Denmark vs. Islam

zenkidori

Banned For Trolling
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
4,806
Location
A mile high...and then some
Car(s)
RX-7, Jeep Cherokee
BTW, even if the west is exporting it's ideals, capitalism and it's form of democracy, that does not justify an attack on innocent civilians or inciting violence in an already western nation. The paper is not inciting violence, the Muslims are.
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
///M said:
This isn't about shoving religion down anyone's throat, it's about having some respect and being a responsible journalist.

Getting precious and pissy about "insults" to your religion is exactly like shoving religion down my throat, because it is requiring me to do something other than totaly disregard your religion.

Did you consider my religious views before eating your last bowl of pasta?
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
Firecat said:
You can call me Osama or Justin...or whomever else. But take a look at how I have tried to make my argument and how you have tried to make yours.

You generally argue well, with evidence and logic.
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
zenkidori said:
Do you think Islam is beyond criticism?

No.

zenkidori said:
People weren't just saying, "...hey dude, that picture kinda offends me...could you refrain from doing more?" they were talking about violence before the paper even asked for other cartoons! It's one thing for the Muslim community to come out and say, "we feel this is very disrespectful and we urge those in the Muslim comminty and those who support use to no longer buy this newspaper or it's products", but it's quite another to solicit help from other nations, boycott an entire country and put out death warrants.

Actually, i'm sure many people did try and take a more peaceful approach. However, as always, people prefer to respond (or react) to the extremists.
 

Ultra_Kool_Dude

AWESOME!!!111ONE
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
3,682
Location
Clarkson's House
Car(s)
POWERR!!!
It's against my religious beliefs to post in a forum without using the name "Ultra_Kool_Dude". Therefore I demand that everyone change their name to "Ultra_Kool_Dude" or I will have you killed.
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
fluffnik said:
Firecat said:
You can call me Osama or Justin...or whomever else. But take a look at how I have tried to make my argument and how you have tried to make yours.

You generally argue well, with evidence and logic.

Thank you. I thought so too. But apparently, now that people know that I'm muslim, i can't think for myself and am some kind of brainwashed religious nutjob.
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
///M said:
zenkidori said:
So don't piss Muslims off because they'll cause trouble if you offend thier religion? Sounds more like strong arm tactics against freedom of speech to me.

Again, you're looking at the effect and ignoring the cause.

The cause is unreasoned attatchment to unthinking superstition.

If it can't take satire, it ain't worth a damn.
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
fluffnik said:
///M said:
This isn't about shoving religion down anyone's throat, it's about having some respect and being a responsible journalist.

Getting precious and pissy about "insults" to your religion is exactly like shoving religion down my throat, because it is requiring me to do something other than totaly disregard your religion.

Did you consider my religious views before eating your last bowl of pasta?

I went to a semi-private school. During a weekly assembly, a teacher or student would recite a prayer. I wouldn't walk out, talk, or protest...i'd bow my head out of respect.
 

zenkidori

Banned For Trolling
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
4,806
Location
A mile high...and then some
Car(s)
RX-7, Jeep Cherokee
That was your choice. You could also have done the other things you talked about. Just because you may do so, doesn't mean that everyone else should.
Firecat said:
Thank you. I thought so too. But apparently, now that people know that I'm muslim, i can't think for myself and am some kind of brainwashed religious nutjob.
No, it has to do with you A: supporting violence, and B: being in a position of already thinking it's wrong in the first place. That's like asking a Jew what kind of pork products are the best. If you feel that it's against God's law to make a cartoon of Mohammed in the first place, you can't really be expected to act objectivly, your support of violent reactions is evidence of this.
Actually, i'm sure many people did try and take a more peaceful approach. However, as always, people prefer to respond (or react) to the extremists.
This is the only thing I am responding to. Those who made thier point in a civilized manner aren't even an issue here.

I have enjoyed your input on many other threads, the only reason I asked if you were a Muslim was because I couldn't figure out why you were being so unreasonable and irrational regarding this matter.
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
It's not because of the actual drawings that I'm "supporting violence"....it's the act of deliberately trying to piss people off and ostracize people. You say your comments aren't directed at those trying to make their point in a civilized manner....I feel that the papers taking the route they have are just going to further alienate those peaceful muslims.

and it's not even "supporting violence"...it's more an understanding of it. But of course I hope nothing happens.

