depictions they like. How can you expect anyone in your position to be object?
 

Firecat

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Firstly, I haven't gotten angry or suggested violence...and I don't believe i've overreacted in any way

Secondly, this is relating to Islam...so I think my input is very necessary. Objectivity shouldn't even be an issue. Unless only people who aren't muslims can be trusted on this issue?!?
 

zenkidori

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I wasn't saying you had gotten violent, that was directed towards the persons originally referenced, and you if you condone it, only if.

If you believe that it's wrong to portray a holy person in any artistic way PERIOD then no, your input cannot be considered, because by all rights you should be outraged at a cartoon promoting Islam as well. The argument of free speech and what is an acceptible reaction to said speech cannot be considered objectivly in your eyes. Free speech is free speech, religious overtones or not.
 

Firecat

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zenkidori said:
I wasn't saying you had gotten violent, that was directed towards the persons originally referenced, and you if you condone it, only if.

If you believe that it's wrong to portray a holy person in any artistic way PERIOD then no, your input cannot be considered, because by all rights you should be outraged at a cartoon promoting Islam as well. The argument of free speech and what is an acceptible reaction to said speech cannot be considered objectivly in your eyes. Free speech is free speech, religious overtones or not.

So only people that feel the way you do can be considered objective and have an opinion on this subject? Thus eliminating the need for any debate.
 

Zuhaib

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zenkidori said:
You can't be trusted because your religion says that no depictions are allowed of Mohammed or God period, I'm not sure if it's actually a sin, but either way it's ingrained into your way of thinking, wheras the larger populous of the world would not agree and thus are free to make whatever artistic depictions they like. How can you expect anyone in your position to be object?
Islam is the largest religion in the world and fastest growing in the United States and else where. So the larger populous you speak off is false.

Next, yes Islam teaches us to not show images of prophet Mohammed (SAW), and of all the prophet before him. But what is at heart here is not just that, it was not just an image of him, it was an image depicting him in a very low forum. And the images was an attack at Muslims as an whole, showing that our leader does these nasty things, then these Muslims are the same. This is something that any man, of any religion, should be offended off. People here in the states would get mad as hell if i took an cartoon of MLK and showed him as a Drug selling, Thug who pimps girls in the streets of Harlem. What is wrong with that? Is that not the norm, at lest that?s what the music videos tell me black people are doing. But its not true.

With that said, i do protect freedom of speech, i also protect that if your going to use that right, be prepare for me to do that same. Which means i am going to speak up against it, i am going to boycott your good or whatever non violent ways its going to take to make you understand what your doing is what i don?t like.
As for the politics of it, i do see a big miss management of the Dutch government. They should have distance themselves from these cartoons and said the blame should go on the newspaper, but the PM did not and its his fault. And the Dutch companies losing money, and jobs, they should go to the newspaper and tell them how they feel about it. Now these nut jobs talking about attack the paper or government are just that nut jobs. But people must also understand that people in the middle east dont know about democracy, all they know is there own government. And with that, they know that nothing can be printed in the press without the governments ok, so to them they think the government is backing it. Its why president Bush makes a point to them to say where the US stands on Muslims in the United States, because that is what they understand.
 

zenkidori

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Zuhaib said:
Islam is the largest religion in the world and fastest growing in the United States and else where. So the larger populous you speak off is false.
this statement is false. Islam is not the largest religion, and even if it is the fastest growing, that does not translate into population. The fact is that the vast majority of the world's population does not believe in Islam. Even if it DID, religious arguments fall under free speech. Countries that are not governed by Islamic law(thank god) don't have to abide by anything found in the Qur'an.
Next, yes Islam teaches us to not show images of prophet Mohammed (SAW), and of all the prophet before him. But what is at heart here is not just that, it was not just an image of him, it was an image depicting him in a very low forum. And the images was an attack at Muslims as an whole, showing that our leader does these nasty things, then these Muslims are the same. This is something that any man, of any religion, should be offended off. People here in the states would get mad as hell if i took an cartoon of MLK and showed him as a Drug selling, Thug who pimps girls in the streets of Harlem. What is wrong with that? Is that not the norm, at lest that?s what the music videos tell me black people are doing. But its not true.
This has already happened, there have been tons of satirical cartoons and writings made about Dr. King, Malcolm X and any black leader you can think of, I didn't see entire nations getting up in arms about it, nor were people offering death bounties.
With that said, i do protect freedom of speech, i also protect that if your going to use that right, be prepare for me to do that same. Which means i am going to speak up against it, i am going to boycott your good or whatever non violent ways its going to take to make you understand what your doing is what i don?t like.
As for the politics of it, i do see a big miss management of the Dutch government. They should have distance themselves from these cartoons and said the blame should go on the newspaper, but the PM did not and its his fault. And the Dutch companies losing money, and jobs, they should go to the newspaper and tell them how they feel about it. Now these nut jobs talking about attack the paper or government are just that nut jobs. But people must also understand that people in the middle east dont know about democracy, all they know is there own government. And with that, they know that nothing can be printed in the press without the governments ok, so to them they think the government is backing it. Its why president Bush makes a point to them to say where the US stands on Muslims in the United States, because that is what they understand.
Of course anyone has the right to peaceful protest, peaceful being the keyword here, we're not seeing just peaceful protest.

So you think it's ok for the US government to put pressure on news agencies to retract or redact information or expression because they think it's in the best interests of the country? Sounds like facism to me.