If it was about the drawings, than I would have supported violence against you for your pictures...or the cartoonist of the orignal drawings.
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
Firecat said:
fluffnik said:
Firecat said:
You can call me Osama or Justin...or whomever else. But take a look at how I have tried to make my argument and how you have tried to make yours.

You generally argue well, with evidence and logic.

Thank you. I thought so too. But apparently, now that people know that I'm muslim, i can't think for myself and am some kind of brainwashed religious nutjob.

It swings both ways.

Some may be blinded by your professed religion, I'm happy to hear a reasoned defense.

I respect you, based on the reasoned arguments I have seen you present here. I do not respect Islam any more or less than I respect Christianity, Judaism or any other monotheistic religion that claims unerring truth; that is to say, not at all.

I consider "faith" a.k.a. "predudice" as unconditionally bad; it denies evidence and supresses thought and intelectual exploration. I am surprised, and frankly shocked, that you will abandon reason in defence of a folk tale.
 

zenkidori

Banned For Trolling
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
4,806
Location
A mile high...and then some
Car(s)
RX-7, Jeep Cherokee
Firecat said:
It's not because of the actual drawings that I'm "supporting violence"....it's the act of deliberately trying to piss people off and ostracize people. You say your comments aren't directed at those trying to make their point in a civilized manner....I feel that the papers taking the route they have are just going to further alienate those peaceful muslims.

and it's not even "supporting violence"...it's more an understanding of it. But of course I hope nothing happens.

If it was about the drawings, than I would have supported violence against you for your pictures...or the cartoonist of the orignal drawings.
The paper is well within it's rights to do so, and this would be a peaceful protest against strong arm tactics used by Muslims.
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
fluffnik said:
Firecat said:
fluffnik said:
Firecat said:
You can call me Osama or Justin...or whomever else. But take a look at how I have tried to make my argument and how you have tried to make yours.

You generally argue well, with evidence and logic.

Thank you. I thought so too. But apparently, now that people know that I'm muslim, i can't think for myself and am some kind of brainwashed religious nutjob.

It swings both ways.

Some may be blinded by your professed religion, I'm happy to hear a reasoned defense.

I respect you, based on the reasoned arguments I have seen you present here. I do not respect Islam any more or less than I respect Christianity, Judaism or any other monotheistic religion that claims unerring truth; that is to say, not at all.

I consider "faith" a.k.a. "precudice" as unconditionally bad; it denies evidence and supresses thought and intelectual exploration. I am surprised, and frankly shocked, that you will abandon reason in defence of a folk tale.

People see things differently. Some people find answers in some places, others find more questions.

For a long time, people thought that a city called "Ubar" was a folk tale or a myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iram_of_the_Pillars
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
Firecat said:
fluffnik said:
///M said:
This isn't about shoving religion down anyone's throat, it's about having some respect and being a responsible journalist.

Getting precious and pissy about "insults" to your religion is exactly like shoving religion down my throat, because it is requiring me to do something other than totaly disregard your religion.

Did you consider my religious views before eating your last bowl of pasta?

I went to a semi-private school. During a weekly assembly, a teacher or student would recite a prayer. I wouldn't walk out, talk, or protest...i'd bow my head out of respect.

I went to my local public (and excellent) school.

Aged 12, eight of us went to see the head to express our discomfort with attending church services.

After considerable discussion he accepted that our position was honourable, heartfelt and nothing to do with what our parents might or might not believe and we agreed that, provided he could find a member of staff to supervise us, we could stay in school.

More than half the staff volunteered.

I never pretend to have any belief in any religion, nor do I pretend that I consider faith in a belief unsupported by evidence is anything but dilusional. This is not always comfortable, but it's honest.
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
fluffnik said:
Firecat said:
fluffnik said:
///M said:
This isn't about shoving religion down anyone's throat, it's about having some respect and being a responsible journalist.

Getting precious and pissy about "insults" to your religion is exactly like shoving religion down my throat, because it is requiring me to do something other than totaly disregard your religion.

Did you consider my religious views before eating your last bowl of pasta?

I went to a semi-private school. During a weekly assembly, a teacher or student would recite a prayer. I wouldn't walk out, talk, or protest...i'd bow my head out of respect.

I went to my local public (and excellent) school.

Aged 12, eight of us went to see the head to express our discomfort with attending church services.

After considerable discussion he accepted that our position was honourable, heartfelt and nothing to do with what our parents might or might not believe and we agreed that, provided he could find a member of staff to supervise us, we could stay in school.

More than half the staff volunteered.

I never pretend to have any belief in any religion, nor do I pretend that I consider faith in a belief unsupported by evidence is anything but dilusional. This is not always comfortable, but it's honest.

I respect that. Not much to say in response. Lack of evidence doesn't really mean much, in that sense that tomorrow or the next day...evidence may present itself. I'm not sure how many scientists believe that a hobbit like people existed....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

and I'm sure that back in the earlier centuries, if someone suggested travelling to the moon...they'd be put into an asylum and called delusional
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
Firecat said:
fluffnik said:
I never pretend to have any belief in any religion, nor do I pretend that I consider faith in a belief unsupported by evidence is anything but dilusional. This is not always comfortable, but it's honest.

I respect that.

Thank you.

I think it is important that we converse with those we find imponderable; I confess I have no conception of the religious urge.

Firecat said:
Not much to say in response. Lack of evidence doesn't really mean much, in that sense that tomorrow or the next day...evidence may present itself. I'm not sure how many scientists believe that a hobbit like people existed....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

That's exactly the sort of thing that molecular genetics predicts.

I don't believe in the god of Abraham in exactly the same way as I dont believe in the FSM or even the Invisible Pink Unicorn, for whom there is a more reasoned (and funny) argument.

I don't deny that some $DEITY may be found, but I consider it unlikely that it will fit any of the models posited by man in any but the most general terms.

Firecat said:
and I'm sure that back in the earlier centuries, if someone suggested travelling to the moon...they'd be put into an asylum and called delusional

The difference is that as our knowledge increased so did the possibility of Lunar travel, just as ignorance, and the need for a $DEITY to explain the unknown, abated.
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
lol @ the links. Interesting. You know, Santa may exist....there may not be any evidence right now, but I can't say for certain that he won't show up in my living room next year.

The difference is that as our knowledge increased

We continue to change and discover new things and prove past things. I don't think that in my lifetime at least, anybody will be able to prove to me that God doesn't exist and I wouldn't be able to prove that God does exist. I only know what I believe, and it works for me.

I think people use Ockham's Razor to "prove" that God doesn't exist, but I think it can be used the other way as well.....
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
Firecat said:
lol @ the links. Interesting. You know, Santa may exist....there may not be any evidence right now, but I can't say for certain that he won't show up in my living room next year.

Actually he was round here last night and drank sooooo much of my beer that he forgot his hat.
forgot.jpg

I do hope he doesn't get a chill!

fluffnik said:
The difference is that as our knowledge increased
Firecat said:
We continue to change and discover new things and prove past things. I don't think that in my lifetime at least, anybody will be able to prove to me that God doesn't exist and I wouldn't be able to prove that God does exist. I only know what I believe, and it works for me.

Cool, but don't ignore the power of doubt. :)

Firecat said:
I think people use Ockham's Razor to "prove" that God doesn't exist, but I think it can be used the other way as well.....

Ockham's Razor removes the necessity of god, that's all...
 

Firecat

Politically Charged
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
5,730
lol...

Well, it states that everything being equal, the simplest answer is usually correct. So by saying the universe was created by a supreme being, is either a very simple way to look at it...or a very complex way. But considering that there really isn't any testable evidence either way, I guess it doesn't apply.

on a side-note....I've always been interested in philosophy, religions, history, english, art, politics.....science and math never really kept my attention.

Doubt is very powerful. I often examine my beliefs and I end up where am I right now, still believing what I do.
 

fluffnik

Active Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
108
Location
Scotland
Car(s)
ALPINA B10 V8 Touring #036
Firecat said:
on a side-note....I've always been interested in philosophy, religions, history, english, art, politics.....science and math never really kept my attention.

Maths is the root of philosophy - messes with my head too! :?

Firecat said:
Doubt is very powerful. I often examine my beliefs and I end up where am I right now, still believing what I do.

Doubt is not just for Christmas! ;)
 
Top