Someone offended your religion? BOO FUCKING HOO YOU PANSY WANKERS! Seriously, GTF over it, Christianity and Judiasm are made fun of CONSTANTLY, this is just a stupid culture of victimization. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's hard when people are trying to justify thousands of people acting like a spoiled child and having no maturity at all.

Again, my ranting is not necessarily directed towards people in the thread, but more the stupid individuals out there.
So only people that feel the way you do can be considered objective and have an opinion on this subject? Thus eliminating the need for any debate.
not at all. Just people who are not tainted by the idea that a depiction of a holy person is wrong or a sin in the first place.
 

mautzel

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Zuhaib said:
zenkidori said:
You can't be trusted because your religion says that no depictions are allowed of Mohammed or God period, I'm not sure if it's actually a sin, but either way it's ingrained into your way of thinking, wheras the larger populous of the world would not agree and thus are free to make whatever artistic depictions they like. How can you expect anyone in your position to be object?
Islam is the largest religion in the world and fastest growing in the United States and else where. So the larger populous you speak off is false.

Next, yes Islam teaches us to not show images of prophet Mohammed (SAW), and of all the prophet before him. But what is at heart here is not just that, it was not just an image of him, it was an image depicting him in a very low forum. And the images was an attack at Muslims as an whole, showing that our leader does these nasty things, then these Muslims are the same. This is something that any man, of any religion, should be offended off. People here in the states would get mad as hell if i took an cartoon of MLK and showed him as a Drug selling, Thug who pimps girls in the streets of Harlem. What is wrong with that? Is that not the norm, at lest that?s what the music videos tell me black people are doing. But its not true.

With that said, i do protect freedom of speech, i also protect that if your going to use that right, be prepare for me to do that same. Which means i am going to speak up against it, i am going to boycott your good or whatever non violent ways its going to take to make you understand what your doing is what i don?t like.
As for the politics of it, i do see a big miss management of the Dutch government. They should have distance themselves from these cartoons and said the blame should go on the newspaper, but the PM did not and its his fault. And the Dutch companies losing money, and jobs, they should go to the newspaper and tell them how they feel about it. Now these nut jobs talking about attack the paper or government are just that nut jobs. But people must also understand that people in the middle east dont know about democracy, all they know is there own government. And with that, they know that nothing can be printed in the press without the governments ok, so to them they think the government is backing it. Its why president Bush makes a point to them to say where the US stands on Muslims in the United States, because that is what they understand.

Just wanted to mention that it is Denmark and not the Netherlands you want to boycott (Wasn't sure if you mentioned the Dutch ironically or accidentally)
 

bone

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don't want to get involved in here, but found a pic of "le soir" where they show the pictures, clearly shows they don't realy want to laught at the muslims, but they just want their freedom of speech

francesoir.jpg

translation of the header: "yes we have the right to caricature a god"
 

Lilleput

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A Swedish newspaper are asking its readers to make their own drawings of Muhamed and they will then be posted in the paper..


Go Sweden!
 

hajj

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Lilleput said:
A Swedish newspaper are asking its readers to make their own drawings of Muhamed and they will then be posted in the paper..


Go Sweden!

Sweden has one of the fastest growing and most unstable muslim societies in Europe, so that could become an interesting sight.

The whole story shows really the lack of understanding that exists in this world. In the western world and in the islamic world. Freedom of speech and freedom of the media is a principle of democracy. I am also happy that religion does not have a major part in our legislation.

mautzel said:
Just wanted to mention that it is Denmark and not the Netherlands you want to boycott (Wasn't sure if you mentioned the Dutch ironically or accidentally)

Yes life is still pretty normal here and this really shows lack of understanding from his side.
Normally the people that do not want to understand or do not care about the problem, scream the loudest against it.
 

Firecat

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So now more pictures want to be made. Perfect. What's the point? It's not about freedom of speech, because legally nobody has said they don't have the right to do so. Their governments aren't stopping them...so what's the issue? They are just trying to inflame the muslims, and if they choose this path....then they deserve what they get. Now I'm justifying violence.

Shouldn't we be trying to bridge the gap between the cultures and promote understanding? I don't think that all these newspapers printing these pictures etc is productive. They are just alienating people.
 

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Well the thing is, palestinians are calling for the eviction of european nationals from their soil. armed men are thretening the EU offices.

Is it fair to blaim governments and the citizens for the actions of newspapers when neither have any say in what is printed and what not??

THe Islamists should just realise that different countries have different cultures (and laws) and what ahs happened is ok in Denmark (and other european countires printing te pistures) and therefore they should just shut up.

If they want to boycot (sp?) companies from those countries then fine, that's their right. But threatening individual, and innocent, people for something htey are not in any way accountable for is just IDIOTIC.
 

Lilleput

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mmap said:
If they want to boycot (sp?) companies from those countries then fine, that's their right. But threatening individual, and innocent, people for something htey are not in any way accountable for is just IDIOTIC.

QFT!


Boycutting companies are in essence punishing people who had nothing to do with the case, 150 people have been sent home from a Arla plant because of the strike. Though the financial cost of the strike are so minute its almost funny, i talked with a spokes person from Arla today and Arlas total export to all Middeleastern countries are 0.7% of their total sales, Arla exports 5 times more to Scotland than to all the Middel eastern countries in question - So the strike is little more than symbolic.
 
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